Not sure how many of you have seen the corral and slaughter technique used at the mouth of Finch Creek (Hoodsport) by the Indians for the purpose of killing hens for their eggs? I was amazed at the deadly efficiency I saw as thousands of fish were basically wiped out and discarded. I understand the federally protected rights, etc. and all that, but it was difficult to watch all these fish killed in a matter of hours for the eggs. Seemed very barbaric as children took old salmon nets and scooped up as many fish as they could pull off the hatchery gates, stomped on their heads and threw them on the bank to rot (that was aside from the finely meshed nets that corraled the entire 'zone', over and over again). Anyone know what the market is for the eggs? I heard the Japanese pay $5/lb. It is wrong and illegal to snag fish, but it pales in comparison to the fishkill I witnessed this week. Btw, I understand this happens every Tues and Thurs, for those who want to avoid it.

And by the way, what this does is contribute to the BOD (biochemical oxygen demand) in Hood Canal, initiating and expanding anoxic conditions that, among other things, kill off bottom dwelling marine life. Conditions were so bad this year that shrimp were severely impacted. So when there is no shrimp season, you know why. Yet you can bet the indians will still harvest their 50%. I say they already killed them and more

I witnessed that madness last year. I was totally appauled the first time I saw it.

That is why I tell people to not venture over to the Zone during the week. Now the bottom in front of the Zone is littered with dead fish.

What do you guys think happens to all the chum that spawn in the cannal tribs??They get flushed out into the canal first high water.They are part of the canals food chain.The indians Leaving the carcassas feeds the shrimp and crab and everything else at that level.Leaving those fish is far better than them removing them for the canal.

Your emotions have more to do with this thread than common sense or science. :

You guys think it is allright for there to be one of the biggest snag fisheries in the state of Washington but wrong for the indians to harvest the fish with nets.

Ltlcleo:

I personaly don't think it matters what their method of fishing. What tickes me off is that it is a commercial fishery (wouldn't have a problem if it was for subsistance) and the wasted carcases. I know they become a part of the food chain, but killing these fish just for the egg is wrong in my opinion.

Anyone seen any dead shrimp on the canal beaches? .

Contributing to the Biological Oxygen Demand(BOD) in the canal? Those nutrients are still pretty much contained within those carcasses....you ever see how long it takes for them stanky things to decompose in water? Sorry but as always the deeper waters of the canal will be replenished with newer waters that move into it every year about this time from the Pacific. Sorry but the only real effect those carcasses wil have is the further production of life in the canal. From microscopic diatoms to copepods to chum fry to more fish, crab and shrimp for everyone.

ltlCleo- You missed the point of the thread?! But since you did reply, do you know the market for the chum eggs - I was just curious what the $$ figure was driving that circus. I fish HP with a fly rod where I hook 99% in the kisser and happen to agree with your comments about the snagging being ugly. I assume you have seen the netting slaughter as well. I would rather we were all required to use hook/line, rather than nets, but hey - I tried to avoid that pointless debate in this thread. Regardless, what happens there on Tues/Thurs is painful to watch, the snagging is also a shame. I cannot comment on the science element of what affect the Indian's 'style' of fishing has on the Canal. I will defer to others on that. There is no doubt a huge # of dead fish in that system, either way. The tossing of fish on the bank after stripping the eggs just seems wasteful to me.

I'm sure the indians would be happy to give you the carcasses if you want them, or to sell them to you if you think that you could resell them.

Line forms on the left.

What, no line?

Hm-m-m-m.

Here are some true economics straight from the Skagit indians. Eggs are worth $4.00 lb now from Chum. They were getting $8.00 last year. The Japanese are their best market. They leave the fish on the bank because the local buyers are only paying $.14 PER FISH, not per pound, for the clean ones and $.08 PER FISH for dark ones. It's sad salmon aren't worth more that $.14 a piece!

I witnessed the netting today. Surprisingly, even with the netting, the hook-and-line bankies caught plenty of fish.

Does anybody actually know for a fact that the Indians are only allowed to net for subsistence? If that's the case, then what is happening at Hoodsport (and elsewhere) is wrong. If not, you can't really blame them, assuming the economics detailed above are accurate.

