Go back and reread my first post. In that post I metioned the huge returns of fish to the Columbia. So here I will also say to look at the banner runs of silvers we had, the best runs of kings on the coast in years. Hatcheries did that. I do not like the WDFW at all, but they are between a rock and a hard place. Hunters and fishermen are yelling for more game. Animal rightest are yelling to stop all harvest. Special interest groups are suing over stupid issues, By this I mean other groups then WT. WT and others are saying to fix this, fix that. But what should the state do? They can't please everyone. Not a single group is pouring in the money to help out except sport license holders. When I said WT should work with the state, I mean get in there and help fix the problems, not just point them out over and over. I am sure the state would love for WT and others to come over and say, "hey we have ten thousand dollars, lets fix this damn hatchery up real good." Instead they stand around like county road crews and point to the problem, fix that, fix this, do it now. WT has worked with SPU, Vashon Island groups, and done some wonderful habitat projects. But I see nowhere in their web page any coworking with WDFW on hatcheries. Only lawsuits. I feel some of their efforts and resources should go into that. Quit wasting money on needless studies and suits. But continue to do some beneficial studies like impact and fish counts. I also feel that this pending suit will end before court. But I think it will be because WT is getting so much negative feed back on it. And the likelyhood that the Feds will not go against the state. The state IS putting more geneticially identical fish in the rivers, the Feds don't care where the fish are born, only that they be in the rivers.

big jim,
I really like what you had to say. I got one question. when these groups sue where does the money go if they win? If they can sue why can't every sportsman in the state sue? I hate to see big wigs get fat off of someone else when they didn't deserve it. Look out bob i broke a nail typing on your website im suing.
just kidding

Big Jim

Hatchery production has steadily decreased from highest levels in the late 80’s- early 90’s till today. Yet during years of highest hatchery supplementation the corresponding adult spawning population was some of the lowest on record. Now we have much higher returns yet not much has changed with regard to the way hatcheries do business (except release less fish)

Hatcheries had nothing to do with the larger returns we see now, the ocean conditions in the form of the PDO is what is responsible.

Thanks,Goose.Stick to your guns.Great questions and points.I do not expect to see them answered,though.

Thanks Smalma,I am sure I'm not the only one who enjoys your posts. I do not think your last post was too long.

I also appreciate Ramon's willingness to address the subject,even if in a limited fashion,here with us.

It really is very simple.No hatchery fish,no sport fishing.

Take a look at WT's last post and ask youself how many hatcheries will this effect?10,18,30,39 or many more?

I have not seen anything here that would lead me to believe that shutting down the hatcheries would be good for wild fish.

The hatcheries probably can be improved,but they did not cause the problem and will not fix it by going away.

Globall no one gets any money from such lawsuites. it's not done for monetary reasons. What it does is for action to prevent the continued killing of ESA listed fish. no money changes hands except to lawyers. Hopefully it won't get to that point hopefully WDFW will get their heads out of their***** and develop the plan that was fue over 2 years ago.

This is not about closing hatcheries it is about getting a delinquent government agency that has been dragging it's feet and crapping on ESA INTENTIONALLY!!!!!!!! to develop a plan to minimize their impact on ESA listed chinook... A plan that they said they would come up with but has been ignoreing.

What do you guys not understand about the fact that this is 100% the fault of WDFW??? Their own lack of action brought this uon themselves!!!!!

Have all of you forgotten about all of the terrible salmon and steelhead fishing we had not so many years ago in the late 80's to early 90's. We have a few decent years now and you forget. When the fishing is bad people want to balme it on WDFW and poor management of hatchery and wild fish but when the fishing is good people sing a different song. And WDFW takes credit for good runs.

The Hoh out here is one of the only rivers that is almost all wild all accept hatchery steelhead. Will you guys give credit to hatcherys for the good fishing, is it because of good hatchery practices that the fish have rebounded in the Hoh, well most of the fish anyways.

If hatcherys stopped on all rivers in the sound and harvest was cut back by all parties do you think they would react any differently than the Hoh did. Maybe, Maybe not.

If every river around the state had comprible wild runs to the Hoh would we need hatcherys? Maybe not if we cut our harvest down and the tribes only netted twice a week tops. The Hoh has responded well to this maybe it is a good model to follow. It would save us a lot of money and in the future might make some.

Sure there wouldnt be much fishing oportunity for some years but I bet we would see the best fishing of our lifetimes when fish had a chance to recover. And I bet it wouldnt take as long as some think. All we have to do is give the wild fish a chance.

Rich,I hope I live to see your vision of restored,abundant wild runs on all our rivers.

