My Father's generation has rightfully been called the Greatest Generation. Members of his generation in America, Britain, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, and many other countries saved our World from the tyranny of fascism. There are heroes aplenty and a culture was prevalent in those times that exalted those heroes. In our Country we had the popular images of Audie Murphy, John Wayne, Clark Gable, Jimmy Stewart, and others winning WWII. Fast forward to our generation. We were weaned on the War movies of WWII and popular TV shows - Combat, Rat Patrol, 12 O'Clock High. Yet, when our War came those that had the wherewithal managed to avoid service. And now our generation wields the reins of power.

The folks who tend to be on the Right pine for the simpler days. Black and White, Good and Evil are the coin of their realm - as much as possible they seek to eliminate the shades of gray. I hear it regularly on KVI - the two most popular hosts (Wilbur and Carlson) managed to avoid service yet now they absolutely laud the Military and are some of the biggest cheerleaders for exerting our Military strength in Iraq. Michael Medved is another one who falls into this mold. I was listening to him the other day and he served as the genesis of my thought. He proclaimed that there is only one reason for War - that is to win. At the highest rungs of power, Bush and Cheney, we see people who took great efforts to avoid Military Service during Vietnam. So, now on to my theory.

I believe all the folks that I have mentioned above have guilty consciences regarding their lack of service and active avoidance during Vietnam. They long for heroes. They long for having a "notch on their belt" that will allow them to compare with our Father's generation. They have chosen Iraq as the battlefield. Wouldn't it be ironic and tragic if our servicepeople dying in Iraq are there because my generation needed to bring home a figurative good report card and make our Dad's proud?

I recognize that this is a theory and could easily be jumped on as "psychobabble" by those that support our effort in Iraq. And if you feel the need to flame, go right ahead. After all, I would never believe that I am right 100% of the time but in trying to make rational sense of what this Administration has done, I find myself trekking rather far afield. The reasons they have given me don't hold water at all and in my poor small brain, I feel the need to try and come up with something that makes sense.

Comments?

well put- cheney with five deferments is leading the pack and folks like my dad that slogged it out in vietnam but are liberals are unpatriotic and helping the enemy.........

noone has helped the enemy more than george bush and his gang.....hang em all.....and shoot em while they hang....

Eddie,

I think you have an hypothesis, not a theory, but no biggie. Personally, I doubt internal guilt and the desire to create an heroic legacy has anything to do with Bushco invading Iraq. Actually, I think it has more in common with Arthur Miller's explanation given in his ~1970s novel titled, "Why we are in Vietnam." The final three words of text are, "Vietnam, hot damn!" Of course, you need the surrounding context to really get the meaning.

Lots of people actively and passively avoided military service during the Vietnam conflict for the simple reason that is wasn't anything like WWII. Vietnam, just like Iraq today, had nothing to do with national security, the number one reason, and a consistent stipulation for a "just war," for those who care about the moral implications of invoking warfare.

Most of the Vietnam era draft resisters had some education beyond high school, even though college attendence provided deferrments from the military draft. A problem with education is that it produces an informed citizenry. Educated people were aware that the Vietnam conflict was based on principles and concepts other than national security. First was the communist scare hysteria of the on-going cold war. Analytical minds wondered just how scared it made sense to be of countries that could not even feed themselves. (The record is clear that not one communist country has ever successfully fed its own population.) The second was that the Vietnam conflict was good for business, corroborating the truth about the military-industrial complex. Anyway, there's lots, lots more about that sad time in the nation's history, as there undoubtably will be about this time after the Iraq conflict passes.

I think the explanation for invading Iraq, if it ever becomes known, will be far too simple. Probably along the lines of unfinished business from Gulf War I, Saddam tried to kill Bush Sr., and it's good for business. Can't prove it of course, but that's my estimate of the situation.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo, fair points and I agree - a hypothesis it is as this theory can't be proven.

