I feel like I'm taking a risk here after looking at G-Man's 3 page thread about Fraser R. sockeye "fishing." Therefore, some ground rules. This thread is NOT about morals, ethics, or laws. This is about sockeye behavior, to the best of the angler's understanding. Some folks are saying sockeye "bite" the hook or lure; others say they are snagged via "flossing." I've not done this kind of fishing so I don't personally know, and I'm interested in your knowledge and opinions based on experience.

I tie flies for a co-worker who travels to the Kenai R. every year. He and his dad fish for and catch a bunch of sockeye. They regard it as a combo sport and meat trip. I asked him if the sockeye take the fly fair, or are they foul hooked? He said about 1 out of 5 may be foul hooked, meaning outside the mouth. They don't try to "floss." Most of the fish they catch appear to be hooked fair, inside the mouth, but there is no telling what the intent of the fish was.

I said I tie flies for this fishing, but they use what seems like fairly standard drift fishing technique. I tied these flies on size 6 hooks initially, but many straightened out. They use heavy line and leader due to the strong current. I started tying the flies on size 2 bait hooks last year (about the same shank length as the fly hooks), and now the flies last longer. They use a two foot leader and a piece of pencil lead heavy enough to reach the bottom, casting to the edge of the fast current. Because the main current is so fast, the fish migrate near the shore and inside the edge of the fast current.

BTW, they have done rather well using these flies, and fly size and color does seem to matter to their fishing success. Large flies on long-shanked hooks did less well. So, do these Kenai sockeye "bite" flies, or are they all flossed, yet mostly fair hooked inside the mouth?

Please refrain from posting ANY comments regarding the morality, ethics, or legality of this fishery. That was covered in G-Man's thread. I'm interested in the fish's behavior.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I know Salmo is asking for information on sockeye only so please honor his wishes and not get into another moral/ethical debate. So let's see how many adult-type we have. If you stray from the subject---it will be bonk-bonk. No that's not a threat, I mean you will be edited.

Salmo,

I experienced the Fraser fishery for the first time a week and a half ago. I've also been fishing Alaska every June for the last 8 years. I've participated in the Kenai and Kasilof sockeye fisheries. It is my opinion that up there, the majority of these fish really are being "lined". As you said, they travel close to the shore, and the technique involves "flipping" a short cast, keeping the rod tip low, and giving a sharp jerk at the end of a short drift, as demonstrated in Bob's movie.

The Fraser fishery however is quite different. It employs the use of an extremely long leader (up to 10' from what I witnessed), a 1/0 hook with a small corky and a tuft of yarn, and at least 2 oz. of weight (everyone was using Bouncing Betties). The idea is to cast as far as possible out into the river (it's REALLY wide in most places), and let your gear roll SLOWLY along the bottom (hence the need for so much weight). It's a version of drift fishing, but not in the classic sense. For me, using so much weight eliminated the whole "feel" aspect of drifting. When a fish was hooked, the rod would just bend over.

The wierdest part was the fact that almost every fish was hooked INSIDE THE MOUTH! I think I may have foul-hooked 1 or 2 but that's it. If we examine the mechanics of it, it seems like it would be VERY difficult to guide the leader through the small mouth of a 5 or 6 lb. sockeye with 100' of line out in a deep, fast-flowing river! In the Kenai fishery, you're only using about 10' of line, and just enough lead to sink the leader about 1' deep in about 2' of water. It's fairly easy to see where the leader is sliding through the fish's open mouth, coupled with the fact that most of them were hooked from the OUTSIDE of the jaw, in.

I'm no expert on fishing sockeyes in the Fraser, but I do consider myself a very experienced fisherman. I have fished for a myriad of species, using just about every known technique, but I would be hard-pressed to state definitively that the so-called "Fraser flossfest" was really just that.

On a side note, I can definitely see where the main value of this fishery is to put meat in the freezer. My intent was to mainly C&R, but these sockeye seemed to fight about as well as Lake Washington fish. I think the combination of warmer water temperature, and the heavier gear needed, kept the fish from fighting as well as sockeye usually do. On the Kenai, those reds will put most other salmonids to shame with their speed, and pound-for-pound pulling ability.

