It is sometimes difficult to understand political issues, unless we examine the associated facts in order to assess the potential for disfunction or failure. The following information was useful in helping me to form an opinion and an action regarding this important issue. Interesting read to say the least.


FROM THE LA TIMES

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).

(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)


Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare. http://www.cis.org


Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.


The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].


The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

Round 'em up and return them to Senor Fox. After confiscating any valuable property to cover any outstanding bills.

sard-what about if they have children that are legal americans?....do we send the parents back and put the legal american children in orphanages?

im for a policy of zero legal or illegal immigration until we get our house in order. look -the way our government fixes a problem is to call it something else.....they will take the word "illegal-alien" and fix it by making it the word-"legal-alien".....will anything change other than the name??? will it matter at all if the feds bring in a bit of taxes over the name change? HELL NO!!!!!!

Bush co. will not send the mexicans home or fix the problem until the mexicans are done doing the dirty work of the bush admin: breaking the unions and creating a slave labor class of workers in the usa so that manufacturers can better compete in "globalization" and not have to leave the comforts of america in order to start a new sweat shop

how many illegal aliens are running the garbage trucks that pick up garbage in your neighborhoods?????
i bet the answer is ZERO.....why? because they are well paying union jobs! you can stop illegal immigration by supporting unions!!!!
and you will also get famillies whose parents earn a living wage, with health care, and raise children who are healthy and less likely to cause crime or suck up govt. services. it is these famillies that are going to save up money and possibly start a new business which will create jobs!! not the rich........

but bush will destabilize our economy with his union busting and anti-labor stance and use the immigrants and his guest worker programs to do it...he wont do a thing to help protect the living wage of the blue collar american worker and we will pay the price for it with high crime, high taxes high prices and low low wages

Vote whore.

I'm still looking for the candidate who will straiten out the alien mess including making it hard for the poor bastids to find a job without legal citizenship documents.......


It wasn't Bush, and it wasn't Kerry......

It boils down to supply and demand, (like everything else), one of the keys has to be cracking down on the employers...............

That's the ONLY key, but those whores in Congress, both Republicans and those so-called Democrats are getting phat kick-backs from the very same employers who are trying to lower labor costs by undermining American Union Labor.
Kiss your 40 hr work week and your health bennies goodbye, boys, The Pinkertons are running the show these days.

Gosh, here I'd been thinking this was the country where a person is free to hang out their own shingle and have a go at the big time, or at least rise to the top of his chosen profession and again, supply and demand works for the intelligent and ambitious ...

P.S.
I thought it was those Democrats, and those so-called Republicans ........

you will do the most to stop illegal immigration by supporting your unions......

I agree at least in part with AuntyM !!!


I have seen employees protected by unions when the employee was intentionly nonproductive, in fact, that is about the only thing I have seen unions do aside from collecting money and campaigning for liberal democrat polititions.


Why is it so scary for people to accept work and compensation comensurate to their performance ? I don't need union protection to find work, nor do I need a union to tell me what I'm worth. There is one other benefit of unions which I guess I should aknowledge, and that is helping to keep prices up where a small business can make bank just by being efficient.

I know of an electrician who is unemployed about half of the time because nonunion companies get all the local work that isn't government funded, the guy has lived under the union so long, and believed so much of their propaganda, that he is literally affraid to step out on his own and bid on the local non-union work..........and make more money per year, and contribute to the economy. He claims that the union would harass him and try to get the state/county inspectors to harass him, and he would loose his pension...

The union has made him into a pussy !

aunty/oregonian-
i definately know what you are saying and agree. there are definately problems with unions and i am not personally a member of one or ever have been..... but it is starting to seem like they well may be far less of an evil than previousely percieved...
it seems like the present system is leading to millions of jobs that all dont pay anything and no matter where yo work it still wont pay the bills.... like the fast food mentality nowadays where kids just dont give a hoot about their job because there is allway the same job for a different fast food spot right next door....

the garbage trucks just seemed to click with me for some reason because i was noticing that they are well paid, ethnically balanced, have health care and are unionized.... but my garbage has never been forgotton or late and i was doubting that there was ever an illegal immigrant behind the wheel......
ive heard horor stories about the unios too from a career in the building trades and definately horror stories from my mom too, who worked for dshs for years.....she would say that there are ladies who show up drunk every day and there would be nothing you could do to get rid of them other than promoting them

lupo;
IF we could cut wellfare programs down to the point that people have to be litterally unable to support themselves to get any assistance, AND erase the minimum wage, Then we could just let supply and demand do it's thing..........


I know I won't be working for any less than I get right now regardless, and if my cost of living goes up, then my price goes up, if you can find somebody who will do my job for less money then fine. When I can no longer compete in my current ocupation, then I will find another.........

As long as people can work for minimum wage, and still draw wellfare (by whatever name...), then the market is skewed, same goes for illegal aliens mooching off the system, and lazyass Americans too. By cutting the benies to the riff-raff who get a lot of them we save Uncle Sugar a ton of loot, then those former professional couch potatoes are going to be productive to boot, it's a double schwang !

AuntyM, I know the system is practically unchangable, but I think people who are living on the dole are having it too easy, they would have to take a pay cut to get a job ! The benefits aught to provide about what you prescribed...3 hots and a cot, nothing else, heck ya they will be stigmatized.


