So many of you libs have seen fit to educate us on the evils of this president and his overreaching war on terror. We know that we should not be in Iraq...you have already told us that. We know that we cannot profile Arab or Muslim males between the ages of 18 and 44 at airports, because that is racist, etc...you have already told us that. We now know that the government should not be listening to our phone conversations because we all need our rights protected with regard to our privacy. We cannot go so far and be so evil as to torture terrorists, or suspected terrorists for information, because that is just not fair or civilized. We know that the homeland security dept. should never have been created, etc. We know that we need to give all terrorists, U.S. citizens or not, due process rights under our Constitution, because it just wouldn't be cricket not to do so. We know we can't build a fence on our border because Diane Feinstein says not to. We know we can't hold terrorists in Gitmo without letting them go to trial. We know, we know, we know.

We know all of this, and you all have eloquently and vociferously told us so.

So, without retreading the same Bush-hate ground we have been over, let's start fresh:


Tell us your plan.
#1 Tell us all your plan for what the government should do to keep us safe from terrorist attacks.
#2 Tell us, with specifics, what efforts and actions our government should be taking that will prevent this from happening in the future... and you can't use any of the above measures, nor can you discuss them since we all know these are off limits.

And remember, no Bush name-calling neocon B.S. and no ad-hominem attacks against me or my business or TK for that matter. We are not the issue. You too TK
What’s your opinion? Lets just put down your Opinion fist don’t get off telling any one how stupid they are or wrong till the next thread. Eyes on own paper. When I call "time," put down your pencils, close your workbooks and eyes to the front.

No that is not Asumption. I have seen evry one of those statements made on this board buy the "left side" I asked what would YOU do if it were up to you. (I didnt know you were a liberal )

That’s cool, that’s what I wanted to see a simple cut to the point response.
Why the other?

??????? Where do you all come up with this stuff, to make remarks like that? No one here really knows how I feel, I will tell every one IF they will answer to this thread, and go along with it, and with out the BS. I have a few thoughts on the mater that would surprise you all I believe. I am trying to have a middle ground with out the same old garbage that is spewed every day here about politics.

I hope so, and this isn’t up for entertainment why I put the rules, but time will tell who can put the precedence down for us to have a good clean discussion..

Hummmm. While I agree with about 75 % of the things you say Aunty on most issues.. You have been known to pull out the race card when people don't agree with you. Latest example would be you labeling me as a racisit because I ( and most other) people think its a bad policy to allow Makah whale killing to happen on a commercial basis. In short, you say you live under the " Big Tent " etc etc etc, and somehow think that any opposition to your way of thinking will lead to your rights being taken away. So, you post about how I " spew" hate, because I don't agree with you. While I am with ya on a lot of things, and think you have some good thoughts, when cornered on an issue you pull the race card. Just thought a reminder was in order.

Ditto!

AiX: Are we doing pretty good about keeping within your suggested guidlines for this discussion?

Idaho is changing. A lot of old school lefties are starting to see that a lot of the things going on within the current administration are totally wrong. In example. Our own Butch Otter co-sponcered a bill to sell 15 % of our federal lands to the highest bidder. He got hammered by his own cronies and had to back peddle, issue a public apology, remove his name from the bill and probably un-elected himself. Our own Larry Craig de-funded the fish passage center. Damage control has been ongoing. Another hard core leftie that screwed himself.

At any rate. If a person feels that the idea of multiple " sovern" nations within a nation is retarded, that does not make him a rascist. The abuse of the current system is well documented, and thats not even something you could debate.

Long to short, you are pretty damn good at making a point, but when you can't make one, you revert to the old standbys such as rascism. If I had to pick a debate team out of this crew, you would be a starter, but would have to be reminded to stop throwing so many interceptions.. sometimes its better to throw the ball away.

Actually Dave, I think he was asking everyone to show up at an ass kicking contest with one leg. And when you think about it, thats what it must be like for the person running this country at any given time.

B Run: I agree with you on that. I thought it was funny that he would attempt to tell folks how they should respond - then to see us we get off track so fast.

You can bring up any subjuct you like here, but you sure as heck can't control the responses.

"#1 Tell us all your plan for what the government should do to keep us safe from terrorist attacks.
#2 Tell us, with specifics, what efforts and actions our government should be taking that will prevent this from happening in the future... and you can't use any of the above measures, nor can you discuss them since we all know these are off limits."