I'm not sure if I'll be fishing the Fraser next year or not, I guess it all depends on how hungry for the best tasting salmon that swims I get.

I have fished the Kenai, the Russian, the Talachulitna, and the Goodnews for sockeye. In the Kenai combat line, you can't see the fish in the water, but I brought 4 to the bank, all hooked squarely in the mouth. I have no doubt that the people yarding in lots of fish are using lining techniques, but I got my four with a straight drift fishing approach. However, I may have been inadvertantly lining them, we'll never know.

In the others, you can see the fish pods. The way you fish them is to swing the fly in front of the fish, at their level. I have watch these fish move forward and sideways towards the fly, and seen the white inside their mouth as they flared the gills to take the fly. This has been as close as from about 15 feet away, so there is no question in my mind that sockeye will actively take a fly.

Then there's lake Washington, where we troll dodgers and Gamikatsu hooks. The fish actively strike these.

So, in my mind, it's pretty clear that they will bite.

I'd have to say that it depends. There are fisheries that are most definately flossing. Such as the Kenai and Fraser. These are large rivers traveling at high velocity with dirty water. Well at least the fraser is, I've never been to the kenai, but I've seen Bob's video. Baits move fast and even heavy leaders are made almost invisible by the dirty water.

There are also fisheries where the fish voluntarily bite such as Lake Washington and the Harrison River in BC. These seem to be clear water fisheries where the fish have the opportunity to inspect and attack an offering that is presented slowly. Baits of choice being a bare hook behind a flasher or dyed shrimp (Krill) under a float.

It would appear that given the opportunity and right conditions, sockeye will most definately bite. The fact that they are such popular table fare means that opening/waiting for a fishery under favorable conditions may not be feasable. I couldn't imagine even a fraction of those fishing the Fraser crowded into the Harrison, it'd make the Wind look like a zipperlip. A lining fishery may be the least of two evils.

Three friends and I fished the Brooks River in Alaska for Sockeye just last June. I was very interested in this exact topic. A guy who wrote a widely published book, I think it's Fishing Alaska, was of the firm opinion that Sockeye took the fly. He describes the takes he has observed as very, very subtle. Silver Hilton was good enough to lend me some help via e-mail.

We fly-fished and I'd say it was about 50-50 hooks from the outside in and hooks on the insides of the mouths of the fish we caught.

Most of the staff guides seemed of the opinion that getting the fly to the right depth was the most, or only, important aspect and that it was a "lining" deal. Since every fly we threw at them worked once it was gotten to the right depth, either the Sockeye were just ravenous, which I keep reading they're not, or the flies were simply floating into their mouths or being lined into the side of their mouths. I have a sneaking suspicion that "lining" was the most likely answer, but I would bet that some of those fish did take voluntarily, based simply on the locations of the hooks inside the mouths.

I never saw a Sockeye move to take my fly, there were just too many of them (and they weren't snugged up to the the riverbank) to discern which one was doing what relative to my fly. And they all seemed to be opening and closing their mouths all the time.

My experience supports the conventional wisdom that a small, sparse fly worked much better than a larger or more fully dressed fly. Small brassies and sockeye johns were my favorites. My friend had the best luck of all of us on a martin river smolt.

Pound for pound, I'd have to say they were spectacular fish to catch. They had no quit in them and they'd fight and jump and run and fight until you got them by the tail or dragged them onto the bank.

Salmo G

It's me, Cowlitzfisherman! Like I have told you before, on the Cowlitz, we fish coho with jigs every year. The method is somewhat the same because we need to "jerk" the jigs to make the coho think that something is wrong and they want to kill it! Even those we do not use long leaders, it still appears (and looks to the un-knowledge fisherman) that we are snagging them. They, the coho, bit the jig about 90% of the time. Sometimes they do get bit by the jigging method, but what's new in fishing? Some "seasoned fishers" know exactly how to "bit" the coho instead of catching them fairly.