Well Gooose, I don't agree with you. Ask the shellfish boys at Brinnon what they think about the shrimp situation and anoxia in Hood Canal. And chum dying en masse out on the beach should not be happening and never would happen in a natural system - they would swim upriver, spawn, and die where they would be available to a wide variety of animals and plants as nutrients that would be largely removed before they got into the Canal. This is a blatantly artificial situation and a point source discharge of nutrients that should not be occurring and violates water quality laws - certainly these laws are enforced on everyone else, like commercial fish processors or commercial net pen salmon growers, who would just love to discharge dead fish into the nearest water body rather than haul them away for treatment in a waste facility. These fish being dumped on the beach after the eggs are stripped was not the intent of the decision to undertake artificial propagation in this area - the intent was to have those fish taken away and processed. This is wrong, illegal, and damaging to the ecosystem. DOE and EPA are getting a call from me tomorrow

I know I love to catch more dead chums than live ones. The dead ones fight OK.....I guess.

Instead of chucking the freshly striped chums in to the salt why don't they take them to a river/stream bed where they can really do some good? I am not a scientist, but I think I remember reading some where that dead fish provide much needed food for smolt and fry.

Spawn out,
I would have to agree that aking the chum a couple a miles up stream and depositing them would be better than depositing them on the beach.They would only stay there untill the first gully washer.The chums 0n the canal spawn in the lower reaches,like the first mile or two.You got to remember that the northern three tribs all have natural barriars relatively low on there watersheds.I believe this is one of the reasons that they have a problem recovering from the gross over fishing by the sportsmen in the seventys.

The Hood Canal Enhancement group works with the skokomish indian nation on several fertilization projects just like you mentioned.

They were doing the same thing with the Coho last year,only they were hauling them out into deeper water and depositing them.

You guys would really be appalled at the waste by the american trawlers up north fishing pollack roe for the asian market.We are talking a 100 tons at a time.It was pure wast for the sake of the almighty dollar.

With fish farming eating at the price of net caught salmon maybe someday we will see some changes.Unfortunately what you see with both the white and indian fisheries is more an exersize of the right than it is a means of income.The roe fishery that you are witnessing is probably the only fishery that makes any reel income.If you go prowling around in the comercial publications on the internet you will probably find the seiners encouraging each other to fish every opening just to show the interest,protect that intrest.

Wednesday the netters were going 100-200 yards offshore and dumping the fish overboard. I'd never seen anything like it and it does seem incredibly wasteful. But like a previous poster noted, does anyone want these fish? No. Just to catch/release or in the Indian's case for the eggs. (although I must say the two I did keep were bright fish and the meat was in good condition - really).
This year's run must be huge judging from these large early returns.

I wonder if it is worthwhile to solicit WDFW's approval/guidance on collecting up the carcasses and spreading them around in area streams? I recall an effort last year or the year before where volunteers hauled hatchery carcasses out into area streams and dumped them, to distribute the biomass.

I for one would be very happy to volunteer -- perhaps I could even get our Boy Scout troop involved. I think it would be a fantastic educational experience, as well as a community and ecological benefit. Besides, 10 year olds would love the chance to schlep salmon carcasses around, just like they do down at Pike Place Market .

Regards.

Finegrain
Woodinville

Finegrain,
I think that's a great idea. However, knowing my 9 and 11 year olds, I think the scouts will be shlepping the salmon at each other! Better be ready to duck...

I stopped by there today to fish. I did not see very many LIVE chums. One guy ( I am guessing an indian) pulled his boat right up to the Zone, got out into the water, and started to pick dead chums off of the bottom and put them in to his boat. I wonder what he is going to do with those fish? Good for the smoker??

On Thursday, most of us bank fisherman caught as many dead chum as live ones. The guy next to me -- who was in high spirits, very jovial, and generally very cool -- snagged a pretty fresh female that had been stripped of her eggs. Her meat was pretty pink. He picked it up, thought out loud, "hey, I should keep this for the smoker," unhooked the fish, and lay it at his feet triumphantly. I looked over a few minutes later and he was squinting pensively. He then, rather slyly, kicked the fish back into the water. True story.

Carl, maybe that Indian was putting them in his boat to go dump them out in deep water after reading this thread

I doubt it. He was being too selective.