Aix: It's a flawed argument. It is impossible to keep us safe from attacks and we can never completely prevent future attacks. If it were possible Israel, by now, would be the safest country in the world. Given that complete safety is a fallacy why would anyone be willing to give up their rights, the rights this country is founded upon, for a fallacy? To throw it back on you....how would you have prevented Tim McVey from blowing up the Federal building?

I would first like Aix to define 'Vociferous' in his own words... then I might take a stab at it.

#1 Tell us all your plan for what the government should do to keep us safe from terrorist attacks.

I would first have the Senate and congress impeach Bush. By doing this, it will at least stop the bleeding as well as the production of fresh terrorist. This administration is so corrupt that it's going to take decades to clean up their mess.

We need to demand better choices from all parties in elections. We need to teach those crooks that they will pay a penalty for breaking laws, and If they don't perform, they should be voted out (not re-elected) or impeached, no matter which party they are affilliated with. So many of them are only their to work for the highest bidders, and not for the interest of the people that they are there to represent. After impeachment, we can take a look to see which wounds need the most attention. This cabal will leave us wounded and in need of triage.

NOPE I Would'nt. I disagree with them having the right to kill them. why in a "nation that is equal"
should they be any better than us. I disagree with tribs, and special rules for them, because of race. We dont owe them any thing.

OK, here's my plan! If terrorist attacks ever get to be a major problem, like, uh, say killing 50,000 people in a typical year, killing about the same number of people killed in auto accidents every year, what the government should do is provide free body armor to all the weinies whose most important thing in life is to be "safe".

What? No plans from the left? Just what the heck are we supposed to do? Sit on our hands and hope for the best? Lets just hope terrorist have a change of heart?

The best we can do is what we should have been doing all along. Keeping track of foreign nationals in our country. We had the tools to do that prior to 9/11.

How is it that we survived 50 years of Cold War, thousands of nukes pointed at our homeland, countless foreign and domestic spies; How did we survive that without a network of overseas gulags, without the Patriot Act, without surveillance of my library card, without Total Information Awareness?

How is it that we as a country sacrificed thousands of good men on the beaches of France to protect something that we are allowing 19 evil men to take away with box cutters?

There is no fail-safe plan against terrorism that would not create the kind of police state that our founding fathers would have abhorred. There is no liberal nor conservative who can guarantee with certainty our safety.


I prefer not to give up my privacy, nor my liberties so easily. How much would you allow to be given up in the name of safety?

I hold the Bill of Rights as important in its entirety as the NRA holds the 2nd Amendment. I don't see the nescessity of constraining those liberties for the sake of convenience.

If it is the preservation of life that concerns the right wing reactionaries, then I have a list of a dozen more deadly things that they have neglected then terrorists.

What the hell do you think terrorists want? They want to be the boogeyman, they want someone to jump when they say "Boo". No, I have better things to fear. That is far different then sitting on my hands. It has to do with living in the real world, and knowing what dangers are real and which are hype.

About 4,000 Americans were murdered on 9/11. But since that time how many Americans have died from preventable disease, from poverty, from domestic violence, from inadequate healthcare, from drunk drivers, and from serving in a war zone that should never have existed? Considering that just short of 10,000,000 Americans have died of all causes of death since 9/11, the chances of dying in a terrorist attact are about one person in 250,000.

CAUSES OF DEATH, USA, 2002
(1) heart attack (mainly) 28.5%
(2) cancer 22.8%
(3) Cerebrovascular disease stroke 6.7%
(4) Chronic mphysema, bronchitis 5.1%
(5) Unintentional injuries accidents 4.4%
(6) Diabetes mellitus diabetes 3.0%
(7) Influenza and pneumonia flu & pneumonia 2.7%
(8) Alzheimer's Disease 2.4%
(9) kidney disease 1.7%
(10) Septicemia systemic infection 1.4%
(11) Intentional self-harm suicide 1.3%
(12) liver disease 1.1%
(13) high blood pressure 0.8%
(14) Assault homicide 0.7%
(15) All other causes other 17%

Source: National Vital Statistics Report, Volume 53, Number 5 (October 2004)

Its fear, ignorance, and paranoria that are driving our governments spending, not facts.

And finally, yes I would give US citizens suspected of terrorism their due rights under the US Constitution. Due rights mean nothing if they are reserved only for those who are unaccused, and can be taken away the moment you are declared a suspect. Statements like that show a profound lack of respect for Thomas Jeffersons intent as a founding father.

vhawk29, quote:
"Its fear, ignorance, and paranoria that are driving our governments spending, not facts."