Start down this topic very far, and we will get to financial aide, what a joke that is, incentive to be a cull.

aunty-like the mom in "million dollar baby" that was pissed that her daughter bought her a house... cuz then she was going to lose her welfare if the state found out about the house....

those people piss me off too...... although there are alot of folks out there that really do need public assistance. i mean like people that you dont see at the stores and such but are partialy retarded or not crazy enough to be committed but not sane enough that you would want them to be fixing your cheeseburgers.

the sense of community is gone in a present day society and the ability for us to help eachother out and be able to expect the same in return is diminishing....and we all need help some time or another for health reasons or money reasons or whatever
so different in rural areas. i remember being out at our wheat/barely farm in palouse and asking where jim was. jim was our farmer that lived there and farmed the land and his dad before him.... jim and all the local farmers were over at a neighbors farm with their own combines and such harvesting thousands of acres for a friend that had come down with cancer and couldnt get the harvest done and would have been done for if it didnt get harvested...... i thought that that was so cool and every one of those farmers knew full well that they could expect the same if it happened to them...... it was their "safety net"
and now that community is dissaapearing and being replaced with society ,where its rare to know your neighbors let alone even speak the same language .....we still need some sort of safety net.....

Lupo, dependance on the government is part of what is loosening those tight nit communities...

The system as is forcibly collects money from all taxpayers to provide for those in need, the trouble is that the distribution is inefficient, and corupt on many levels....

Taxpayers feel less generous to others because they have already been coerced to contribute...

oregonian- i would disagree. i feel that it is dependance on corporate employment and the need to work more and more to pay the bills is loosening those tight nit communities... now it takes most families two parents working just to get by.....and on the welfare you are concentrating on welfare to the poor which is extreemly small compared to welfare tot he rich which accounts to over 1 million dollars for every dollar spent on payments to the poor......i agree on ending dependance and entitlement to other peoples money but what needs the most attention.....stopping the culvert of wasted tax dollars to the allready rich or stopping the driping faucet of money going mainly to famillies that really need it......and 90% of those on welfare to dependant famillies reall really need it......

Can an apple tree drop an orange? It is tough but how can an illegal alien create a legal child? It would be mean to deport the illegal and break up the family, so treat them as a unit and deport them all. Modify the laws to support the process.
We will always have problems that need attention in this country. That doesn't mean we should become isolationists to solve those problems. That will just creat more and bigger problems.
I have belonged to The IAFF, The Aviation Machinists, The Brotherhood of Railway and Steamship Clerks and Employees, and the Steelworkers. Mostly they all had their hand in my pocket for very little return. I am not refuting the history of union/management relations, just the fact that the unions no longer represent the worker. The union leadership has much more in common with the management types across the table than they do with the rank and file. They play golf together, they belong to the same clubs, etc.
Unions help kill KACC. They shut down the Ravenswood facility and so many others I cannot list them all. You wonder why so many businesses go off shore? Take a hard look at union operations in the last 50 years. The Unions and the litiginous liability game have destroyed more free enterprise than Stalin could have if given a free hand.

lupo,lupo,lupo...

I guess I will try to learn from the perspective from which you speak, but it is very different than my own, I have been broker than broke before, when I was out on my own with a highschool diploma, and I have hung around with people who will always be broke....

I now support my wife and two children in a dumpy little place on a couple of acres which we own, I have my own business, and have had for the last 10 years, my wife does not work other than 24/7 taking care of us and maybe volunteering at the school once in a while.......

I know people who are activly seeking ways to get "free money", but could not be counted upon to show up for a job more than twice a week, they are lazy bastids, and they should be starving to death, they will NEVER be productive members of society/economy as long as there is an alternative. IF you took away every means of survival other than honest work, they would have to get off their ass and work..........

I think the welfare business is better left to the families of the deadbeats, the churches, and nice people who can afford it and get their jollies from having power over people in exchange for letting them act helpless, and that is what it is most of the time, an act...they have been trained to play the victom for money. The guys handing out the money are "enabling" the losers to be just that.

AND...

This crap about a family cannot exist on one income any more is the purest form of B.S. I have ever heard, it ranks right up there with single sex marriage !


How many of these "families" with both parents working and the kids in commercial daycare are just "getting by".....with two deluxe cars, deluxe home in deluxe neighborhood, deluxe aluminum boat not more than 5 years old, Hollywood style wardrobes for the whole family, bicycles, skateboards, computers, microwave "ovens", deluxe appliances, cabin on the lake, extra large 401K, motorcycles, jet skis, trips to the mountains skiing every winter, vacations to Mexico-Grand Canyon-Yellowstone-Disneyland-Bla-Bla-Bla...........

Face it, both parents work because the woman wants to get away from her real duties of raising her kids, it is not caused by the economy.

In case you are wondering, I am in the position I am in now because I try harder than a lot of other people around me, and I live in the best country in the world where a modest amount of intelligence and ambition is all you need. I got an old couch and an old freezer from my Old Man when I moved out after graduation, and a .22 pistol from my Grandmother, everything else I have came from me wearing out a lot of gloves and getting up before daylight and going to work for 20 years.................

Lazy people riding on my tax dollars suck.

Didn't see any reference to my being the only one, but I have heard there are a few "moms" putting in 40hr weeks, and hiring someone to "watch" their kids and clean the house......and many of these folks could certainly trim their budgets by more than "mom" makes............

I agree that society is driving this, but you must realize that society IS the greedy people who want two paychecks......


A mortgage payment is only one of the things a person has to consider when taking a job and having kids...

I am saying they could live in a plain small house, without all the bells and whistles on one income, and focus on finishing what they started which is raising a family, and I can show you if you want to come over for a BBQ some time....

I sometimes wish for some of the fancy toys other people have, but I'll not be trading away the integrity of my family for material gain.

I think a lot of people would be happier if they didn't have kids, so why all the pregnancy ???


No, it's not simply a by-product of sex, there are plenty of things which can prevent pregnancy other than abstinence.

It's too bad agreeing isn't more exciting...

