To remind all of you that voted against it, you can send the additional funds (maybe a little extra) that were cut from your fees. All is not lost.

I am certain the state can use the money, and why should they have to account for it. I say go for it!

Herm

OK Herm, I'll bite, you can probably tell I'm a tax and spend liberal anyway . The reason I am is pretty simple - all the things I enjoy doing involve environmental quality. No one in the private sector gives a damn about the environment, except for how much money trees, land, and water can make them. It's the job of government to do things that there is no profit in, and protecting the environment is one of them, not to mention raising fish in hatcheries, managing fisheries, marking fish, and enforcing fish and wildlife harvest and environmental quality laws. Also, by the way, it seems to be the job of government to build and maintain the roads and boat launches that get us to the fish, to keep the criminals somewhat locked up so they stay away from our fishing stuff, and to educate people so they don't become criminals. None of this can be done at a profit, at least not at one most of us are willing to pay, and so has to be done by the government at a loss. This loss is funded by taxes. And there is not a saint among us that is going to want to pay any more taxes than necessary. There are a whole lot among us who purposefully pay as little tax as possible, and there are those among us like your freind Timmy that seem to be especially clever about finding more ways for people not to pay taxes. Hell, he even makes his living illegally skimming campaign funds off the top of his little scam. And yet you still vote for his initiatives

All you anti-tax guys are doing is reducing the money the state is going to spend on your sport out of the general fund. Fishing licences don't pay even a fraction of what it costs to run the program, but the way things are going they are going to have to support of it. But that's business and only fair, right? Think about that when we are up to $1000 licenses

spawnout!

Did you send the extra $?

I think you are mistaken about nobody in the private sector giving a damn about the environment. Although we are probably in the minority (private vs gov. employees) most of us (imo) are very concerned about the environment. I get that impression at least by the many posts I see on these boards and the people I meet in the field. If it takes $1000.00 license for me to fish, why would I want anybody that doesn't fish subsidizing my recreation?

Herm

Hell no, I'm no saint either - I have simply retreated from many tax supported activities instead. I am sending my daughter to a private college, at twice the cost of a state university by the way, and I own my own 80 acres of duck swamp and elk pasture so I can still hunt relatively effectively and without having to commute long distances on crumbling state roads. I do, however, pay my share of income tax, property tax, sales tax, and B&O tax, probably more than most as I probably make more money, own, and buy more stuff than the average Joe. I just want other people to pay taxes too, especially for the things that I can't provide, like fish management and environmental protection. I particularly want the huge corporations and unwashed masses to pay for these things, as we as fishermen have a lot more to gain from proper support of these activities. If we don't support these things we will pretty much lose it all - which is why I have so much trouble understanding where those on this board that would have the government dry up from lack of funding are coming from

I feel many people don't realize that the "government" are our employees. I lean more to the left than to the right but when I am paying over $200 a month in property tax alone and then add in sales tax, gas tax, license fees, all the fees and taxes tacked on to utilities, federal income tax, blah blah.....I've had it. I want accountability down to the penny. Until I get that I will never vote for a tax increase again. And, I am sick and tired of "if you don't allow us to raise taxes again then it will hurt the children, we will reduce the police and fire protection, etc etc. Those, of course, are the last things that should be cut but cutting those necessities makes the voters feel the pain. A common tactic by politicians. When they started switching everything to user fees.....fine but shouldn't our taxes have gone down then? Shouldn't those fees be earmarked for the service being used instead of the general fund? We are in bad need of total tax reform and accountability in this state and by simply voting for tax increases over and over it ain't gonna happen. Tim's initiatives are meant to send a message. Make our taxes make sense.

I live right on the border of where the RTA tax gets cutt off. People that live 2mi north of me don't pay it when renewing their tabs. We're not talking about much $$, but it does seem a bit arbitrary as to the previous rules regarding who pays for that tax, let alone it will be a long time before rapid transit makes it up into snohomish county... Having said that, anyone who has lived elsewhere and had the benefit of rapid transit realizes that the provincial mentality that has prevented road / transit improvement has this state 20-30 years behind where it should be.

herm
You just don't get it

God Bless America

Ya know, why no one voted for these tax increases. because there is very little ACCOUNTABILITY to where it all goes!!!!! Just like that Gov.of Idaho Spent thousands on personal trips, limmo rides and vacations.

( asbestos fire suit is on )

Gee I guess I don't get it.

Thanks for getting me staightened out.

