This morning Gov. Locke released his version of the 03-05 Budget, which closes three hatcheries: Naselle, Coulter Creek, and Hurd Creek.

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget03/recsum/477rs.htm

What is the matter with this State? Why do the hatchery programs keep getting the shaft. This absolutely pisses me off. The Naselle is an excellent river and to remove the hatchery would be ridiculous!!! Gov. Locke needs to pull his head out of his ass and quit the bull****... We need more funding, not less. The Salmon is the Northwests greatest symbol. Why take away such a great thing?

I believe the state wishes to eventually turn over all fish production to the federal government (via Indian programs). It will be a slow process, but that is what I think these "North of Falcon" proposals and other initiatives are all about.

It amazes me that the only way they know to save money is to cut back and remove services. They have absolutly no idea on how to cut costs from their budget. If i am paying to much interest on something I find a cheaper interest rate. Long distance to much new long distance company. I think they should look at these types of things to save money. Does every building they build have to be a show room . Does every school have to have an archatect design it differently from the last. How bout a cookie cutter design and save. Maybe some laws protecting liability of our state setting some reasonable limits. Time for a new govenor.

Wow, that's really too bad, I like the Naselle fishery a lot, and to close the hatchery down will spell disaster for that river. Cut hatchery programs, cut police and fire jobs, cut education funding, etc,etc, etc.... I've got a better idea on how to save some money..... Let's cut some jobs at the Capitol Building, let's quit taking all of the money that's supposed to be going for fish and game enhancment and just throwing it into the general fund. I mean, look at the outragous prices we pay for our lincenses, tags, etc. Is this what our hard earned money is going to? I'll tell you what, I'm right on the verge of saying "screw the licenses and tags" and "screw the stupid ass rules and regulations" and just start hunting and fishing wherever and whenever I want, keeping the Native fish and the whole nine yards. If our state can't do any better than this, then what is the point of even trying to be a sportsman? What's the point of even trying to put anything back into the resource if it's just going to go to hell anyway?

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/budget03/reductions/reductions.pdf

They saved $1,285,000 by closing hatcheries and allocated $1,000,000 to implement the recommendations of the Hatchery Scientific Review Group whatever those may be.

it is much better to feed, cloth, shelter, provide medical assistance, & entertainment to murderers & rapists for the rest of their lives than it is to buy a $ 50 rope, get rid of millions & millions & millions of dollars worth expenses in a single day than it is to spend a single penny on such a trivial thing as recreation ...

in summary, it is pretty silly to spend money making fish just so people can recreate when there's the serious issue of criminal justice i.e. we need to spend our dollars coddling all these worthless unsalvagleable bags of crap where probably have access to better medical care than most people who log onto this BB

For a different perspective check out the Something to Ponder thread. I don't like the state cutting funding for opportunities, but maybe the funding pie could be shared a little bit more for wild fish programs, something to think about, kinda like seeing the forest for the trees, my opinion anyway.

:p it would be ineresting to know if the money that we all pay for our tags/fees etc could support our hunting/fishing/habitat programs.maybe we should get a law suit against the gov, saying our fees support our progams so spend the money on our interest!

Hey, also read "SOMETHING TO PONDER", right down the page from this, it also discusses abot hatcheries, funding. etc.

I totally agree bigone!!! Our money=our interests!!! Where do i sign?!?

Well at this rate all that will be swimming in our rivers in the future will be chubs, pikeminnows, mud doubbers and suckers!!! Get out your ultralights everybody!!!

This is not an original idea( have heard many fisherman suggest it),what about bringing back the 18$ steelhead punchcard,with the monies to go STRICTLY to the enhancement of steelhead. I realize the arguements against this.Mainly the effects on wild fish. That aside I support this idea.

I think dedicated user fees tied to licenses and punch cards is the way to go. This money should only be directed to sport fishing behalf to include hatchery programs. As it is now our license fees go into the general budget for the politicians and bureaucrats to use as they want. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Contract to a private company to raise our fish. They could do it for half the money and do a better job. Nothing like not having a competitor to keep you honest washington state.

Hatchery Reform is a federally funded look at the hatcheries in Puget Sound, how they're not working and how to make them better

http://www.lltk.org/hatcheryreform.html

Mccallister Creek near Nisqually was shut down on Hatchery Reform recomendation, and they don't raise chinook at Coulter because of it. The Hatchery Science Review Group, the brains behind the project released their first recomendations last Feb

http://www.lltk.org/pdf/HSRG_Recommendations_Feb_02.pdf

THey were for the strait of JDF, South Sound and the Stilly/Sno

Troller, I have never even thought of that idea. Higher private contractors. With all of the money that is spent by the state on fisheries you would think that these guys would use the best method. To me the best method would be private contractors. Theres always somone out there giving a cheaper bid isnt there? I think the people up at the capital have their heads stuck too far up their asses to even consider such a worthwhile method!!