Real reasons for the Iraq war, IMO :

1) Karl Rove thought it would play well politically.

2) Cheney and the Neocons wanted the war for oil, power, empire, and Israel.

3) Bush wanted to be a "war president".

After reading your post Eddie it reminds me of a Dennis Miller political commentary something to the effect that he voted for Bush because he felt that we needed a president aftern 9-11 that was a button pusher, take no prisoners type as opposed to John Kerry who, because of his service in Vietman, who would think of the reasons for his next move 15 different ways before making a decision.

So, I tend to agree with your hypothesis as the Bush neocons didn't understand the magnitude of the US commitment for this post war mission due to their lack of service.

Interesting HR 4655 from 1998:

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Legislation/ILA.html

Following chronological quotes are from the Department of Energy's website at:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chrn1998.html

"August 20 Following its regular 60-day review of trade sanctions against Iraq, the United Nations (UN) Security Council decides to extend the sanctions and expresses concern over Iraq's continuing refusal to cooperate with arms inspectors. On August 5, 1998, Iraq suspended cooperation with UN weapons inspectors, stating that it has destroyed its banned weapons of mass destruction and calling on the UN to lift the trade sanctions. (DJ)"

"August 21 Due to Afghanistan's continuing civil war and recent U.S. attacks on suspected terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan, Unocal suspends plans for the construction of a $2 billion natural gas pipeline that would run from Turkmenistan to Pakistan via Afghanistan. Unocal has stressed that the gas pipeline project will not proceed until an internationally- recognized government is in place. To date, only three countries -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates -- have recognized Afghanistan's Taliban government. (DJ) (WSJ)"

"December 7 Unocal Corporation drops out of a consortium that has been trying to build a $4.4 billion Central Asian oil pipeline passing through war-torn Afghanistan. A company spokesman attributes the decision to continuing political instability in the region and low oil prices. (DJ)"

I hate to sound like a fatalist, but I am assuming that this was started well before "W" was "appointed" as president. It all points to bottom line profits for me. For those gov't watchers out there, you can learn alot about our foreign policy by reading through the monthly chronologies at the above posted website.

Sorry about that, proper url to iraqwatch should be this:

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Legislation/ILA.htm

Did you see the article in the Seattle PI this weekend regarding the cost of Iraq? Someone is predicting that before it is over and done, the war in Iraq will cost the US $1 Trillion!!!

The lives lost are, of course, incalculable.

Just think of the 100's of other worthwhile things we could have done with that much money.

Certainly Bush and his gang of criminals had their motives for attacking Iraq. That isn’t the reason for the stupidity however. The reason is that you and I allowed it to happen.
We didn’t care that UN inspectors told us time and again that they could not find WMD.
We didn’t care that almost no other country would support our headlong rush to idiocy.
We didn’t care that Congress did not authorize this stupidity and that our Constitution was generally ignored.
We didn’t care that we sent our children and neighbors to a foreign country until the bodybags started coming back and we are asked to donate money for rehabilitation centers to take care of our kids who are crippled and maimed.
We didn’t care if we would kill and injure nearly as many women and children in Iraq in 3 years as Hussein did in 40 because we have God on our side.
We wanted “the whinin’ and the cryin’ and the shootin’ and the dyin’”. We loved to tell the rest of the world that we are tough and strong hell man we’re a SUPERPOWER!

think of the lives lost here at home too from not having that 1 trillion dollars in our treasury.......that means poor kids not being fed and granparents not getting medicine and roads not being fixed and all kinds of programs that benefit us all from being financed.......it means less money for research and design of new drugs and new cures for tomorrows problems..............hang bush

Exactly, lupo! $1 trillion dollars! An unbelievable amount of money. Besides helping the poor, re-building after Katrina, etc etc, we could probably pay for the R&D for the next generation of electric / solar / hydrogen / whatever / cars. Instead, we've got one bad guy in jail, Osama Bin Laden is still out there, and we've started a civil war.

