Not sure how many of you have seen the corral and slaughter technique used at the mouth of Finch Creek (Hoodsport) by the Indians for the purpose of killing hens for their eggs? I was amazed at the deadly efficiency I saw as thousands of fish were basically wiped out and discarded. I understand the federally protected rights, etc. and all that, but it was difficult to watch all these fish killed in a matter of hours for the eggs. Seemed very barbaric as children took old salmon nets and scooped up as many fish as they could pull off the hatchery gates, stomped on their heads and threw them on the bank to rot (that was aside from the finely meshed nets that corraled the entire 'zone', over and over again). Anyone know what the market is for the eggs? I heard the Japanese pay $5/lb. It is wrong and illegal to snag fish, but it pales in comparison to the fishkill I witnessed this week. Btw, I understand this happens every Tues and Thurs, for those who want to avoid it.

And by the way, what this does is contribute to the BOD (biochemical oxygen demand) in Hood Canal, initiating and expanding anoxic conditions that, among other things, kill off bottom dwelling marine life. Conditions were so bad this year that shrimp were severely impacted. So when there is no shrimp season, you know why. Yet you can bet the indians will still harvest their 50%. I say they already killed them and more

I witnessed that madness last year. I was totally appauled the first time I saw it.

That is why I tell people to not venture over to the Zone during the week. Now the bottom in front of the Zone is littered with dead fish.

What do you guys think happens to all the chum that spawn in the cannal tribs??They get flushed out into the canal first high water.They are part of the canals food chain.The indians Leaving the carcassas feeds the shrimp and crab and everything else at that level.Leaving those fish is far better than them removing them for the canal.

Your emotions have more to do with this thread than common sense or science. :

You guys think it is allright for there to be one of the biggest snag fisheries in the state of Washington but wrong for the indians to harvest the fish with nets.

Ltlcleo:

I personaly don't think it matters what their method of fishing. What tickes me off is that it is a commercial fishery (wouldn't have a problem if it was for subsistance) and the wasted carcases. I know they become a part of the food chain, but killing these fish just for the egg is wrong in my opinion.

Anyone seen any dead shrimp on the canal beaches? .

Contributing to the Biological Oxygen Demand(BOD) in the canal? Those nutrients are still pretty much contained within those carcasses....you ever see how long it takes for them stanky things to decompose in water? Sorry but as always the deeper waters of the canal will be replenished with newer waters that move into it every year about this time from the Pacific. Sorry but the only real effect those carcasses wil have is the further production of life in the canal. From microscopic diatoms to copepods to chum fry to more fish, crab and shrimp for everyone.

ltlCleo- You missed the point of the thread?! But since you did reply, do you know the market for the chum eggs - I was just curious what the $$ figure was driving that circus. I fish HP with a fly rod where I hook 99% in the kisser and happen to agree with your comments about the snagging being ugly. I assume you have seen the netting slaughter as well. I would rather we were all required to use hook/line, rather than nets, but hey - I tried to avoid that pointless debate in this thread. Regardless, what happens there on Tues/Thurs is painful to watch, the snagging is also a shame. I cannot comment on the science element of what affect the Indian's 'style' of fishing has on the Canal. I will defer to others on that. There is no doubt a huge # of dead fish in that system, either way. The tossing of fish on the bank after stripping the eggs just seems wasteful to me.

I'm sure the indians would be happy to give you the carcasses if you want them, or to sell them to you if you think that you could resell them.

Line forms on the left.

What, no line?

Hm-m-m-m.

Here are some true economics straight from the Skagit indians. Eggs are worth $4.00 lb now from Chum. They were getting $8.00 last year. The Japanese are their best market. They leave the fish on the bank because the local buyers are only paying $.14 PER FISH, not per pound, for the clean ones and $.08 PER FISH for dark ones. It's sad salmon aren't worth more that $.14 a piece!

I witnessed the netting today. Surprisingly, even with the netting, the hook-and-line bankies caught plenty of fish.

Does anybody actually know for a fact that the Indians are only allowed to net for subsistence? If that's the case, then what is happening at Hoodsport (and elsewhere) is wrong. If not, you can't really blame them, assuming the economics detailed above are accurate.