Right on Max!
Cotton or Hemp?

Wow! It's amazing at how poorly you understand our legal system and the reality of the death penalty.

At last check, there are about 1300 inmates on death row in the entire United States. While the average cost to taxpayers for a death row inmate is more that a life-imprisonment inmate due to the lengthy appeals, it still represents a miniscule fraction of the total state budget.

Suspending the legal rights of people just because you want to afford a fish hatchery is example of just how misplaced peoples values have become in this country.

Let's face it, people. If you have voted for repeals of taxes in recent years, you might as well have put the padlock on the hatchery door yourself. If you don't want to pay, don't expect the services.

Well, a couple things about the Naselle and Willapa Bay. First, the Naselle has no dams and very good habitat. It should be raising wild fish for free and not hatchery fish for mega-bucks. Also, the fish raised in the Naselle very rarely contribute to the sports fishery, and instead are caught by gillnetters and sold for 20 cents per pound - these are fish that cost $2 per pound to produce. Finally, a very interesting study was done on Willapa Bay several years ago - someone looked at hatchery returns, the sport and commercial catch records, and returns dating back to the early 20th century and before hatcheries, and determined that even with hatchery supplementation the run size never increased, all that happened was that more coho returned and fewer chum, and the chinook stayed the same. Except now we have 3 hatcheries on the Willapa and spend a million bucks a year running them. This tells me that the ecosystem itself is a limiting factor - not surprising since half the esturary has been diked for agriculture, a large portion has been turned into an oyster farm complete with carbaryl spraying, and spartina has converted much of the rest of it into an exotic jungle not necessarily conducive to salmon production. So yeah, cut our losses, cut the hatchery program on the Willapa, and most importantly cut out the goddam commercial fishery

Oh yeah, and what is the matter with this state is that most of you penny pinchers vote for whatever hairbrained tax cutting measure Tim Eyeman comes up with, and you vote down any measure to raise money. So the Gov is doing what you want - cutting back government. Why aren't you all happy

Anyone remember the budget surplus and the pressure from certain people to spend it or return it in the good times?

So, if they are going to start slamming hatchery doors instead of gradually phasing them out what happens to the native fish? Want to guess who will be able to continue fishing? How many years before the nates are completely gone? In my mind the hatcheries give nets something other than natives to target. I doubt those nets are coming out until there are no more fish.

Well, we can all thank Tim Eyeman, those 30 buck tabs are going to do all all in eventually. time to reverse the boat and head for the ramp.

Anyone who has voted for a Tim Eyeman initiative is partly to blame here. When we cut a huge hole in the state budget like with the tabs initiative, it doesn't take much forsight to see that items with small lobby power will be the first to be removed. I agree there is goverment waste, but if you handcuff our representitives, I guarantee sportfishing, state parks, habitat preservation, game law enforcement, hatchery management,and wild fish survival will rank very low in importance for the average voter. Hell, our state spends half as much as Mississippi on road improvements, yet we have twice the population. If we can't even agree to fix the traffic mess in puget sound, how do can we expect them to keep their hands off our sport. I don't think it is responsible to make cuts before you know how it will effect the entire budget. Nevertheless Eyeman has passed many initiatives by effectively buying votes. If you knew your hatchery was going to be closed would you have voted the same... I doubt it. Remember there is no free lunch.

I voted for all of Eyemans initiatives and he never gave me a dime.You can't honestly believe that giving more of your hard earned dollars to the government is going to fix the problems in this state?They allready get half of your money in some shape or form of another.I would not mind paying more money for improved fishing.But the way it stands now I have not seen anything but decline in our fisheries.

Jamey, where you been the last couple of years? Last year I caught more coho and bigger than I ever have, and I've been fishing here nearly half a century! And this year the kings were just about as thick as I've ever seen them, not to mention the chums which were at a 100 year high. And I got to fish for CR springers for the first time, 2 years in a row even, after they shut the fishery down completely in 1979. And I can now even fish for blackmouth within decent driving distance virtually all year, and have actually even been catching some. Fishing has been damn good, thank you, considering the ridiculous increase in population since the "good old days". I think that at least a small part of this bounty may even be due to the agency that has to operate on less that 1 tenth of 1 percent of the state budget, and now is going to operate on even less. Yet most of you do nothing but ***** about them. Well ***** to your elected officials and get some more money for our sport, dont wast all your energy in biting the hand that feeds you <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" />

spawny,what is the hand that feeds me?the government? i would rather take care of myself than depend on government to feed me.I would have starved to death long ago if that was the case.Yes we did have a good year last year, first time in how long?1979, that was long ago my freind.guess i was just spoiled in the used to be days.