Bush is still the least of the evils we had to choose from in the last election...and you know it.

i work hard too oregonian.....
i am a roofing contractor which means not only do i come home extreemely tired but i have one of the top ten most dangerouse jobs in the country......i dont like the fact that there are some who cheat on welfare and noone who works as hard as me does like welfare cheats but there are alot of folks that cannot work that need govt assistance for a period of time. and the number one cause of poverty in this country is getting hurt on the job....and its not because of L and I cheats......you only get an average payment of $50,000 for an amputated hand.......


.......im just saying you sentiment is about 2o years out of date......to buy a 700 square foot cottage anywhere around here is $atleast 2500,000 if it is on a lot not too much bigger than the house...and that would be a lucky find, the average home price now in puget sound is $400,000.... and its not because they are building them so big its because the prices are skyrocketting along with fuel prices and food prices and everything else..........sorry but the ole "i use to walk up hill to school both ways" crap just doesnt cut it anymore.......
the times have changed

lupo,

We have some things in common, I cut timber, that may not be roofing, but it ain't for pussies either....

My sentiments are not 20 years out of date, nor one minute out of date, it is called living within your means...if the head of the household can't swing a 2.5 million dollar house payment and still make ends meet then that is the wrong neighborhood to be shopping in, and likely the wrong county to boot ! (plus I'm sure you put in at least one extra zero)


As far as the down and out go(legitimate cases), I'm not saying they don't need and deserve a helping hand, I am saying it should not be the government's job, and dang sure not the Federal government at that ! Beyond the fakers and lazy bums, there are surely some truly needy folks, why can't that be handled by :

1) Family
2) Churches
3) Friends/Neighbors
4) Charity
5) Insurance policies

lupo, I reread your post, it seems that you may have overlooked the part where I explained that I live in example of what I said, if you really doubt it's true come on down, have a look, I'll take you to work for a day, and afterward I'll show you my personal budget.........I live in a modest shack on a great rural location, have 2 great kids and some pretty neat toys.........I never inherited a dime nor had any inside scoop on a great job. I started out cutting fire trail and planting trees, and when I heard about better paying jobs I went and got the job because I worked as hard as I could. My wife is a homemaker and I feel sorry for anyone trying to raise a family without a fulltime homemaker.

The minute my wife wants to pull the wagon, I'm ridin' !

The youngest is in kindergarden now, so the timing couldn't be better...

The women who will ditch their kids for a "career", are even worse that the one's trying to keep up with the Jones's(the greedy/career lady).


Something really unnatural about any species of mother who will shirk mothering opportunity, seems backwards to me.

All the "bad" people around, and you have to act as if W is your own personal punching bag...

Proud of you, Oregonian. My son's wife is a stay at home mom. And I'm thankful. Much of the trouble in the ranks of the young comes from not having a parent at home. Nobody there for them when it counts.
BTW the cliche about " A house is not a home" is accurate.

Your right on Aunty M., Civility kills. Like the media's preference for doom, gloom, and blood. You gotta create hate and discontent to make a thread thrive. Some can and some can't, Ichy'rhoid for example.

yeah- trying to keep the water and gas on in the house is "keeping up with the jones'"

i guess if there wasnt three of us in a 700 square foot house priced at just under a half million dollars, i would agree with ya.....

lupo, you FUNNY !

I sure wish everyone else was as good and as wholesome as me, too.

I remember a 750 sq ft house in my past. First house I ever purchased. Cost $6,000.00 in 1952. Principal and interest, $50./month. Traded my '48 Ford 2 door sedan for a down payment. It was a real cheapie even for the times. No basement. boo Oil potburner for heat. boo Youngstown steel cabinets. semi-boo
Had a great view tho. And it beat the hell out of paying rent.
Why would anyone pay half a million for 700sq feet? Yikes Not what I would call entry level housing.

average home price in puget sound area for a two bedroom house is over $400,000....... all the while,wages are decreasing in terms of buying power.

not what i would call entry level housing either!!! but immigrants(both to the country and to the puget sound area from other states) increase the demand for housing and the supply is limited.....
those of us that grew up here are being forced out and our city and culture are being destroyed. hell yesterday hiking up to rattlesnake ridge in north bend, atleast 50%-60% of the people we passed on the trail didnt speak english......

Lupo
That area is huge for Japanese tourists to visit.

true....i forgot about the buddist temple and the amount of tourists that come up to see it...

Uno de Mayo. Merde.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22275

Bush, kerry are one in the same their both members of thye same organization skull and bones with the same agendas.

Illegals need to be deported at any cost. They have no rights as a united states citezen they are not citizens. Round them up at the rallies they have no right to protest!

Micro

Hmmm, I think almost those exact words were spoken by a few Native Americans back in the day

i say we blow up the statue of liberty .....fargin french set us up for these immigration problems with their damn statue

Lupo
LOL that's a good one

I ride the fence on this issue. On one hand I want to protect what I have. On the other I hate to see people live in poverty.

Also if you think about it, what right do we have to say no to anyone who wants to live in the US? Hell, all we did to earn it was steal the land. Just a thought.

i agree..... i ride the fence too. i think the best way to stop illegal immigration would be to stop destroying economies to the south of us by our government and stop allowing banks like chase manhattan to intentionally manipulate foreign economies. that and debt cancellation.

but in an america, run by conservatives, no solution will ever be put in place for any problem that actually pulls the weed up by the roots.... only "solutions" to stop the symptoms

build a fence - covers up symptoms

if we create an economic tide that lifts all boats, people will not have the desire to come here.....they dont come here because they love the culture or love our movies like we like to think.... most only want to make money and would rather live in their own communities back home if they could make a living wage

thats why you dont often hear of a costa rican up here in the usa as an illegal immigrant....they have no desire to leave costa rica

humans desired to go to the moon....and they got there.....can we really stop the desire of millions to come into a country with thousands of miles of open borders? no way...... so the only option in my mind is to deal with the desire to come here.... what are they fleeing? what are the causes of it?

yet instead we lend mexico no help to catch their president who stole billions and fled to his yacht in international waters..... but the thief is friends with the bush fammily so our govt will lend no help in his capture!!!!!!!!

i also think that it is wrong that we can all go on vacation in their country but they cannot come on vacation here.....