Well Gooose, I don't agree with you. Ask the shellfish boys at Brinnon what they think about the shrimp situation and anoxia in Hood Canal. And chum dying en masse out on the beach should not be happening and never would happen in a natural system - they would swim upriver, spawn, and die where they would be available to a wide variety of animals and plants as nutrients that would be largely removed before they got into the Canal. This is a blatantly artificial situation and a point source discharge of nutrients that should not be occurring and violates water quality laws - certainly these laws are enforced on everyone else, like commercial fish processors or commercial net pen salmon growers, who would just love to discharge dead fish into the nearest water body rather than haul them away for treatment in a waste facility. These fish being dumped on the beach after the eggs are stripped was not the intent of the decision to undertake artificial propagation in this area - the intent was to have those fish taken away and processed. This is wrong, illegal, and damaging to the ecosystem. DOE and EPA are getting a call from me tomorrow

I know I love to catch more dead chums than live ones. The dead ones fight OK.....I guess.

Instead of chucking the freshly striped chums in to the salt why don't they take them to a river/stream bed where they can really do some good? I am not a scientist, but I think I remember reading some where that dead fish provide much needed food for smolt and fry.

Spawn out,
I would have to agree that aking the chum a couple a miles up stream and depositing them would be better than depositing them on the beach.They would only stay there untill the first gully washer.The chums 0n the canal spawn in the lower reaches,like the first mile or two.You got to remember that the northern three tribs all have natural barriars relatively low on there watersheds.I believe this is one of the reasons that they have a problem recovering from the gross over fishing by the sportsmen in the seventys.

The Hood Canal Enhancement group works with the skokomish indian nation on several fertilization projects just like you mentioned.

They were doing the same thing with the Coho last year,only they were hauling them out into deeper water and depositing them.

You guys would really be appalled at the waste by the american trawlers up north fishing pollack roe for the asian market.We are talking a 100 tons at a time.It was pure wast for the sake of the almighty dollar.

With fish farming eating at the price of net caught salmon maybe someday we will see some changes.Unfortunately what you see with both the white and indian fisheries is more an exersize of the right than it is a means of income.The roe fishery that you are witnessing is probably the only fishery that makes any reel income.If you go prowling around in the comercial publications on the internet you will probably find the seiners encouraging each other to fish every opening just to show the interest,protect that intrest.

Wednesday the netters were going 100-200 yards offshore and dumping the fish overboard. I'd never seen anything like it and it does seem incredibly wasteful. But like a previous poster noted, does anyone want these fish? No. Just to catch/release or in the Indian's case for the eggs. (although I must say the two I did keep were bright fish and the meat was in good condition - really).
This year's run must be huge judging from these large early returns.

I wonder if it is worthwhile to solicit WDFW's approval/guidance on collecting up the carcasses and spreading them around in area streams? I recall an effort last year or the year before where volunteers hauled hatchery carcasses out into area streams and dumped them, to distribute the biomass.

I for one would be very happy to volunteer -- perhaps I could even get our Boy Scout troop involved. I think it would be a fantastic educational experience, as well as a community and ecological benefit. Besides, 10 year olds would love the chance to schlep salmon carcasses around, just like they do down at Pike Place Market .

Regards.

Finegrain
Woodinville

Finegrain,
I think that's a great idea. However, knowing my 9 and 11 year olds, I think the scouts will be shlepping the salmon at each other! Better be ready to duck...

I stopped by there today to fish. I did not see very many LIVE chums. One guy ( I am guessing an indian) pulled his boat right up to the Zone, got out into the water, and started to pick dead chums off of the bottom and put them in to his boat. I wonder what he is going to do with those fish? Good for the smoker??

On Thursday, most of us bank fisherman caught as many dead chum as live ones. The guy next to me -- who was in high spirits, very jovial, and generally very cool -- snagged a pretty fresh female that had been stripped of her eggs. Her meat was pretty pink. He picked it up, thought out loud, "hey, I should keep this for the smoker," unhooked the fish, and lay it at his feet triumphantly. I looked over a few minutes later and he was squinting pensively. He then, rather slyly, kicked the fish back into the water. True story.

Carl, maybe that Indian was putting them in his boat to go dump them out in deep water after reading this thread

I doubt it. He was being too selective.

They're probly some of those $5 fish the uninformed by while passing through the res.

Sinker, that was my second thought. Yummy!