I have never fished the Hoh and don't know much about it.Imagine the Hoh under this scenario.It is dammed,suffers from major habitat problem resulting from pollution and is subject to overharvest because it is near a major metropolitan area.Twenty years ago a hatchery was built to make up for the decline of the wild stocks due to the reasons listed above.

Would it make any sense to remove the hatchery and expect the wild fish to rebound without having first addressed the original set of circumstances that were killing off the wild runs?

That is the situation many rivers face.Treating them all like the Hoh will not work.We need to address the "other problems" before we eliminate hatcheries.Reform,yes.Eliminate,no.

RA3,this is about hatcheries being eliminated if that is the end result.I am curious if WT had other legal options that would have effectively petitioned the Feds to force the State into compliance with the ESA,assuming that they are actually in violation,without trying to shut the hatcheries down.If so,then I think this is all about the hatcheries.

Superfly,
Put your swollen nuts on some ice....... WSC will take a stance after LOTS of info gathering and discussion of the scientific facts... there are facts to support a myraid of potential stances.... perhaps you would like to join WSC and do some volenteer time to help digest the available info and formulate a plan to help the fish and sportsfisher.

I'm with Leadslinger. I'm not buying WTs spin on this; it's all about closing hatcheries. All I see is WT trying to spank an under-budgeted WDFW into an arena that they have no resource, either staff or money, to make a valid attempt at compliance. WT makes it sound like WDFW is either too lazy or too apathetic concerning chinook to do what is right so the almighty WT is going courageously take it on themselves to kick their ass. Does WT expect someone in a WDFW management position to work on this compliance problem on his off-time? I doubt it considering WDFW's pay scale. Can you possibly imagine how frustrating it would be to work for WDFW? Low pay, the "Peter Principle" in full bloom and all the politics? It is a wonder they can get anything done and my hat's off to all of them. Sure there are problems, but lobbying for more money for WDFW would be a better approach. You get what you pay for.

I think a lot of the upstream migration problems cited by WT for chinook are encountered due to WDFW trying to capture brood stock. Some of these problems would be solved if ALL hatchery chinook were marked, however the co-managers will have none of that. I don't think even WT is arrogant enough to give the Tribes 60 days notice to come into compliance with ESA.

Smalma made a good point, WDFW hasn't been producing fall chinook for years on the Snohomish system yet I have seen no increase in fall chinook. I doubt if the Tokul Creek facility has a significant impact on the Snohomish system fall chinook.

If the diversion dam on Tokul needs fixing I suggest we all help WT have a car wash to raise funds to fix it. Hell, Issaquah is only down the road, maybe they can get their executive director to go for free Krispy Kreams, he certainly has a way with people.

Beezer

AuntyM, perhaps this will provide an answer to your query:

Whether W.T. is right or wrong on this issue, I'm sure that you can understand Ramon's reluctance to get involved in such intelligent, thought-provoking, problem-solving dialog as this.

Aunty,

Obviously I was being a little facetious. My point was, If this discussion is to be truly enlightening and informative, how do terms like "Pussies, Mother f**kers, and blow me" have the same validity as the sane, rational, intelligent responses that were given?

Ramon

You said "lawsuits are expensive, risky, and a lot of hard work"

Why not put the money towards fixing the hatchery at Tokul instead of wasting it on attorney fees.

Aunty,

You should hear me cuss sometime. I've been known to launch into tirades that would make even Superfly blush!

I'm not attacking Superfly personally, just using his posts as an example. Yeah this issue stirs up some strong feelings, and I DO understand the emotions behind it, especially from someone who makes their living through sportfishing.

Let me put it to you this way: Mike Glichrist, Ramon Vanden Brulle, Todd Ripley, Gooose, Stlhdh2o, Quillback, Leadslinger, RichG etc... all presented valid points representing both sides of this issue. NONE of them resorted to name calling and personal attacks. We sportfishers are typically viewed as "Bubba" types (for lack of a better term) to the general public who don't fish, so in a PUBLIC forum such as this where a good cross-section of fishers are represented, why RE-INFORCE that notion?

As you are well aware, once these threads deteriorate into "slam-fests" NOTHING beneficial comes from it (except the "Jerry Springer" entertainment value )

I realize that Superfly is your friend and that you are here to defend him. For that I give you credit, but imagine for a moment that you are Ramon VB and you are trying to clear up some of the mis-information about your organization's position, and someone starts with the name calling. Are you going to want to stick around and verbally spar with them? (then again, you and Stlhdh2o have had your moments :p ) If these WERE Stlhdh2o's posts, would you also staunchly defend his right to express himself in this manner?

If we in the sportfishing community are to have ANY kind of credibility, we need to THINK before we spout off. That's all.

