Nice to meet everyone and just to let the author of the topic know, this is a very good topic and refreshing to see all the great comments left by all the contributors.

Knowledge is key in making things the best they can be for us, the fishermen, and more importantly the fish. Going to the trouble of gathering statistics is an arduous task and sometimes one must allow for variables in calculations of fish and adjust accordingly.

Being a fisherman my entire life and having been granted the opportunity to learn from wise old cagey cats that have seen it all, One of the biggest problems here is that issue we all know to well called, "Dams". They were key in the declines of fish that call the pacific northwest habitat home.

Instinct in salmon and steelhead is very strong and if someone came to your home and took away the road to your feeding grounds, you would be inclined to move, just like the fish have. Alaska has always produced more fish due to the lack of human beings putting up roadblocks to their foodsource and will continue to do so in the future.

Fish numbers here in idaho have declined since the colombia dams and the snake river canyon dams have been built (even though we've built them stairs) to provide human beings with hydro-electric power. Hatcheries have been developed to bolster fish and for the most part, have helped in the upper parts of once thriving fish populations that would rival alaska now.

The fishing here on the Big Salmon and Little Salmon rivers in Idaho have been wonderful the past few years and its been an eye opener to me and some of the local old timers. Its nice to see, yet it hasnt been like in the past when you could visibly see the salmon and steelhead with your own eyes as they crashed through the water side by side, jockying for position to move up. I think we have been lucky in spite of the dams and the indian fisheries harvesting them before they could make it home.

To make my point, Until an alternate source of energy here in the pacific northwest comes available, the rivers will not be opened up to the fish thus things will not improve for them. We are now reading the book that someone else has written and seeing the end result of what they perceived as the Great King Salmon and Steelhead legacy. Our thirst for energy is greater than re-inventing the fish wheel that once was and maybe someday... will be again. Get used to the way things are for now, they are here to stay with us, and the mighty fish, we all know and love and rarely see.
Bigger Fishbowl = Bigger fish...and more of em... it's simple.

Even though we already have laws against wastage the egg stripping goes on. The tribes do it alot. Check out a local company called Cossack Caviar as one big salmon egg buyer....And by the way I was walking the Pike Place Market today and the big show at the fish market was attracting a huge crowd as the guys tossed King salmon one after the other for shipment out of town. They were getting $5.99 a lb!! The tribes and other commercials were getting less than $1.00...They had a bunch of "local" steelhead for sale complete with net marks. The Kings had sea lice on them and were supposedly "troll caught"...They were all about the same uniform size. All those thousands of Chum headed for the hatchery on Hood Canal that cost the taxpayers a ton to raise are about to be caught by the tribes...females stripped of the eggs..carcasses tossed in piles with all the males which they don't even gut. Toss them away..not even good enough for the dogs today..(dog salmon)...Not much of a decision for the tribes..5 cents a pound if they can find a buyer for the fish or $3.00 a pound and more for the eggs. Funny thing is that these netters aren't even supposed to put their nets in the water until they have secured a buyer for the FISH....not the eggs. yeah right.....

I believe the tribes are financially responsible for a lot of the chums in Hood Canal, especially the Skokomish Tribe. Our tax dollars aren't going to them.

There also are laws on our books that mainly preserve chums, pinks and reds for commercial fishing, both tribal and non-tribal...and we still get the opportunity as sportfishers to catch pretty much as many chums as we can, both in Hood Canal and in Puget Sound.

As far as the egg stripping goes...there is a law that forbids the fishermen from selling eggs without the carcasses. However, there's a huge loophole in it, one that allows the fish buyer to only sell the eggs. Here's where the loophole comes in...if the fisherman buys a commercial broker license, they can catch the fish, strip the eggs, sell themselves both the eggs and the carcasses, then dump the carcasses and sell the eggs.

Financially, it makes sense, since chum carcasses are virtually worthless, while the eggs are very valuable. Making fish buyers and sellers deal in worthless carcasses is like requiring corn farmers to sell the stalk with the ears.

The only option I can think of is to somehow make the carcasses more valuable to sell than to dump. The law that requires them to be sold with the eggs doesn't do that, and neither does the market. The fact that they're so prolific and easy to catch is the biggest factor...the market becomes flooded with low quality chum meat, and 2 1/2 cents a pound is about all they'll get.