Yeah, that's where they got the models for the "some fish pics..." post <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" />

Easy,

I stopped to look at the 'zone' on Tues, Wed, and Thurs mainly to see how the area would replenish what could only be described as a phenomenal # of fish in front of the hatchery. It did not look to be recovering very well from what I saw and from what you describe. Does it routinely fill back up with #'s like we saw before the netting? I can not say for sure but my guess is they killed close to 10,000 fish or more. In fact, a single netting in front looked to capture 1,000 at a time. Any thoughts on this? My dad has been ill and I had hoped to put him and my 7 yr. old son on the other side of the nasty dog, but am hopeful they can fish in a high volume of fish for a kick like we have.

150 years ago the white man killed the buffalo for only it's tongue and hide, letting the rest go to waste. Now the Indians are killing the chum for only it's eggs, letting the meat go to waste. Kind of a role reversal, don't you think???

What was done 150 years ago was wrong and the white man was eventually forced to admit it. What the Indians are presently doing with the chums is also wrong and they need to admit it also. That is what equality is all about, right??

Nutnbutlip they are projecting a run of 800,000 chums to the canal .....most of these will be returning to either Hoodsport or the Skok. Hoodsport has so far gotten an escapement of around 55,000 chums and have all and more eggs than they need. I'd expect you will have no problem casting into mass doggies this weekend at Hoodsport! Have fun and wear eye protection....serious!

Personally I'm headen for where there are no crowds and plenty of nice chrome fresh winter steel .

I am with you on that, you burn out on the chums after awhile, but there are a lot of people that I know that would love an escort to the dog. A change to metalheads sounds very nice right now. I would fish more for blackmouth now, but I am getting a little worn out with all the work required to get my Tiderunner out of storage, on the water, cleaned up, etc.... Hitting some smaller streams for steelhead woud be a nice shift.

Here's another perspective to consider. Hoodsport hatchery is supported with state funds. It would be a stretch to say it is operated to mitigate for the loss of natural chum runs in the canal. Heck, it has contributed to overfishing natural chum runs with the mixed stock fishing formerly allowed.

The state has a budget crisis of sorts. WDFW and other agencies have been forced to identify steep budget reductions. Just a thought, but why support a hatchery operation to produce a glut of chum, only to have them wasted in violation of state law? (Not intending to be anti-Indian fishing, but state law does not permit non-treaty commercial or recreational fishermen to waste salmon - like by taking only the eggs and not the carcass. This law does not apply to treaty Indians.)

Maybe it would be wiser to spend state funds on a reduced Hoodsport program, commensurate with the benefits actually received. The recreational fishery is probably the biggest return on investment, since the measure is angler days rather than the value of the salmon caught. Whatever the chum contribution is to the non-treaty commercial fishery can't be much, as described by the ex-vessel prices described in other posts. Although non-treaty commercials are required to sell the entire salmon, the buyers are likely only to be wanting the eggs, same as from the Indians.

If the mass wastage is not in the public interest, violates state law, then why not scale back the production to a level that better meets the actual benefits realized? Why produce for a non-treaty commercial fishery at all? Produce for the recreational fishery times two, to include a necessary treaty fishery share.

My random thought.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

To Salmo,

That is a very good thought, but the natural variations in returning numbers make it hard to implement. They probably run that hatchery full throttle all the time, if you know what I mean.

To Salmo,

That is a very good thought, but the natural variations in returning numbers make it hard to implement. They probably run that hatchery full throttle all the time, if you know what I mean.

That was my thought yesterday as i was catching my firsy winter run of the season.We take away the chum and what do they get in return?

That is actually a very good point (grandpa). When I started this thread initially I wanted to avoid the debate over netting (tribal/comm'l v. sportsmen) because there is so much in the archives already. I see waste it is - waste! But, there are a couple of things that I take away from this dicsussion. One, that the Indians are hammering a fishery that may keep them off of other 'more atttractive' fisheries (as sad as conceded that is) and two, the inevitable dicussion about whether netting (tribal/comm'l/whatever) should or should not be allowed at all is perhaps where this kind of thread ends up. That is because, in my opinion, this kind of waste and the waste of any bycatch in general can/should be avoided. The days of using nets for profit/sustinence are largely gone. Give the Indians their 'fair share' but force all netting groups to keep their nets at home and require them to use hook/line like the rest of us. My .02.

I bet the guys at Hoodsport would rather have the rest of the fish die before they get into the hatchery...less fish to surplus. It's no fun throwing 10k fish in a totes.