Fair enough.

WHEW!!!

Sheesh I go fishing for a couple of days and look at what happens!
Crap I got tomorrow off...might as well load up the truck again and go off in pursuit of more hatchery summer steelies . Those N.F Lewis ones don't fight at all :p ...very inferior fish ! Oh and they appear to be little tiny runts ! Well time to head to the next very poor run of worthless fish . Oh and Joe remember what I told you a "Honyach" was? Peace Bro!

To everyone who was offended by My langauge I am sorry.
But being a true native of washington state I have seen our fisheries rollercoater over the years and have come to the understanding of what has hurt it the most is Commercial over harvest, poor logging practices, urban sprawl, farm chemicals and last but not least tribal gillnetting. All this aside The state has changed the rules of the road for the timber industry. I use to be a part owner in a logging company and from the time I started to the time I sold my half there were drastic changes for the better of all wildlife, and those who did not like it or comply are no longer in business.
When I left the timber industry to get into the sportfishing industry things were at rock bottom, it was 1997 and we were all feeling the affects of all the above listed problems , but there was light at the end of the tunnel. Now here we are 5 years later and it has gotten dramatically better.
Yes you are right that there is serious problems at some of the hatcheries, so lets take some of that money that you want to spend on lawsuits and spend it on fixing the problem instead of paying attorneys fees.
All I am saying is don't buy into W.T.'s so called wonderful fix it plan because it is very one sided and would take many years and no fishing at all to make a difference. There are ways to use the wild fish for reproduction and stock on there home rivers, these broodstocking programs are working wonderfully in most places were they are, that I believe is the path we should all be looking towards because it is a pretty good compromise.
I belong to several enhancement groups and put my time in out there getting wet cold and dirty. Some of you should try it, it is very rewarding.
I would join the W.S.C. , But what is there agenda exactly? do you guys have a mission statement, if so please e-mail me a copy. I have also sent my Wa. Rep from Vision to W.S.C. Meetings to pass out barbless hooks, Has he made it there? have any members got the hooks? if not please e-mail me and let me know, then I can chastize him if he hasn't.
And Jerry Garcia, I love you man, I just want to know were you guys stand in all of this.
And Ramon, I know you mean well, but lawsuits are not the answer.
Peace Superfly

OK Superfly, who wrote that for you? Check out WSC at the banner next to Teds at the top of the page. Because we are a volunteer group and we all like to fish we try to choose one policy at a time to work on. I think we did a decent job on wild release statewide[ this will reappear for the next major rule change cycle]. We are not a secret society, come to a meeting, get involved, you don't have to be a member to come to the meetings. As I said before we are in the process of developing our next step in protecting and promoting wild steelhead. This is a group thing, if you want to be a part of this get on board. Hooks, what hooks?

superfly

1. some rivers don't have enough wild fish left to start a broodstock and in the case of the Washougal (my home river) the wild fish are all infected with IHN that they caught from the hatchery fish there.

2. wild broodstocks although good for fishing have not been proven at being successful at anything else.

3. wild stocks ALWAYS rebound when hatchery fish are eliminated!

If we want restored and reliable runs of fish there is ONLY!!!!!!!! one way to accomplish that and that is to have healthy unharvested runs of wild fish. PERIOD!!!!! That is the only method that has ever been proven successful.

The Kalama research team is now conducting an experiment with the survival rates of a wild brood stocks. If they find that thoes wild broodstocks can spawn and produce adult offspring that are indistinguishable from the wild fish then and only then will a hatchery ever have been successful.
I am not willing to allow the wild fish to go extinct just so a few meathunters can have hatchery fish to fish for.
hatchery fish are a MAJOR limiting factor to wild fish if not the main limiting factor not a minor deal. I think you are hugely underestimating the negative impact they have..

Jerry, Thanks for the heads up on my guy not showing at your meetings, Now I just have to ask him what he did with all those barbless hooks.
RA3, you and your group are stereotyping anglers by whether they bonk fish or not.The largest user of hatchery fish is the Commercials and then the pet food companies. Far more of these fish are caught by them or surplused then we all could catch.
I probably release more fish in a year than you would ever think of catching. Myself I am all for Statewide release of all native fish.
I maybe keep 40 to 60 fish a year for myself , the nieghbors and family and friends, between hatchery steelhead and springers and sprinkle in a few chrome brite ocean silvers, that is it.
By the way one other rule change that we would need to put in place is to keep the flyfisherman from fishing on spawning fish, I have seen so called "prominent Fly guides" fishing there people on spawning steelhead on several peninsula rivers in late march and april.
Peace Superfly