Gee, excuse me for being thick, but it isn't what I would have spent the money on.

--24x7

Brilliant Lupo!
How do you intend to carry out your threats?

We don't have to hang him. A simple impeachment will do. Heck, the other guy got impeached over a little 'ol cigar job...look what this one has done.

Subject: Lessons Of Iraq War Start W/ US History By Howard Zinn


Lessons Of Iraq War Start With US History
By Howard Zinn


On the third anniversary of President Bush's Iraq debacle, it's
important to consider why the administration so easily fooled so many
people into supporting the war.
I believe there are two reasons, which go deep into our national culture.

One is an absence of historical perspective. The other is an inability
to think outside the boundaries of nationalism.

If we don't know history, then we are ready meat for carnivorous
politicians and the intellectuals and journalists who supply the
carving knives. But if we know some history, if we know how many times
presidents have lied to us, we will not be fooled again.

President Polk lied to the nation about the reason for going to war
with Mexico in 1846. It wasn't that Mexico "shed American blood upon
the American soil" but that Polk, and the slave-owning aristocracy,
coveted half of Mexico.

President McKinley lied in 1898 about the reason for invading Cuba,
saying we wanted to liberate the Cubans from Spanish control, but the
truth is that he really wanted Spain out of Cuba so that the island
could be open to United Fruit and other American corporations. He also
lied about the reasons for our war in the Philippines, claiming we
only wanted to "civilize" the Filipinos, while the real reason was to
own a valuable piece of real estate in the far Pacific, even if we had
to kill hundreds of thousands of Filipinos to accomplish that.

President Wilson lied about the reasons for entering the First World
War, saying it was a war to "make the world safe for democracy," when
it was really a war to make the world safe for the rising American power.

President Truman lied when he said the atomic bomb was dropped on
Hiroshima because it was "a military target."

And everyone lied about Vietnam - President Kennedy about the extent
of our involvement, President Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin and
President Nixon about the secret bombing of Cambodia. They all claimed
the war was to keep South Vietnam free of communism, but really wanted
to keep South Vietnam as an American outpost at the edge of the Asian
continent.

President Reagan lied about the invasion of Grenada, claiming falsely
that it was a threat to the United States.

The elder Bush lied about the invasion of Panama, leading to the death
of thousands of ordinary citizens in that country. And he lied again
about the reason for attacking Iraq in 1991 - hardly to defend the
integrity of Kuwait, rather to assert U.S. power in the oil-rich
Middle East.

There is an even bigger lie: the arrogant idea that this country is
the center of the universe, exceptionally virtuous, admirable, superior.

If our starting point for evaluating the world around us is the firm
belief that this nation is somehow endowed by Providence with unique
qualities that make it morally superior to every other nation on
Earth, then we are not likely to question the president when he says
we are sending our troops here or there, or bombing this or that, in
order to spread our values - democracy, liberty, and let's not forget
free enterprise - to some God-forsaken (literally) place in the world.

But we must face some facts that disturb the idea of a uniquely
virtuous nation.

We must face our long history of ethnic cleansing, in which the U.S.
government drove millions of Indians off their land by means of
massacres and forced evacuations.

We must face our long history, still not behind us, of slavery,
segregation and racism.

And we must face the lingering memory of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It is not a history of which we can be proud.

Our leaders have taken it for granted, and planted the belief in the
minds of many people that we are entitled, because of our moral
superiority, to dominate the world.

Both the Republican and Democratic Parties have embraced this notion.

But what is the idea of our moral superiority based on?

A more honest estimate of ourselves as a nation would prepare us all
for the next barrage of lies that will accompany the next proposal to
inflict our power on some other part of the world.

It might also inspire us to create a different history for ourselves,
by taking our country away from the liars who govern it, and by
rejecting nationalist arrogance, so that we can join people around the
world in the common cause of peace and justice.