I apologize if I seem argumentative; I had hoped to provoke thoughtful consideration. It doesn't seem like intelligent fiscal or natural resource policy to expend public funds to create waste, which is what the present level of Hoodsport chum production appears to be. The level of production could be scaled back appreciably and still maintain a large enough return to meet broodstock requirements and a valuable recreational fishery plus some level of treaty fishery. That's why I said the recreational fishery times two. The treaty Indian fishery legally is 50% of the harvestable surplus. The state has no obligation to maintain that surplus at any specific level, particularly if it serves mainly to create and perpetuate a "waste" fishery. There ought to be room for common sense and law somewhere in this equation.

Scaling back chum production at Hoodsport does not increase the treaty allocation in any other fishery as compensation. The treaty fishing right is what it is: 50% of the harvestable surplus, unless specifically adjudicated otherwise (like Quillayute, I believe). If Hoodsport chum production were lower, the treaty allocation would also be lower. I would have to see compelling evidence that the state is obligated by law to fund a fishery that is noted primarily for the waste it generates.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

It seems to me that the fishing in the canal and its tribs is soley a hatchery fishery any more.If you were to do away with the hatcheries and the smolt plants in the tribs there would be no fishing.The rivers are catch and release exept hatchery steelhead.Catch and release with no controls on methods,a treble hook and a worm is just fine but release it.The salmon seasons are planned around the hatchery returns on either end exept for a limited blackmouth season which I believe are for the most part are penn raised.I am not as sure about the blackmouth but with the chinook salmon being listed by the feds I cannot imagine that they would allow a fishery targeting the imature endangered fish?

This makes no sense to me and never has.This is why I get a little uppitty about the snagfest that the canal has turned into.I know and love the canal with all my heart and hate to see it turned into what it is being turned into.Every fall I get to hear about the Quill,Skoke and finch creek atrosities.If you were to take these away none of you guys would even bother with the canal because the state has alowwed the sportsmen,comercial,and tribal fishermen to take so many fish that they are coming close to becoming a thing of the past.I asked Bill Herzog what he thought was wrong with our favorite rivers.He got to fish them in all there glory.His answer in a nut shell was the they allowed way to many fish to be taken out of the systems.I know this because while everybody has been having there fun at "the zone" I have been hiking the rivers counting fish.I have done this for up to ten years now.Instead of admitting this the state is covering it up with these snag shows.The east side of the Olympic mountains has alot more to offer than that and it would seem that the state does not want you to know about it.

This leads me to wonder why?Why is the state afraid to tell the truth about the condition of the Hood canal?I have often wondered what recoarse the Skokomish tribal nation would have if they could put the blame on the state.It was the state that sets the rules controlling logging.It was the state that alowed tacoma power to dam the north fork and continues to liscinse it.It was the state that established the numbers that decide the 50/50 split between the two interests.And those number,in short order decimated the fish stocks in the hood canal.It is the states fault.

I am done ranting.I hope this gives everybody a little bit to think about.I know you guys are ethical fishermen that are just having fun and am sorry for sounding like a jerk,but honestly I have hiked the canyons of the canal since I was a little boy and has brought tears to my eyes as I watch all this happen.

peace

Salmo I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the treaty rights issue. The original treaty language said that the tribes should be allowed to fish "in kind" with the rest of the people. That was interpretted to mean 50% by Judge Boldt. Now a recent ruling has also given them 50% of shellfish. That is all federal law. The fact is , however, in Washington the tribes are also "co-managers" and have an equal say in setting of seasons and other regulations. The North of Falcon process is an allocation process where all user groups have a say and decisions are made as to allocations and seasons.. The tribes absolutely make up what they claim is lost ground. This is happening right now with crabbing. If the tribes don't feel they got their share they can close down other fisheries while they continue to harvest. This is supposed to be a give and take process...not necessarily a straight 50% across the board. Check out the figures for Elliott bay...That fishery was very lopsided towards the tribes...So they may get 50% overall but on an individual fishery like the Hoodsport Chum fishery they might get 80%. In fact they are ahead of the curve on most fisheries...This is a complex issue for the average working guy to spend the time to understand...Keep reading up on this because we are continually losing ground to the tribes. Don't kid yourself on the 50% deal...Join the RFA today and help stop the tide.