Bush makes me wish abortion was retroactive.

Bush is the only thing between you guys and Taliban servitude...

You can thank me AND Bush later.

Chase Manhattan manipulates economies? Hell they are PIKERS compared to George Soros. He destroys a countries economy and their national currency too. OF course he can't be all bad, he supports Kak , Kerry I mean, and the rest of the liberal leftist nitwits.
Does someone have the number of billions he spent on defeating Bush in 2004? It was a bunch of bucks. He needs to learn to face 135 degrees to the wind.

Wish I had come around to read this sooner. I have dealt with union workers on two occasions. Both times they were the laziest bunch of slackers I have ever been around. Funny thing was, they resented the hard working guys who had "all this nice stuff" who worked for independant companys. Nothing funnier than a big pile of union guys hitting the break room every two hours like clock work and *****ing and moaning about every little thing. Upside was, they put themselves in a cage as far as wages go, and had little or no self thought process. Asking them to actually do anything was like crapping glass. Just talking to them about work was like walking through a mine field. Constantly on the look out for you to "say" something outside the lines of the "contract" so they could bail and you pay them anyway. It was never about what "we will do" it was always about "what we won't do".

Union workers.. clogging up lunch rooms all over the country.. Unions suck. In many cases, they "bargin" them selves right out of work. Most would rather deal with a contracter on the free markey system than deal with all the Union crap, and they get the job done, and get paid better in the end,

Which tribe? What did they call this country? Who Was the president? Where did they come from? Were they really here first?

We have an organizational structure with 50 states We have laws and those laws are being broken.

Are you saying we should just kick back and let the invasion happen? We have the resources to stop it. The indians didnt.

I support the tribal right to become nationalized citizens and quit sobbing about the past of which my ancesters had nothing to do with.

round up the illegal migrants and send them back to Mexico.

I have no problem whatsoever with legal immigration. These illegal people are breaking are laws, sucking money out of our wallets, and rubbing are face in it.

I think the "Tribes" need to sit down and shut up, and their "Tribal Rights" crap needs to be flushed at 9:00AM tomorrow........if being a regular American citizen isn't good enough for them, then it's back to cowboys and indians, and I also have a few drops of Native American blood in my veins............but I don't brag/complain about it.

Any of you folks going to the NIMIIPUU "Summer of Peace" event? The Nez Perce are hosting a remembrance of the Lewis and Clark visit. June 6, thru June 17 at Lewis and Clark State College in Lewiston and at the Nez Perce National Historical Park in Spalding, Idaho. The Military re-enactors groups will attend the event.
Any one with even a drop of aboriginal blood should attend.

"I think the "Tribes" need to sit down and shut up, and their "Tribal Rights" crap needs to be flushed at 9:00AM tomorrow"

I'll make a deal with ya. Let me come over to your house and lock you and nine of your family members up in your entry closet, (I don't care if you can't fit). I'll have some of my friends come over to raid your fridge and rape the women. You're not allowed to hunt, fish gather or trade to support your family, instead you can make due with the spoiled commodities that I give you. When you try and sneak out to hunt some food to serve to your starving/dying children, I kill someone in your family. When you cry about the cold and hunger I'll hand you a Bible and some small pox/TB infected blankets. After I'm done killing the rest of your family off I'll offer you a treaty, that says you can keep the closet all for yourself, as long as you never advance or become a permanent member of the rest of the modern world. I'll give you a little more time, then I'll take the closet back. I'll make sure you can't vote, or own property, because I don't consider you human, only a savage. then I'll draft you into the army with the hopes that you die overseas. If somehow you manage to survive the ordeal, I'll blame you for killing all the wildlife and call you something like "mup" or "injun" and make sure that you never get a fair chance as an "American" to advance whatever paltry population you have left and adapt to the modern world. When you allow me to do this, I'll go to every reservation on the West Coast and tell them to sit down and shut up personally.

The fact is, Natives don't want to take anything away from you, they don't give a sh** about you. They want a little room and some of what's left of the resources to maintain. They also want to be integrated into society as they realize they have no other choice but to adapt and that will be the only way for their children to improve on generations past and become self sufficient "red-blooded Americans". They want the same for their children as you want for yours. Food on the table, a chance at a good education, equality, peace.
I hope you spend every last dime in a casino, I hope your daughter marries a Native and has little mixed blood children that call you Grandpa and forces you to have just a little more compassion for what "ain't white".

I don't know what you think you read, but nothing in my post could have possibly drew a reply like that !

I don't have any concern for anyone's skin color nor heritage, I think everyone has the equal opportunity to succede or fail based mostly on ambition, and to a lesser degree intelligence....

I have lived and worked with Natives in S.E. Alaska, and I have seen their (so called)stewardship of their lands with my own eyes. I can not think of any worse way to manage resorces that what I have seen them do, they clear-cut every inch of their land, to the last tree, then plead with the Feds to trade them some other land for their unplanted clear-cuts !

Why should one group of people be selected out of the U.S. population for special benefits ?

Everybody here has decended from people who did the best they could with what they had, and none of us deserves the "right" to rape and plunder natural resorces based on whomever their ancestors were, where they lived, nor what color their skin was.

Org boy, do you have a bi-polar thing going on, maybe a little short term memory problem? In case you missed your previous post I'll paste it here again for your review...