It seems to me that the the STATE is biting the hand that feeds it.

Dont blame Eyman, Blame our Goverment leaders. They are the ones wasting our money. I think they need to come up with some radical ideas to fix these problems. The day of us just sitting and taking it is over. People are to used to having handouts and freebies from our goverment. They do to many stupid things. One example Health care We have one of the best as far as welfare recievers are conserned. They have had stories in the news of people moving to washington because their state welfare system wont pay for certain and very expensive operations and transplants but ours will. Why should our state be taking care of people from other states because they are unwilling to do so. Do we need higher prices for fishing licences as long as the extra money goes to our hatcheries and fishing programs. How about letting us buy two fishing licenses so we can fish with two poles at the same time same limit on fish. How about a check box on your income tax form next to where they ask for a donation to the presidentual parties that asks if you want to donate money to hatcheries or any number of other organizations. How bout the state income tax they are talking about and drop all other taxes. This could make it evenly matched up accross the board. Not some people paying sin taxes because they smoke or drink. How bout instead of giving a tax break for people with kids charging them extra for each kid to compensate for the tax burden. Now these are just good or bad I dont know but we do need some kind of change. I didnt even bring up comercial fishing or indian rights and how they impact our fishing.

Putting Tim Eyeman as a scapegoat shows the ignorance of many of the states voters.

He is actually providing an important service for the taxpayers of the state. The tax and spend attitude of our elected state officials (read that as mainly liberal tax and spend democrats) has to be controlled. It has gotten out of hand. The entitlement payments that are paid out is absurd and a slap in the face to those of us who are paying the bills for such waste.

The problem behind the problems......The state of Washington has a fu***d up tax policy. Some of you may have seen on the news where Mr. Bill Gates Sr. was on a board to recommend overhauls to the state regarding a possible state income tax and other issues regarding the states means for collecting taxes.

The problem with our state is that the source of revenues is so dependent on the economy as a whole, and as we all know, that can fluctuate drastically. Its based on B & O taxes which are paid by all business in the sate based on gross earnings....NOT NET, so even if a company makes no money after expenses, they still pay(slower economy means less revenue for businesses and thus less B&O collected).....also its based on the sales tax we pay on everything.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that when companies start getting pinched, they lay off people, those laid off people dont have money to spend and thus the state gets less sales tax collected. Also, those of us fortunate to have jobs, cut back and spend less in tight times so there again, less sales tax collected.

We in Washington are some of the most taxed people in the country, and with all that, the state still needs more money. Greed, Greed, Greed.

What we need is a more stable means of collecting revenue. Abolish the sales tax and lower other taxes, and go to a statewide income tax. Salaries are a more stable source on which to collect taxes.

With a more stable tax source, the state budgeting becomes easier, and we dont have the yo-yo effect thru good and bad times.

I hate to see hatcheries on the chopping block, but with the amount of cuts expected in the new state budget, I'm thankfull that more hatcheries and fish programs were not cut.

Gusty

A. I can't begin to believe it is cheaper to try & keep a human alive for as long as he can live (i.e. heart transplant) than it is to hang 'em....

B. I agree & am concerned that we surely have people on death row who got a bum rap & there are cops who plant evidence t oget who they believe "did it" & eyewitness' aren't a safe way to convict with a clean conscience..

C. what i believe is the appeal process is at this time is not only very expensive but, necessary due to B. above.

D. I also belive if the convicted being's dna is found in or on the dead or violated person's body & they super glud his palm prints of their neck, then there's not much need for appeals & I can with with a clean conscience sign off sending that evil, unsalvageable being to gallows & apply the saving to some kids college fund or even yes! state funded cruelty to animals, i.e. burying a #2 gammi in some steelies face...

Tim for Gov.

For those that think that we need more money in the government coffers, not less, really take a good look at the 51 page document from the link that Stlhd posted.

Look at all of the commissions and departments listed there. I haven't even heard of half of them. Do we really need all of that to provide for the requirements of the state constitution? I think NOT.

Looking through the list, one could easily see why the majority of the states people voted for less vehicle exise tax and no on a new gas tax. The state hasn't been investing in infrastructure, they've been investing in beauacracy.