That does not diminish the art of jig fishing for coho just because a few "fishers" have figured out how to snag them. I have never fished sockeye so I cannot be the judge on this thread. You got to tell me, was the flies that you tied for your friends the same # 2 hooks that I gave you?

Good to see you back posting on the board again!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the hook worth the sting of the bait????

Question for everyone that has fished for sockeye in a river. Have you ever seen a fish move to take a fly or are they usually so stacked up that a fly running right into the face of a fish is unavoidable. Just curious if anyone has experienced a vicious strike from one of these guys.

Sturza - While I have never actually witnessed a sockeye undeniably attack a fly and truly believe that a notable percentage of fly caught fish are lined I have definitely seen a sockeye outright attack a small winged bobber with a sparse hootchie.

I was resting this setup in six inches of water near shore one day when a sockeye noticed it from about twelve feet out and like a flash swam in, grabbed it and took off out and up river just burning line from my reel.

That was one native salmon that ended up on my plate as a result of its own undoing.

I catch many sockeye plunking with shrimp. They do bite this setup unless they just happen to drift upstream into it with there mouths open by chance.

I have caught sockeye on the Kenai, Fraser and believe or not of all places on the North Fork of the Stilly .

The fish on the Kenai were all lined . Every one of them .Hook outside the mouth. Like posted above all the fish were right off the shore .

On the high bank side of the river the flies worked best with a short ( 3' ) leader . On the low bank a single plain hook with a long ( 6 to 8' ) leader worked best .

I did find that by using Pink flies I did catch more Dollies ( that would actually bite ) with them .

Like the Kenai the Fraser smoked right along but had much worse vis than the Kenai . These fish were caught incidental to fishing for ( lining ) kings using a long ( 10') leader with a 1/0 hook with green yarn fishing with 3oz cannonballs . All the Sockeye were caught after completing the drift for Kings and reeling in from straight upstream .

This tells me these fish were biting . There was no swing to line these fish at all . This was well in to the retrieve . These fish had to come up from behind the yarn fly and grab on .

The North Fork of the Stilly gets Sockeye for some reason .Who knows why but they show up every year late in to the summer .This is a fly fishing only river in the summer and by the time the Redds show up the water is low and clear .You can easily see the sokeye are very interested in the fly . Often times evey drift they will move to and inspect the fly but will not take it . They seem to be very curious buggers here and can often times bite so well that you will have to leave the hole to find some steelies that can get a chance at the fly .

I have watched this activity for years with this run .

One time (at band camp) after the fly had completed the swing and had much tension on it the fly was only a few inches unde the surface in about 6' of water , I had placed the rod under my arm to dig out a new fly when a sockeye came out of no where and about took the rod with it .

These are some of my encounters with some of the goofiest fish that swim.

Hope this helps.

I've been fishing the Fraser hard for about four years now. The first couple of years I used more Yankee technics than I do now. The first year I couldn't figure out why they used such long leaders and I ended up using five inch leaders with bright red corkies in slower currents on the edge of deeper faster moving water. Guess what, it worked. One day me and a buddy hooked fish after fish and I swear these fish were biting the hook. That same spot gets so much presure any more that I have given it up and now fish much faster and heavier water. So consequently I've adopted the Canadian method of 11.5 foot rod with ten foot leaders. This year I've hooked hundred of Sockeye's and five or six Springs using the long line method. I actually have to say I don't think one of the Sockeye's I've gotten has actually bite the hook. I think if you work the slower waters you can probably get these guys to bite but if you fish all the faster water which the Fraser has a lot of your going to floss the fish. It's pretty obvious that when you toss it out into mid current and all the sudden feel something rubbery on your rod you've just flossed a fish.