Did you send in the extra $?

herm

If our state had pretty much ALWAYS been run by anyone with a (D) next to their name. Most voters apparently not caring who they voted for(i.e. LOCKE) as long as there is the (D). Why are we having such a quandary and so many problems? Yet the left (LIBS) in this state say it's the right that caused it(TIMMY)?? Really the problem lies in who you vote for and our idiot incumbents not doing what the majority of THE PEOPLE vote for! There wouldn't be a TIMMY if our incumbents just LISTENED. THEY created TIMMY and only they will be able to get rid of him, I think you know how. Could it be Listening???

Why weren't we building roads and putting money away when the economy was so great? That's right, We've got to pay for studying the affects of the pine cone falling on the tree beetle and how the beetle feels about that

LOCKE has been in for two terms and will probably get voted in for 3 just because of that (D). So now all those LIBS got this guy 'TIMMY' to pin all their problems on.. The left wingers want to tax the hell out of us so that the general population is completely dependant on the govt for EVERYTHING!! Look at us now. 3 BILLION deficit....all because of TIMMY and his skimming Right

I understand that we do need taxes but not because someone is lazy(welfare) or needs drug counseling while in prison. Don't tax more on a smaller tax base when it may seem that we need it more...Guess what? When the economy picks back up those taxes aren't going to go away, it just starts the whole cycle all over. Make do with what you have!

Quit being sheep......

We may have a democrat for Governer, but if I'm not mistaken, the Republicans control the State Senate, if not the State Congress. For those of us who want to live and work here for the next 20-30 years, we had better get off our high horses and vote for people with solutions to these problems rather than the politically popular tax cuts. Industry leaders, including Boeing, have made their case many times to the leaders of Government and instead of acting on transportation, they put out these ill thought out initiatives that continue to get voted down.... Boeing and other companies are not kidding when their saying that this state had better get its act together before they pull out

We need to make them accountable but not by cutting the resource to get the work done that needs to get done.

We need to work with our legislators and let them know their future jobs will be determined by the efficiencies we see them initiate and support. I work in a program for an agency that receives government funding, if we make a mistake or someone thinks we are not being efficient we hear about it. If they contact a local representative or the director of the state program we hear about it immediately. We run our program as efficiently as we can but there are still people out there that think we are not, and they DO have the right to call us on it, we are using public funds. We do strive to be better and more efficient.

I came down hard on herm, don't even know the guy personally but the point I was trying to make is it is our government and we do have more control than we think, but the government needs to get more feedback, and not just complaining, bring your solutions, the strength is in our smart articulate citizens(more feedback to: govenors, legislators, state program directors). You might do it, I might do it but we are a small minority compared to the amount of people who would like to see change that never get off their butts and do it, they think they are doing through the intitiative system.

Good post herm, gets my blood going on a rainy windy day when I had to cancel my Oly Penn plans for the second time in 3 weeks. Kinda puts me in a pissy mood.

May as well have fun with this

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced the altitude and spotted a woman below.

He descended a bit more and shouted. "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman replied, "You are in a hot air balloon approximately 30 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be a Republican," said the balloonist.

"I am," said the woman. "How did you know?"

"Well", answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help so far."

The woman below responded. "You must be a Democrat."

"I am" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well," said the woman, "You don't know where you are or where you are going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault."

I liked that one PMartin, very funny!!!!

Spawnout, thanks for biting! I assure you I practice catch and release. I must respond to a few things you have said.

First,"No one in the private sector gives a damn about the environment." is just rude and arrogant. Obviously you work(ed?) in the public sector because you care about the environment and we(all of us in the private sector) don't. When everyone works in the public sector we will have a utopia. Socialism works! Yeah right! Better yet, Communism. They really know how to take care of the environment!

Second, "I just want other people to pay taxes, too." everyone wants OTHER people to pay more and everyone believes they pay too much. Especially ME! That is why I voted to lower taxes. No one wants to pay taxes, but before I support more new taxes I want an answer to this question: When does it all end? 100%? Socialism? Communism? I think not.

Third, "I particularly want the huge corporations and unwashed masses to pay for these things." Why does everyone want inanimate objects to pay more? It's easy!! More OTHER people.

NEWS FLASH>> Corporations never pay taxes. They can't. They can only provide PEOPLE with goods and services and redistribute the money to other PEOPLE and the government. More taxes = higher prices, it is that simple. In the end, PEOPLE in the private sector are always paying for it.