Don't forget cynicism. The Bu****es have fomented the fear of Islamic terrorism with pure political cynicism.

Vinny,

"the chances of dying in a terrorist attact are about one person in 250,000."

Risk abatement is additive. Just because you do not like the steps it does not take away from the fact that the risk is diminished.

Since pollution is not in the top 15 on your list lets stop all efforts to protect and clean the environment.

You arguement is swiss cheese all emotion little useable information.

Did you hear that faked OBL tape this AM?

I would first have the Senate and congress impeach Bush. By doing this, it will at least stop the bleeding as well as the production of fresh terrorist.

Be careful using the words "I'm curious" around a bunch of lefties in Seattle or San Francisco.

So tk... you ALREADY know that the OBL tape is fake huh? If I were you I'd pick up the Bat phone and clue in the CIA ASAP!

Seems that they're not sure yet either way...

Vhawk - VERY well said!

4Salt. it was a jab at vinny. He made a grandiose claim that OBL was dead about a year ago. He linked a bunch of conspiracy theory sites as proof.

Then OBL made that little video just before Kerry lost to Bush. We discussed this all before when Vinny made his post. The toxins in the smokes are stopping your last two brain cells from rubbing together.

It could be that TK's strong attraction to Dumbya is based a common pathology.

On the other hand, it could be just the chimp thing.

We are scratching the bottom guys.

I thought the red line was Dumbya approval rating.
Oh yeah , lets stop the volcanoes. tk has a plan. Lets all follow tk to the top of the nearest volcano. Then we put a cork in it. Right tk?

Lefty don't like it when his pink underbelly is exposed. Kinda like when a fish hits the beach it really starts flopping around. The left has no plan it is just like highschool for them. Biotch that it's mom and dads fault while at home. Its the schools fault when at school. Then when they turn 18 it's the governments fault. They need someone to blame.

Amazing how much of this stuff Dr. Aunty is posting about the behavior of people with NPD fits Prince George. The lying, the tempter tantrums, the grandiosity, the lack of empathy for others.

There is a rule of court etiquette in England that the Queen is not addressed first. One only speaks to the Queen in reply to her speaking to one. Damned if Georgie hasn't adopted this as a rule of conduct for the White House!

Neocons still have yet to admit to themselves that pollution contributes to lung disease and cancer. Those two causes of death add up to 27% of the death rate.
Ask the miners in Libby Montana if asbestos is good for your health. Heck TK I'd invite you to spend a weekend in the old vermiculite mine if your so sure about yourself.
As for the OBL tapes, TK your the one who waffled on that one. I still think he's dead. And I dont think we're getting the truth on the recent missile attack in Pakistan. I think someone in the NSA or White House changed their minds about releasing information to the public. It doesn't make sense that if there was nothing left but tissue samples they so quickly changed their minds on whether Ayman al-Zawahri was dead or not.
And of course no high ranking cabinet officials made the proclamation that the audio tape was real...once again released to the news wire .
Is it really in OBL's reportoire to offer a truce with the US if we guarantee the safety of Muslim ccountries? That doesn't sound like the typical OBL BS from the 1990's. The audio tape is faked.

Here it is reposted in case you missed it. I know its one of TK's favs.


My very own conspiracy theory. Figured 5am was as good a time as any to share it on the web.

I'll start with the theory itself:

OBL was killed during the battle of Tora Bora in Dec of 2001. I'll give a date 12/16/2001.

Now the motives for keeping it secret:

1. GW benefits from the public believing the bogeyman is still out there. If bad folk is still alive then public gives him free reign to 'protect us'.

2. Al Queda benefits by having a leader who has challenged the Great Satan and walked away alive.


Facts supporting conclusion that OBL is Dead.


1. No credible video since end of Nov 2001. Any video that has surfaced either are obvious imposters, or not so obvious. Either way, video has been scarce since Dec 2001. Google up OBL video and you'll find some great webpages doing comparisons between known OBL pics and the latest videos. Even if the last one was a good fake, some of the authenticated tapes are completely obviously NOT OBL. Why would they pass them off as being real?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html

2. Audio tapes have been authenticated by "US intelligence officals", but never by anyone willing to give thier name for the record. Google it up. Its always "officials". Someday the truth will come out and Rummy, Dummy, and Cheney will all be able to say "Well I never said he was alive". One of those "authenticated" audio tapes was independently studied by an independant Swiss reserch group, they gave a statement they were 100% sure it was NOT OBL. And never a counterstatement from the White House. Case dropped.

http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/binladen/after-death/support-iraq-tape-feb03/swiss-wont-verify.txt

3. Rummy was specifically asked 2 years ago at a news conference "Is OBL dead or alive?" His answer was a wise ass "Yes". He refused to give anything more then that.