Also, this is only the governer's proposal. The legislature and the senate will also have their own too. Each item will be debated and either accepted or rejected. If you really care about the hatcheries, start writing and calling your reps! Tell them that you support the funding for the hatcheries. Tell them you feel that they are important enough to preserve and the funding shouldn't be cut. Remind them of the huge return of sport dollars to the economy when fishing opportunities are available.

You can be assured that every special interest group in the state will be doing the same to preserve their piece of the pie. We need to do a better of job of getting organized as sportsmen than we've done in the past, or we'll feel the pain later.

all i know is this state was doing all right till we got the bonehead eyeman passing his sound good iniatives- so now we all enjoy cheap registration and capping taxes, yes there's waste in goverment, always will be. don't you think 30 bucks is to little. how about a 75 buck fee. that is tottally realistic to me. as far as a income tax, look no further than Oregon, they are in trouble and thinking of adding a sales tax right now. but go ahead and keep voting yes on all the eyeman sponsored iniatives and see where were at in ten years.

Happy Holidaze 2 all n yers!!

0 Yeah, I've had a few "holiday libations" n that is probably the souce of mah difficulties.

Anywayz, sorry to intrude on this thread w/sumthin totally irrelevant but I can't seem to finger out how to start (post) a new topic!!

I'm registered but every time I 'click' on the topic button it sez I'm not authorized.

Appreciate any help but I can't help but think that tomorrow, w/a slightly enlarged head, that I'll be able 2 finger it out. Thanx fer yer indulgance

Sincerely,
Roger

This information was included in presentation by Bill McMillan and thought it interesting to inject and maybe help gain some perspective.

The economics of hatchery programs: "What you spend is what you get". WDFW is heavily invested in hatchery programs, much more so than in habitat/wild stock programs. In the early 1990's, WDFW was spending about $26 million a year on hatchery steelhead programs, but only about $1.5 million on wild fish programs.



I dislike loosing opportunity because of budget cuts. I am not totally against hatcheries and the harvest opportunities they provide. But, let's think about this, Washington has the largest number of hatcheries than any other state or province in North America. So isn't fair to question if this system, the way it is now, really adding value and working improve the future of the wild fish? Or is everybody just happy with hatchery fish?

In my own opinion I can't help but think that the majority of anglers can't look past our own self interest of just catching a fish (any fish) and start looking at the big picture and seeing the forest for the trees.

it's a tough question.....

Dusty Waders. Sorryyou feel that way about Tim. Well, as for me , I voted for all his initiatives. At least he's trying to do something to change our screwed up tax system. No, you're right . I'd rather pay 3 to 500 dollars for tabs and still get this f---ed up mess that we're in. No problem, let's just keep giving the state our money and I'm sure in 10 years everything will be fine! Ya right!!!!

I'm not much into the political arena but felt compelled to voice an opinion.

Get the nets out of the water ENTIRELY. Phase the hatcheries out. Assist the displaced commercial fishermen with farm fishing. It's cheaper per fish anyway.

Over the next four years, the fish which return do to NOT commercially fishing the PS waters will increase enough to assist the economy through the cycle of sales B&O and other Taxes.

But the one thing that is REALLY FROSTING MY BALLS is the way the state spends OUR money when they need to build something like a new Weigh Station. Jesus have you looked at those new ones. That building which has maybe 2 to 4 people working full time is about 3000 square feet and built like some arhcitect was trying to design his monument to life. Those projects must cost in the 3-5 mil range to put together and I bet could be done for half that easy. Speculation on my part but I bet I'm not far off. GRRRRRRRRRR

As for car tabs, the Goverment was RAPING us on that one. I wouldn't mind spend $100 a year if there were some accountability.

We can't be that broke. We have over a billion dollars worth of new sports stadiums. Whooopti F'ing dooo.
Our rivers might run void of fish, but at least we'll have nice places for millionaires to play ball for a few months out of the year.
I sort of liked the pre-Eyman car tabs.

The old car tabs were flat out wrong and that's why I voted for the change. What does the value of your vehicle have to do with how much you use the roads?
The good thing about a state income tax, if they remove the sales tax which the proposed plan does not do, would be that communities living near the states borders can no longer dodge paying their share by shopping in another state or country. But it is funny that Gates Sr is pushing this. How much would his son, the richest man in the world, pay? His salary is nominal. So add a capital gains tax?

Off the topic again as I'm in the same boat as RRR getting a "Not authorized" message for a new topic. Anyone else running into this problem?

Wanted to post that the Times today said a world record coho was found in the Lewis river. 38" long 38-40" girth 30-40 lbs.
WOW.

Oh yeah, Tim Eyman rocks. The Government is a racket worse than the mob.