"I think the "Tribes" need to sit down and shut up, and their "Tribal Rights" crap needs to be flushed at 9:00AM tomorrow........if being a regular American citizen isn't good enough for them, then it's back to cowboys and indians"

Did you comment earlier on another thread that you were a logger?? Have you never worked in a clear cut?? Did you post on another thread that you have seen the Tongass and it should opened up for oil exploration, because the Natives aren't going to do anything but plunder it anyway?? Isn't it hard to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time?? Do the natives in SE AK have more land than the state/federal private industry folks? Tell me, since you so informed about how the Natives are screwing everything up in AK, how much land, percentage wise, do the Natives clearcut, versus State/Federal or Private Industry??

I'll have to thank you though, I'm laughing to myself inside at how ridiculous your arguments are. At home, I'm giving you my own personal "New TK of the PP Board" award. Thanks for the entertainment.

I grew up in the Northwest. I started logging when I was 15 in Ukiah. It was public land that had to be removed because of gypsy moth infestation (silly me, how could I forget that the Natives must have brought the moths over on the Bering Land Bridge?). I've worked in clear cuts for the DNR and many private companies, but the Native trust lands are so rare that I have actually never worked on one. Oh yeah, they clear cut "everything" so they have nothing left. Tell that to the tribes in Grand Ronde that rely on yearly income from forrestry that helps in everything from education to elder care.

You can pretend not to understand my posts.......

I am definatly a logger by profession, never denied it, I also have a little commercial fishing experiance, and have been a licensed hunting guide, flipped a few burgers and delivered the local newspaper before that........

At the present time there is darn near nothing happening as far as logging in the Tongass, in the past there was extensive clear-cutting. Hopefully there will be more clear-cuts in the future, but not extending from one shore of an island all the way to the other shore like the Natives do. Modern forest practices are much different than historical forest practices, and the Natives need to be held to the higher standards just like the rest of us........

What is the harm in drilling a hole in the ground and pumping money out ?

OK, now I get it, Natives clear cutting is bad, Oregonians clearcutting is GOOD!!

Christ, my dog learns faster than you do.

I have seen the logging industry and commercial fishing industry first hand. After NAFTA, my best choice as a young man without an education and no family trust fund to draw from was to go North. In hindsight, i now recognize that both of these industries need serious reform in order for the resources to continue for future generations. your argument is simply, don't let the natives do it, because the white man deserves it more. That's why your argument is ridiculous.

Since you can't answer my question about Alaskan land allocation, I'll help you out a little. Tongass is 16-17 million acres. SE Alaska is 97% federally owned. 80% of SE AK is in the Tongass and is managed by the US Forest service. One third of the Tongass is considered harvestable commercial timber lands. 16% of the Tongass (1/2 of the 1/3) is low volume timber lands (due somewhat to clearcutting). 4% of the Tongass is left of the original Old growth forests, and you want to cut that down too. How much of that, say roughly 5 million acres did the Natives get??

You are either quite dense, or pretending to not savvy my posts again....


Are you trying to make people think 96% of the Tongass has been clear-cut ?

Do you think a clear-cut lasts forever ?

MUCH of the area logged in the old days (+/- 1950's in this case) in the Tongass is nearing marketable size again........

I don't like the way the Native corporations log vast areas clean because there is a big hit on the game populations, modern forestry/logging methods would encourage smaller clear-cuts spread over a wide area which lessens the overall impact. I also don't like to listen to a bunch of balogna about how the Natives care for their lands, a very high percentage of the individuals I met are only concerned with the dollar amount of their next dividend check........and *****ing about the white men cutting down their trees ! (These are the owners of the corporation who hired the white men to cut the trees down!)

There are also quite a few Natives who work for the logging companies, but not enough to keep the work in house............

"Are you trying to make people think 96% of the Tongass has been clear-cut ?"

read the post again, I'm saying that the Tongass is 16-17 million acres. Only one third of the Tongass has forest lands as the rest of it is glacier, ice, muskeg, scrub forest. The remaining 33% is considered commercial quality timber, half of that is low yield timber (16%) and 4% of the total of the Tongass is old growth.

So why can you clear cut it and not the natives, a clear cut is a clear cut. The best way would be to selective cut it, even though it's harder and less yeilding than the clear cut. You keep saying that the Natives clear cutting methods are bad, however the FS lands are a much larger percentage than the natives, so the FS takes many more trees, but that is not enough for you, you don't like natives cutting those trees, because that means you don't get to cut them.

Before you post again that I don't understand you, the reason I don't agree is that I am 100% certain that the Natives have not dropped every single tree on their reservations. That is just too stupid to even remark to. If you have proof of an entire reservation without 1 single tree standing on it, show me a picture and I'll concede.

That's what I hear..

The trees being harvested by the Natives are cut by me and guys like me...

If you want to guess as to what has been done, and beat your chest about it at that, then go ahead, I'm not motivated enough by this conversation to do your research for you.....I was speaking from experiance and personal observation.

AuntyM,

I don't know how you jumped to my not wanting women to think or work, I only opined that a mother needs to raise her own kid, preferably with her husband, rather than send it to daycare.


I have been mightily impressed by a few hard working women, I only hope they didn't have a kid somewhere in daycare at the time........

I think Black people are just exactly that, and they seem to have as many bad apples running around as any other color of people..........

Why are you trying to paint me as a bad guy, do you get a rush out of typing mean things ?

Aunty,
Took the words right out of my fingertips.

"I have been mightily impressed by a few hard working women, I only hope they didn't have a kid somewhere in daycare at the time........ "

So what does a family do when the father already has two or three jobs and they don't want to use welfare to make up for the things they NEED but can't afford?

"So mothers, gay men, and tribal members shouldn't have equal rights..."

Guess it's time to add the poor.

The people you mentioned have equal rights already, why do you want to single them out for special rights ?

I'm not saying there should be a law that mothers can't work, I'm saying if people don't want to raise kids then they should not get pregnant.....