(c) 2006 Howard Zinn who served as a bombardier in the Air Force in
World War II, is the author of "A People's History of the United
States" (HarperCollins, 1995). He is also the co-author, with Anthony
Arnove, of "Voices of a People's History of the United States."


http://www.issuesandalibis.org/

brilliant gutz.....id didnt threaten anyone. its short for try him,convict him and hang em. like most conservatives-your comment sugggests that your primary concern is not with the country and its health but to bash anyone who you think is liberal.....brilliant


do you have anything to add about the one trillion dollars????

This link is to an article talking about the pro Israel lobby's role.

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20060320-124726-1902r

JLH, You forgot how FDR lied about how the real cause for entering WWII was because of Pearl Harbor and not really for genocide. You must be a real follower of Charles Lindberg, he's not the All American Hero he's made out to be no matter how great his flights were and if not for him and others like him we would have entered the war in 1939 when we really should have and it would have been much much shorter and much less costly that it really was, I would suggest you really take a close unbiased look at history and see what it really tells you.This is not to defend Bush and Cheney, I think they are screwing the American people but your take on this really reminds me of the "peace at any cost" movement, another falacy like "violence never solved anything", if that were the case why do police officers carry gun?

Damn lupo, I love it when you post because I can look at that woman again. Is she really holding a salmon or am I just dreaming?

Sounds like Mr.Zinn "gets it". He has articulated our "holier than thou", "rah-rah" football game mentality("let's kick some *ss")very clearly. And don't call me a liberal, I'm trying to raise 2 kids in Seattle and can't even spank 'em without fear of going to jail! And heaven forbid, someone sees me smoking near them.
Moe

FJ, I feel that most of what was posted is pretty close to the truth as I see it. I would agree that there is more that can be added to the list, but our moral superiorty is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

FYI, I have never been a follower of Charles Linberg, nor is he considered one of my heroes. Sorry that your take of my above comments, leads you to believe that they are without reason, and are out of touch with universal truths of moral men.

My thoughts are independant of any organized movement. Before the first bomb was dropped on Irag, I spoke out here about how wrong it would be, to pre-emptively strike a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. It was my moral obligation and indignation to do so. I'm one of the "I told you so" as history is illustrating.

A lot of the debate advocating for the war at that time, (as well as now) was based on a foundation of racisism and bigotted hatred. Sorta like what must have happened, back in the days of ethnic cleasing of the American Indian, or the war to own slaves here in America. How many more thousands of (muslims, Red skins, Yellow skins, whites or blacks, christian, Jews,etc.) innocent people need to die in order to demonstrate the high moral values that some feel this administration represents? It's a problem that's not unique, as Nazi germany exemplified what happens when an evil and corrupt cabal gains total power and control of a government and it's people. This is being done right now, right here in America today, with the constant programing of people into farm animals or sheep with constant threats and fear, while KVI, and Fox News do the shepherding.

It's not pretty to watch the eager chugging of the Kool Aid by the Rory's out there. Not to mention, the frequent dribbling (from the corners of their mouth), of the artificial and synthetic juices in neon, for all to see here. Their toxic Kool Aid stains, don't seem to be messing this board as it once did. I'm guessing that they have bibs in place these days. I'm sure that their addiction to the stuff is still strong, and there is obviously still an abundant supply of the toxic tangy drink being served up in mass quantities on a regular basis. Just not seeing as many stains on this board these days. Just glad the high chair (TK) went away, and bibs do help keep it from getting to messy in this tucked away place.

Again, I will ask the original question: Are we morally superior and qualified as a nation (based on U S history and the current administration)to determind the morals and values of an entire world, with our criminal regime and it's outlaws, acting as our moral ambassadors, it's example?????

I say we need to clean our own house first, and kick these bums out of office ASAP.

SS, have you notice how no one will touch or comment on this. It's the elephant that no one can see, taking the dump at the dinner table in the salad bowl. The information and numbers in that article is staggering, but only the tip of the Ice berg of deception. Truly amazing!