Salmo,

Glad to see your still around. The board misses your intellectual comments. My opinion is under certain situations, sockeye will take smaller and sparsely tied fly patterns that are well presented. I also believe once they become sexually mature, they will become more aggressive towards flies drifting through their redds. I believe sockeye are prone to display non biting/feeding situations, even more so than other salmonids. Like most situations, good fishers can and will get sockeye to take their offerings: whether it be a feeding response or out of irritation/aggression who knows. But this method does require more work and skill hence it commonly is not the preferred method.

DaveD

I've hooked sockeye on the Fraser, Vedder, and N. Fork Stilly; my opinion is that the biters were on the Vedder and N. Fork. I disagree with the Reiterman about those Fraser sockeye; line'em up! The water is so brown with so little vis; smokin currents - how could they see those size 14 corkies?

On the Vedder and N. Fork they're definite biters. I've hit them in slow moving deep pools, and in the case of the Vedder, on eggs under a float (fishing for springs, of course, since its not legal to fish sockeye on the Vedder). Pretty tough to line fish that way.

So I think it boils down to visibility; both water clarity and speed of presentation. In the slow, clear stuff, you can entice sockeye to bite. But in large streams with heavy currents and color, the fish are largely uninterested but are so bunched up that they're easy to line.

As far as lining them in (inside) the mouth? There's an old saying among fish biologists - teleosts suck and gape (teleost is latin for bony fish; suck and gape is simply sucking water through the mouth and out of the gills). I think depending upon flow, the size of the salmons mouth, and how fast the fish is breathing, the hook stands just as good a chance of getting sucked into the mouth before the hook set, as getting "lined" on the outside corner. Most of the kings I've hooked on the Fraser were inside the mouth, although I think they're lined. Kings just have big mouths. In fact, most of the sockeye were also hooked in the mouth, but the sockeye really sit on the slow edges of the king water, so the hook is not traveling so fast. When traveling in the main currents of runs, there is probably less chance of the hook passing through a sockeyes jaw so that it can be hooked inside the mouth.

My 02, whatever.

Obsessed,

Here's where the mystery of the Fraser to me comes into play. The first hour or so that I fished, I was using a 1 oz. bank sinker instead of the 2 or 3 oz. Bouncing betty. I could cast just as far as everyone else, but my drift was much faster, about as fast as I normally like my presentations to travel when I'm drifting. A tap on the bottom every 2 feet or so. I didn't hook a thing, even though I too had an extremely long leader tied on (about 8').

The guy fishing next to me was hooking a fish on just about every cast, so I asked him what I was doing wrong. He said I wasn't using near enough weight, and that my drift was much too fast. I proceeded to put on a 2 oz. Betty, and lo and behold, a couple of casts later, I had my first fish! The main thing I noticed was that my gear was dredging along the bottom MUCH slower than I prefer to drift fish. At this speed, logic would dictate that the leader was preceding the weight downstream at probably near a 90 degree angle, not perpendicular to the current which would facililtate the long leader being swept into the fish's mouth more easily.

So, even though the water only had about a foot of visibility, the slower drift speed may have given the fish a better chance of seeing the offering. Color also seemed to make somewhat of a difference. As an experiment, I switched around from red to pink, and finally charteuse. The chartreuse for some reason seemed to work better?

Odds are that the Fraser fishery probably is the flossfest that it has been dubbed, but the circumstances under which I was hooking the most fish led me to believe that it was a distinct possibility that these fish were actually biting.

Those Kenai Reds really loved to "bite" my 2/0 black hook and spaghetti bead. They also equally seemed to like the red and glacial green hooks too!

I truly enjoyed the fella next to me that kept asking what color fly I was using.

Oh, and the "Kenai jerk & pull" isn't needed to hook fish...just helps to drive that hook home once you feel "the bite".

4-Salt

Could be, ultimately you never know. But I think just as plausible an explanation is that dragging the bottom is lowering your presentation to where the fish are. Tinking the bottom with a 10 ft leader in a river going 200,000 cfs; you're probably going right over them. That's what I thought anyway; I agree that staying in contact with the bottom was the way to go.