4. Since Dec 2001 Bush has mysteriously lost personal interest in finding OBL.

5. Bush keeps a list of the most wanted terrorists in the top drawer of his desk in the Oval office. He mentioned the list during a 20/20 interview. He said he couldn't show who on it was captured or dead, but did say he marked them off his list as they were 'taken care of'. Now I remember them bragging about every high level capture or kill they have made except for 2, OBL and that Jackas Taliban Mullah Omar.

6. Shortly after Tora Bora a report on NPR was done on how the military has tissue samples from several of OBL's family. Those samples were being kept at the base on the East Coast where they process military remains. Evidently samples from Tora Bora were going to be analyzed against those tissue samples from OBL's family. Why the hell would they be doing that? Never any follow up reports. Believe me I looked, this is the story that got me thinking.

7. Several reports have gone out from different sources over 'power struggles' within Al Queda. Why would thier be a power struggle if OBL was alive?

8. (this is the only non-public/non-verifiable info I am going to give) Early summer I get an email from someone I'd been exchanging correspondence with for a couple years. He is involved with operations in Afghanistan. Thats all you get I dont need him buried in some hole in Turkey. He tells me that morale among troops in afghanistan is falling. They have killed anybody important, and the little guys are dead or humping goats in Pakistan. They get sent around the countryside on pointless missions since December. 90% of the 'company' guys are gone too. Why the sudden change in only 3-4 months?


9. Tora Bora was not some huge screw up. Multiple reports were made that hundreds of American special forces troops had surrounded the area known to be the last hidout of OBL. B 52's were turning the hills into parking lots. He farted and Spec Ops were analyzing what he had for lunch.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wtora16.xml

I can get other links as requested. The truth is out there.


Vince

Vinny,
You should give up the bed pans and hit the research lab. Lets see your peer reviewed and published findings on pollution, lung disease and cancer. Whats that it coming out of your arse as we speak.

Islam requires the dead to be buried by sundown. How popular would it be ragheadville to send in the spooks to dig up the graves for a positive ID?

"The audio tape is faked"

Is that with an Irish accent?

I think your diagnosis is right on target AuntyM.

It was reported that we had resources on the ground in Pakistan who were at the site collecting tissue samples. I actually read and listen to more then just Fox news, and Bill The Stalker O'Reilly.


I just finished writing NPR and will write a few other news organizations including the BBC. Since when do news organizations take CIA news releases as the final and only word on something? Especially something that can be independently verified. Why not just have the White House write the AP wire stories?
What the hell do they teach in journalism school these days?

Well, allegedly Napoleon was given (notice the verb) a degree in journalism from the very same instituion as Edward R. Murrow. I'm sure you see his ability to convey thoughts in proper context.

Who goes by Napoleon? Someone here has a degree in journalism.

Harley and vinny are jealous. Harley got is degree in mess hall with a minor in KP. Even then he had to lick officers boots to get promoted. He is now retired and is a secretary for one of those officers. Sets up conference calls ,gets coffee etc. Vinny got his in bed pans and arse wiping from some JC. He will talk about going to school to get a degree for the rest of his life and never do it. Kneepads and mouth wash suit him just fine. I never once claimed to have a degree in journalism. I was required to take journalism classes for my degree.

And you got yours with a silver spoon in your mouth, what is your point?

What? you don't have one, I'm shocked!

Wacky,

I unlike your friends believe in paying my own way and taking responsibility for my actions. I paid for my own education and I am the first and only college grad in my family.

My bad the silver spoon was up your ass!

"first and only college grad in my family"

So much for evolution.

"silver spoon was up your ass!"

He pulls a lot of stuff out of there doesn't he? It's like a big storage unit.

Nothing makes lefty more outraged than the truth.

I've met some pretty dumb college grads over the years, but if KT is a grad, I guess that's a new low for college graduation.

Ok now I am really curious. What did you major in TK? I am really surprised to hear you have a four year degree.

And why be jealous of someone who can't catch fish? Maybe that explains TK's bitter moronic banter.

TK = Napoleon because of his "little man" syndrome. I'm sure it somehow coincides with Aunty's diagnosis.

... and then proceeds to run the family business (ran by non-college grads) into the ground.

This is getting too easy.

He majored in Farm Animals and Gay bar fights... duh!