Solution? Since PEOPLE are the only ones that really pay taxes, there is only one solution: There should only be one flat tax across the board. No user fees, no fishing fees, no hatchery fees, no police and fire tax, no property tax, no income tax, no B&O tax, no death tax. Just one flat tax: An end-user SALES TAX. Everyone pays the same percentage and it is the politicians' job is to figure out how to spend it. This is true equality. You buy more stuff, you pay more taxes. Only with a flat, end-user, sales tax does everyone pay their fair share. Even the unwashed masses!

I will support all efforts to limit government growth until we have true tax reform. True tax reform will answer this question. HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

The deal is I do get it. I know we need government. I know we need a lot of things fixed. I am also aware that we are way behind on moving traffic.

Some of the things I don't get are high speed ferries.

Passenger only ferries that cost $6/$1 taken in.

I don't think everybody that voted for (Timmy's) was against everything that we were told it eliminated.

I'm not lookin for a free lunch, I would like some accountability, some tax reform, and some bills out of the legislature that were straight forward and readable.

Whats wrong with sayin what you are going to do with the money.

I don't think it takes 100 pages to tell me what your gonna do, cut it down to 2 pages , say whar you mean, and let me make up my mind.

herm

OK, I shall rise to the bait as well. My problem with Tim Eyeman is two-fold.

1. He reminds me of every smarmy frat boy I ever met

2. He puts forward initiatives (not all of them, but a lot) that any reasonable person knows are unconstitutional. He does this under the justification of "sending a message". The problem is once they are approved - the State is obligated to defend the constitutionality of the initiative - wasting scant resources and money. That waste is a classic definition of inefficiency and the message that we are supposed to be sending to government is to be more efficient!!! A classic double message given while Tim whistles to the bank.

The solution to this is simple. If someone puts forward an initiative that is deemend unconstitutional - they have to pay the court costs and Attorney General's costs in defending the initiative. I wonder how many messages Tim would send then? I have voted no on three of his initiatives simply because I knew them to be unconstitutional. And I am just a dumb fisherman from Puyallup.

Maybe Tim Eimans methods aren't the best, but how do we make the government act responsibly with our money. It seems to me that if we take money away the state might want to figure out why it costs us 20% more per inmate to house our prisoners than it does in Oregon, or find out why there are departments in the DSHS that have 50 employees and 21 supervisors, then fix them. Maybe they might decide that that 3 million dollar outhouse for the bums isn't really necessary. they might even ask the ferry system where all that missing money is. I know it costs money to live in a civilized society, and I am willing to pay what is fair as long as I am getting my money's worth. Washington is one of the highest taxed states in the country. Based on that fact you would think that we would have some of the best roads, and schools... But we don't. The polaticians clearly don't listen to the voters or even make good on their campaign promises. We are in need of some sort of revolution to bring our state govenrmnent back into our control. If Tim Eiman in going to be the leader of this revolution I will follow him until a better one comes along!!!

i think what threw a scare into the liberals more than anything was that I-695 required voter approval of most state and local tax and fee increases, no more closed door tactics and shady "quid pro quo" back to the unions and greedy trial lawyers. forced accountability to the voters scares the hell out of them.

OK ET, I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about private sector entities, specifically the ones that profit from development or natural resources. Ever heard of one of those voluntarily curtailing their profits by volunteering to protect the environment over and above the minimum required by law? And do you really think that since few if any government regulators are going to be around to watch them, after the budget cuts mandated by all of your favorite initiatives kick in, that they will continue to curtail their profits?

And folks, I sure hear a lot of talk about fraud in government, but has there ever been a fraud to equal what the freindly Enron folks did with energy once the stupid decision was made to privatize it? Oh, but if we didn't let the private sector bilk us for 150 times the true value of energy we would be communists - so sorry

And I do know something about why prisons cost more in Washington, specifically Staford Creek Prison, as I was involved in that one, it's those ******* environmental regulations, little things like requiring the sewer, water, and gas lines to be put under the highway shoulder rather than filling 14 acres of salmon-bearing wetlands to put them in, and directionally drilling these lines under 8 streams rather than digging them up and doing it the cheap way. Oh, but wait a minute, we all like to catch salmon and ***** like hell when the fishing isn't any good. Well, if you want to put a prison in a relatively pristine and undeveloped portion of the watershed it's going to cost more to build it and not kill salmon. I personally lobbied hard to get the damn thing sited in some dryland wheat field, but when that didn't happen I lobbied even harder to get the thing built without environmental impacts. Damn communist thing to do though, it made it cost more.