How is my opinion that Natives should not be allowed to rape the wild resources (timber,fish,game,etc...) even if their ancestors did it ?

Should I be allowed to run a splashdam logging operation just because some white guy did it back in the day ?

If a guy is working more than 40hrs per week and still can't make enough to feed his family, then why did he have them ?

Who would take a job that won't pay enough to live on..........why ?

If a person just turns out to be a looser, does that make it right for them to bring a new life into the world which they can not even feed ?

"I'm not saying there should be a law that mothers can't work, I'm saying if people don't want to raise kids then they should not get pregnant....."

A working mother sometimes has to supplement the income in order to make ends meet, would you rather that family looked for welfare assistance??

"How is my opinion that Natives should not be allowed to rape the wild resources (timber,fish,game,etc...) even if their ancestors did it ?"

Best answer to that is this (quote from above)"I don't like the way the Native corporations log vast areas clean"

They have been here for 10,000 plus years, and there were always plenty of trees and salmon and everything else wild here, before you got here and started clear cutting. How did the Natives practice clear cutting before Manifest Destiny ANYHOW?

"Should I be allowed to run a splashdam logging operation just because some white guy did it back in the day ?"

If you're still clearcutting, than well....I'll just put it this way (quote from above) "in the past there was extensive clear-cutting. Hopefully there will be more clear-cuts in the future,"

You are bi-polar or you are Bill O'Rielly, I haven't figured which yet, or maybe both.

What if the guy used to work for somebody like, I don't know, Enron. All the sudden lost everything, not too many people in the market for his line of work, but instead of sitting on his butt, he decides to keep busy, at anything, even if it doesn't make him rich. Do you think that everyone in the middle class just magically stays there forever and never sees any hardship that could place them in the poverty class?? You need to get out more, or practice some volunteerism, maybe feed the homeless on the weekends and hear their side of the story, not everyone in poverty made a concious decision to be there.

Nice try.
There seems to be a lot of things you haven't figured out, although spinning another persons words toward your point of view is obviously not your strong suit.........

Making ends meet is not too tough if you have your priorities right, and that's all I have said, even if you are asking me to say it a hundred different ways.................


Someone without enough survival skills to put a roof overhead, and food on the table, hasn't reached the point of being a sucessfull breeder...

The spin going on is in your head, right along side the IOU note from God.

Sure there are tough times all around, why is it a governmental function to provide a safety net/hamock ? I think family and friends are a pretty good safety net, especially so if there are not being forced to contribute to the governments lousy wellfare program.

"Someone without enough survival skills to put a roof overhead, and food on the table, hasn't reached the point of being a sucessfull breeder... "

That confirms it, poor goes on the list that don't deserve equal rights according to Oregonian.

You're a real model of society, so what do you say to the strong old men and women left on this earth who survived the Great Depression, were they not successful breeders because the economy collapsed? Did they have a choice during the depression to stay in middle class because it really wasn't too tough as far as you're concerned.

So I guess if the mother can't work, even to help support the family and the family can't receive welfare they should just share some of your kool-aid??

Ya, there ya go, black helicopters, tinfoil hats, kool-aid, do you have any more ?

Spin it how ever you want, it is a mother natural duty to care for her children the best way she can, in some cases certainly a mother will take a job, my point is that many moms are working when there is no real need, they just would rather hire someone to raise their kids.

barefoot and pregnant... and stay that way!

I thought we starting walking upright a long time ago?

it's both parents obligation to care for the children, part of that care is ensuring there is enough money to pay for the necessities. Not every family has that luxury, and it is not completely in their control or their fault. If you had ever lived a hard day in your life and had some character you would be able to understand that. But, you've obviously been spoon fed most of your life and taught that people lesser than yourself don't deserve a helping hand to bring them out of their dire situation.

Actually single and gainfully employed, without a bunch of mutts in daycare would be a better motto.......

Spoon fed heh, you couldn't be further off, that is what makes me feel so strongly about people slacking. I know as sure as the sun comes up that bad things can and do happen sometimes, and it would not be the first time if I lent a big helping hand to someone tomorrow.........but it isn't the governments place to forcibly collect for everyone's rainy day. There are jobs open for hard working honest people every day, and there will be unless the economy collapses again, but we were discussing todays reality here weren't we ?

I've told you before that I don't have any problem with women in the military, just can't see trying to make them out to be Rambo for fear of her developing a complex about her missing masculinity.......

I'd be wealthy if I was charging you folks for all the common sense I've shared..............

I'm not going to fight the system if there is still a chance to fix it....

What happened AuntyM, have you gotten caught up in the gang mentality, we used to agree about half the time...........

LOL !
AuntyM,
You are funny, I'll give you that.

You are so internally conflicted I'm surprised you make it out of bed in the morning. Let me just recap here,

People without a contract that ensures work for the rest of their life should not have children.

People that are not able to take care of themselves like the ritiress, the infirm, handicapped or otherwise can only blame themselves and any "free rides" are not allowed.

Women stay at home with children and daycare should be banned, it is worthless if you live by the proper rules set forth by Org.

Wasting money on a bureaucracy is better than actually letting that money go to help someone.

There is always sufficient work for everyone, no matter what, and if you can't find, you haven't looked hard enough.

Any other bits of wisdom, you know, so I can straighten out my own life and live by your model??

Would it be too much to expect that in MOST cases families will take care of their own handicapped and elderly, would it be too much to help out a friend in a crisis ?

Actually AuntyM, I left the house at 5:00am this morning, and was "on the saw" at 6:00 sharp, same as yesterday, tomorrow I leave at 4:00am......time to make the doughnuts you know.

Don't feel too sorry for me, I aim to sled the Rogue for the first time next week....

I'm gussing you have never had to take care of the disabled or elderly? Simply opening doors for them doesn't count!

It is not cheap on many levels!!!