In the really fast king water, I actually switched from heavy mono to 35lb Power Pro which is much thinner (diameter of 8lb mono). This is the only place I drift fish Power Pro owing to the difficulties in getting the stuff out of snags and ruining drifts if you do leave strands of it in the water (most everyone on the Fraser fished this way). Using Power Pro, the line got down to the bottom faster and stayed there longer through the drift. Given that the leader is 10 ft, I think you still get a lot of swing, and even if you're really draggin and you're leader is straight downstream from your weight, its still probably wagging left and right in the current. Come to think about it, the more you drag, the wider you're leader is likely to wag back and forth. And wagging back and forth may facilitate hookups in (inside) the mouth as oppose to on the side. Ultimately, I think a small presentation (such as yarn only, or a small corky and yarn, 1/0 hooks instead of 4/0s) wagging in front of the fish will get helped into the mouth of the fish by its own breathing (remember the suck and gape thing). All you have to do is cast it out, and run it down along the line of fish. And on the Fraser Scale Bar, you KNEW where the fish were.

ReiterRat probably agrees with you, but when we checked it out last season, he, being a non-Canadian (I consider myself an honorary Canadian ), decided he could get'em using traditional American stuff. He began the day using a shorter leader and a larger spin-n-glo for visibility. Nada. Switched over, and he's into the fish. Ultimately, if you're not lining them, why do you need that 10 ft leader?

If we were forced to use normal gear, maybe we would get biters, they definitely hit in the Vedder and Stilly. But as a slug of 2-300 sockeye move through a drift, you'd probably only see several hooked as opposed to dozens using the long leaders.

I have caught sockeye in the Fraser, the Kenai, the Russian, and the Little Susitna. I agree that clarity and "water size" plays a big role in whether the fish bite. The Little Su is a smaller river, clearer river, and I caught multiple sockeye with a sinktip using the wet-fly swing. The takes were very perceptible -- there is no doubt the fish bit. Ditto on the Russian.

Obsessed,

Makes sense to me.

p.s. parker, I think there's a definite consensus that Kenai fish are lined (but it's still fun), and I'm pretty sure we all know how much of an expert at it you are! :p

We know that sockeye bite real well when they are in the lake. They also bite in the salt - I've caught them before trolling real slow using a flasher and a tiny pink squid with a lot of extra dummy flashers to attract and hold the schools. But they don't seem to bite while in the river, or if they do it's in slack water or if you present your bait real slow, like in a lake. Got a theory for that. Sockeye rear and feed in lakes and in the saltchuck, not in rivers. All they do in rivers is migrate. So perhaps their feeding reflex is not triggered in rivers in fast water traveling areas using conventional drift fishing techniques, and is only triggered in slack water feeding situations, which would explain the hits on real slow or stationary baits. You have to troll real slow to catch them in a lake or in the salt, so why not drift real slow when in the river? Make it look/act like something they feed on in a lake and perhaps these Fraser sockeye will bite it. Just my .0128 cents (.02 Canadian)

Salmo G, I've caught 1 or 2 sockeye can I still give an opinion?

I use about a 10 ft leader and 1oz of lead.
Shane, being 4'3", uses about a 7 ft leader with 1oz of lead. He's even caught them using 5 ft leaders.

Yes, the Fraser water is dark but, they've done studies and fish can still see darker corkies in muddy water!

Another tid bit of information, If sockeye are accidentally being hook "inside" of the mouth because of the current/water pulling the hook through their mouth , then why were some of our fish hooked inside the mouth, in the tip of nose?

Why do darker color of corkies and wool seem to work better than the lighter ones?

As I said in my earlier post, I'm still not convinced we were "just" Flossing them. Yes, alot of them are being Flossed, but what about the others?

Think the fresh water might piss them off?

I believe these, as all salmonoids, are very territorial. They are striking out of aggression.
Kings do the same, if your the 1st to throw something into their hole, they'll attack it!
Of all the salmon I've ever cleaned, I've never, never, found any food in their stomachs. I still check to this day.

Food For Thought?