I guess there are other options. One would be to fix the loophole and make them deal in the carcasses. The problem with that is that tens of thousands of worthless carcasses are going to be shipped all over the place and I don't see where they're going to be used.

Another would be to ban exports of eggs without carcasses, which would shift the disposal problem to Japan, which is where the great majority of eggs end up. This wouldn't solve the problem, but would at least let someone else deal with it.

Or ban exports of eggs, period.

None of those really help the fishermen, or the fish, however, as they'd likely cause even more of them to be caught to make up for the costs of dealing with the carcasses. Either that, or force them out of business.

If forcing them out of business is indeed the real goal, then I'm for responsible legislation that says what it intends, and does what it intends, with no hidden agenda.

An example of a law that has a hidden agenda and a different intent than what was put forward is the law banning steel jaw traps and snares. All of PETA's advertising showed kitty cats and other cute pets being caught, and warned of your children being maimed, by these types of traps. The intent, however, was not to protect kitty cats and toddlers; it was to stop the fur trade.

Another example is the Fire Suppression Acts that are up to protect us all from forest fires by cutting down all the stuff that burns. If anyone with a straight face can tell me the intent isn't to cut more trees to make money, but is to save us and the forests from themselves, then that person ought to get a job with G-Dub, because he hasn't been able to convince anyone of that yet.

Whatever solution, if any, is proposed, just be careful of what you ask for and what it's unintended consequences might be. If chums lose all their commercial value don't expect any hatcheries, anwhere, to produce them ever again. Also, if chums lose their commercial value, then something else will have to be caught to make money for the netters. If all they caught were pinks, then they can have 'em all, in my book. If they shift their effort to steelhead or silvers, then we've made a grave mistake.

I guess any solution I've seen so far for the carcass wastage problem has inherent problems that are worse than the problem it is intended to solve.

How about the state/tribes/feds buy the carcasses for 2 1/2 cents/lb. and uses them to fertilize streams? I'm sure there are biological issues to deal with...but perhaps they could be overcome. Maybe less problems caused by this solution than by others...

Fish on...

Todd.

Good points on the Chums. Seeding the rivers with carcasses is happening now but that is exactly what I think should happen more. The idea of just discarding fish simply promotes a disregard for the species. Kind of cheapens the whole thing. I am aware that the tribes do their share of hatchery production and in their case as in the case of alot of the hatcheries they are susidizing commercial fishermen. Hatcheries oftentimes produce fish that cost many times more to create than what they bring on the open market. The tribes are doing a big business in netted wild steelhead along with the hatchery versions.

As usuall I agree with everything you just said. am an ex comercial that has made some mony selling roe to the Asians.I think the biggest problem with using hatchery fish for fertilizer is the problems the state has had in the past with disease.They are afraid to spread the hatchery fish alll over the state because of disease.Verifying "disease free"cost big bucks.

ban any salmon exports and legally curb the demand for wild commercial salmon.

Chappy -

Do yourself a favor and read this thread from the beginning.

Good to see Rich's name back on the board...

I'm not sure I agree. When the supply goes down, the price goes up. When I first read this I thought of the problems with black bear gaul bladders. It is against the law to sell them, however it is still a big problem in parts of the country. The prices those things get are amazing. If egg exports are banned the demand will increase as will the price. People will still sell them, only illegally. Complex problem, with many angles to consider. Great topic though.

Why is this thing back up?

When i saw it I was a bit supprised as I havent posted in a while but I have been lurking.

I might be wrong but I think POS clerk was bringing it back up due to one of the WT threads......

The rivers on Hood Canal produced very well until around 1980. After that you can easily see the crash in numbers. What caused this? Well pretty much harvest by everyone....recreational fishers, snaggers/poachers, commercial fishers, and the tribes shared the blame along with the Marine Mammal Protection Act which allowed another harvesters population to increase dramatically. The habitat that was there prior to this decline is still their. One would think that this wasn't the problem as it wasn't what changed? Well the people in charge of restoration are choosing to ignore the obvious factors and go with habitat restoration as the solution. Anyone ever hear about the Tennesee Valley Authority, Army Corps of ZEngineers and Politics? It's called Pork Barrel Restoration in my book. Spend $Millions improving habitat that is already there when the real solution is somehow finding the fish to use the existing habitat.