F-em though if they can't pay there way!

I could tell you a tear jerker or two, but what would that proove ?

I didn't say caring for family members in need was easy nor fun, but the right thing to do.

You guys are wearing me out rephrasing the basic concept of personal responsibiliy, and common sense..............how can you not believe in a persons responsibility to find food and shelter for themselves and their families ?

It must be nice having to never understand that some people are less fortunate and have no choice but to ask for help. Apparently he knows two kinds of people, thise able bodied who work, and those able bodied who do not work. Everyone else is fictional or doesn't matter. How nice it must be to go through life beleiving that everyone has the ability to do it for themselves.

"how can you not believe in a persons responsibility to find food and shelter for themselves and their families ?"

Again, in a diffeent tone, worded slighty different from before, HOW IS IT THAT YOU BELEIVE THAT EVERYONE HAS THE INHERENT CAPABILITY TO CARE FOR THEMSELVES NO MATTER WHAT?????????

Who says we do not believe in that? Do you not see how as whole society would be improved by helping those who need help? That is what exhausts me! Why have Police, firefighters? Why have public works, get rid of the education system to hell with it all, if you can't fend for yourself screw you!

Comparing the less fortunate to the situation you grew up in is futile and non comparable. Does everyone in this country automatically have the same opportunities you have? No! Should they???

Fishpolelease;
Is there anybody with you who could help you understand what you are reading ?

Other than a sound mind and body, what do you assume I started out with ?

What Org fails to realize is that if he has a roof over his head, access to the keys of a car (whether it is his or not) has ten American dollars to spend any way he wishes, has at least two square meals a day and steady work, on a global scale he is better off than about 90% of the world's population. Org is uncommonly bleesed and doesn't understand that, but the saddest part is that he is so unaware, he believes there is no reason for everyone else to not have what he has. He simply lives under the impression that in todays world there is simply no excuse to not have the propsperous life that he leads. It's good that you are driven to support yourself, and even to help your family, but it is simply not the luxury that everyone else gets to enjoy. The important thing is that when you realize you have it so good (and you do whether you believe it or not) you should feel compelled to help the lesser among us with the great wealth that you take for granted. It is what makes a society truly great is philanthropy, giving is better than receiveng, try it sometime, it is very rewarding, and eye opening at the same time.

Sound mind and body is still more than some people have or are even born with.

DUDE, read the posts, then reply !

WE were discussing the U.S.A. here, not Ethiopia !

I don't have anything other than what I earn through hard labor, and I am hiring if anyone wants a job..........guess what, I can't get any help because the job requires hard labor in dangerous conditions and there isn't many guys that specialize in that anymore, bumming pays almost as good, and they can watch MTV all night and sleep all day !

I've read plenty of your crap, it's very repetitive. You just keep saying the same thing, the government shouldn't be obligated to help the needy. I'm saying not everyone can afford the pitfalls that many people fall into, and I will choose to help that person everytime over letting them fall further into their sinkhole or die because they couldn't pull it together and help themselves.

EXACTLY !

Why bring Uncle Sugar into it ?

Because you and I aren't always going to be able to fford it, in fact you and I and our whole families and best friends sometimes con't afford. And the damned government already has stockpiles of my money that they are wasting on buraeucracy instead of putting it were it is needed, that's why.

HA !

That was a mouthfull, now reread your own words !

Do you have reading comprehension issues??

AuntyM;

We may have decended to whining and sniveling, but we started out exploring what in the heck makes those of other opinions think that way...

HEY, maybe I'M a victim........Where do I sign up ? !!!

Yeah, you're a victim of right wing talking points, go to your closest charity/NPO and volunteer your time and energy into helping someone less fortunate, that should fix you right up.

If this isn't the middle, then I'm gonna get OLD !

You can decide for yourself how far my mind has developed, but the odometer speaks for itself...

So how about them ilegal mexicans eh?

Oregonian, personal experience meaning real life arguments do not work here. You are trying to debate with liberals who rarely get out, live in a fantasy bubble, and believe everything there cronies say. In short your wasting computer ink.

George Bush rocks! Republicans rule, Hillary Clinton is a gerbil pushin lesbian, Democrats like gay sex, turn the middle east to glass and all that good stuff.

YUP

You forgot the smile face Aunty M. Oh well, there goes your crudibility.

Your wisdom is unsurpassed

Send them back seriously look what they have done....Just read those facts that John Lee Hookum provided...We waste our tax money to support these mexicans who are on our bill when they aren't legal citizens and they ruin the country with all the gang and murderous acts

WE should protect our borders better and we should also have a limited thouroughly screened amount of people come into this country to gain citizenship, it's what America has always done. Getting rid of "mexicans" will not end gang violence or stop murder. The reason these people rank higher on the list of Most Wanted and outstanding warrants is because they are hiding, they are illegal aliens, do you expect to show up on a court warrant??

Here are some facts about murder in America and race from the FBI: (national Statistics)
"Supplemental homicide data revealed that 90.3 percent of murder offenders were male, and 91.7 percent were over the age of 18. Of the incidents in which the race of the offender was known, 50.3 percent of the offenders were black, 47.2 percent were white, and 2.5 percent were of other races."

Other facts:(from LA County)
"In LA County, the highest number of gun deaths in 2000 by race were Latinos (473), followed by African Americans (341) and Caucasians (305). The firearm death rate in 2000 was highest for African Americans (40.6 per 100,000
- California Dept of Vital Statistics, 2000 "

More Facts:(from LA County)
"The victims and offenders of most violence in Los Angeles County are of the same race/ethnicity
- Billie Weiss, Los Angeles County Department of Health Services "

More Facts: (From LA County)

"The overall homicide rate per 100,000 population was 14.0, with a much higher rate for African-Americans (40.4 per 100,000) and Hispanics (18.7 per 100,000) than Caucasians (4.0 per 100,000) or Asians (3.4 per 100,000). African-American males were at very high risk for homicide (73.3 per 100,000), and in the age group 15 to 34 years, this problem reaches epidemic proportions (164.2 per 100,000)."

Those numbers JLH posted are purposely misleading to make it appear that Latinos are responsible for most of the homicides in LA County, which is completely false. They are only resposible for more gun deaths in LA county.

Rome fell and so will the US, now this won't happen while we are alive but remember this, we won't be the top bully on the block forever.

I am always curious, when I hear someone say something like that about the U.S. surely crumbling but not in my lifetime, how do you know when it will be, or how much time as a minimum until........?

It all really depends on how long the super-mega-ultra conservative evangelical Christian right continues to swill the GOP / Karl Rove Kool-Aid with wreckless abandon... and turns out to vote in to office more corrupt administrations like the one we have presently.

Stop that... and we just might have a fighting chance of survivin' to the next century.

Fail... and we're all DOOMED!!

Ha Ha
Dang it
You guys crack me up !!!!!!!!!!!

The salty one has a distinct advantage. He works with the Democratic stand up comedians. Dipsy Dean, Katastrophic Kerry, The Kennedy Swim Team Kids, and Breast Stroke Bill.

June 23, 2057 at 9:06 a.m.

or maybe I was wrong

June 1, 2006 @ 9:11 p.m.

Oh and don't forget the seconds

Sorry dude, forgot my crystal ball.

However if history tells us anything, it is that no one stays on top forever.

We survived and prospered as a conservative nation until now. Its the left wing bunny huggin panty sniffers that have brought on the begining of the end.

Dave D.

You said,"not while we are alive", I took that to mean not in the next 40-50 years but it is definatly up to interpretation, so exactly whay did you mean, and why do you think it ?

I have been asked on the forum to reply with my own thoughts in my own words, so I think it would be nice if we all did it..........

I can't tell you how many towns in the Southeast have become 50% Mexican in the last ten years. Some of them were fairly large towns. Entire strips of road around Atlanta are Mexican-- signs in Spanish, everything becoming bilingual. The carpet mills get cheap labor, eveyone else gets to pay for more schools. One company is being investigated for recruiting illegals form Texas to come work to keep labor down. A possible RICO case may be brought froward. It is a complete mess in some places. The marches recently have pissed a lot of people off. People who have worked in roofing, painting and house framing are being put out of business due to price. Other trades will follow in the next ten years. Just think, in another ten years, Seattle, Puyallup, Renton, etc will be 50% Mexican. Get ready --you can put a Starbucks store in Spanish since you all are nice liberal and welcoming people. Enjoy it ---

So now it's the liberal's fault that corporations are breaking the law by hiring illegal immigrants for cheap labor?? Most liberals have been branded anti-business and socialists because they want to hold the corporations accountable, which will raise wages in the long run and further stimulate the economy. So now they're damned for wanting to do something about the illegal immigration problem and they're damned for wanting to provide a living wage for their fellow Americans.

Sounds like the GOP has become the party of whiners and scapegoaters. The party of no-accountability.

What if?
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTBlOTVlNDFkNTYwOTg4YWYxMThkZmE2MWZhMmVjMWM

Why is it that some people can not see the fact that higher wages for workers equals higher cost of production, and therefore higher priced goods ?

People who are not skilled enough to be worth high pay should not get it, how else will you motivate the skilled people to perform their best if they are held down to similar pay as unskilled people ?

Have you heard of the U.S.S.R. ?

Well thank goodness for that, I am fed up to my ears with religion lately.

AuntyM,

That's because "crap" is made in China and shipped over here for you.......AND most of it is in a landfill in less than one year !

Heh, Now go try to buy normal consumable goods made in the USA.......

Oh almost forgot, that looks like some real nice stuff you guys make, but you're still better than Martha.

That's exactly why I think someone running a chainsaw should never get more than minimum wage. Hell, anybody can run a chainsaw, doesn't take any skill. Just think how much cheaper lumber would be. Houses cheaper. Of course Mr. Weyerhauser wouldn't take a payraise just because he paid the loggers less and had more money left over. Noooo, he'd naturally cut the cost of his lumber and plywood.... wouldn't he?

goharley;

The only reason I run a chainsaw is because timberfalling pays me nearly $100/hr and I still have the freedom to set my own hours.......

I can work 50 days in a row and take 20 off if I want, I can work 2 or 3 hours and go home if I want, as a bonus I don't have to work with a bunch of whining pussies because they would have never made it through the first week......but I can get online and discuss current events with them anytime.

AND, I can hire other timberfallers for $50-$60/hr when I get too busy, then I make almost as much as you smart/educated people who use all their fingers when they type.

"Better" is subjective.......

Get rid of them for god's sake

Hispanics + Islamodollars = not good

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22437

First we have:
And then it goes on to say:
Seems we have a problem, Houston...

my ass timberfalling pays anyone $100 an hour...thats $4000 on a 40 hour week so your making 16k a month? i would love to see that person prove it...

You're right, I was lieing to impress.........



Timberfallers (cutters) typiclly work a 6 hr shift, and not many people like a steady diet of 7 day workweeks.

If you read my post carefully you will probably realize what I said is quite plausible, even though it's true.

President Bush said, "Mexico is our neighbor, and our friend."

I once had a "friend" who invaded my house uninvited, molested my wife and children, cleaned out my refrigerator and cupboards, raided my medicine cabinet, stole my money and showed disrespect for the rules of my home.

He hasn't returned since I threw him through the plate glass window into the rose bushes. Problem solved.

JG

sardonicus for Pres in '08 !

http://www.americancomedynetwork.com/FLASH/MexTourism.htm