Face it, luch isn't free, and even if you could convince me that it doesn't cost even more if prepared by a private, for profit company than it does when prepared by the government, you sure as hell aren't going to convince me it costs less. <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" />

I dont know why im replying to this..... Im dumb when it comes to this stuff. But can anyone tell me what the state is doing with the millions of dollars its making from the lottery? And also... what about the casino's?? Im no rocket scientist mind you, but I do have a strange feeling that our tax money gets spent frivolously. Not looking to make waves here, but I do believe that if the money were spent properly allot more could be done with what is already there. ????? !!!! ???? <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[santa]" title="" src="graemlins/santa.gif" /> I put Santa here to help signify the State of Washington government. The lottery is a great example. The state lottery was created with the express purpose of generating funds for education...(look up the history). Once it became a reality the money did not go to education at all but simply went into the general fund. If a list of political broken promises used to raise taxes were made it would wrap around the globe . No need to even give examples because we all could make a big list of our own. What really kills me though is how the population of this state votes FOR accountability initiatives and then turns right around and votes over and over again for the morons who populate the capital. Too many freaks not enough circuses if you ask me.

I totaly agree grandpa with that statement. Now where the hell do the funds go that the state makes from the casino's? I cant help but feel im being raped every year. I would agree to volunteer in a hatchery any day. I dont trust the state to use my money as they say they do. Its a sad truth to me, but thats the way I feel none the less.

The tribes are the ones pocketing the casino money for the most part. Now they want to keep the sales tax collected on the rez..the newest example is in Marysville. The new Tulalip casino looks like the MGM Grand and next to it is an industrial development with Home Depot and other big tenants.. The state comes up short again. No rant against the Tulalips though as they actually are doing alot of good for the citizens of their "nation".
What bugs me the most is that the State of Washington acts like a socialist country. Give and give and give to those you contribute the least and take take take from those who contribute the most. The democratic politicians gather alot of voters to their fold by following the Democratic Golden Rule:

" Rob Peter to pay Paul...and Paul will always be your friend"....

I like the other golden rule: "He who has the gold..makes the rules"

All I have to say is this state needs a change!! We have had a Democratic governor for about 20 years!! Things aren't looking good to me. I agree that government needs to more accountable. We also don't need idiots like Eiman putting initiatives out there that look good, but hurt the state!! Tax cuts sound good and look good, but things have to be payed some how. Governement needs to be more efficient. Although if you take away all the money they can only do so much?

So for all of you complaining. We have been doing what the liberal democrates have wanted to do. Maybe we should try and see if the Republicans can make a difference Ya that makes sense !!

Thats all for me
Buck

A report out this week shows that outdoor activities generate over $2 Billion dollars to the state. What does Governor Locke propose??? Close three hatcheries! Other non-fishing related but ridiculous Locke proposals include cutting back on teachers, firemen,police and other vital services. All the while we have free housing going up all over and a new hotel in downtown Seattle for chronic drunks...We have become a magnet for the homeless and the welfare crowd. Politicians ALWAYS propose to cut the most popular things in the budget and NEVER propose to cut back on the gravy train giveaway boondoggles...WHY? because the recipients of all the free stuff vote DEMOCRAT...It is such BULLCRAP it makes me sick...

Lots of great discussion here. I am sure I am not alone being willing to pay taxes for the programs I like, and complain about paying for those I don't.
Accountability is the issue to me as well. Mr. E's initiatives, designed to shake up the legislature, create only a hand wringing reactionary effect, instead of proactivity. This "woe is me" attitude crosses all party lines. The initative process in this, my native state, has in the last 5 years lead to unfunded spending mandates and tax cuts without alternatives.
A common sentiment here is to "vote the *******s out". I don't disagree, but who among us here is going to step up and be voted in? Collectively we complain, and collectively decline to offer the ultimate answer-seek office and make changes ourselves.

As I mentioned in the opening, alas all is not lost!

Send in the money, the state will take it! h

Eyman's buying me a free lunch? Did I read that right??

Oh, it's just politics again. Never mind.

This is one big birdsnest of a topic, but i hear what alot of you are saying.I don't agree with some but thats the way it is. I will say that i feel that our problems are not Party specific, meaning that they both like the hog trough way too much to give up what they are already getting.I will continue to vote for any initiative that comes down the road untill the politicains become accountable for their spending habits, let them go without health insurance, a chef in the capital, subsidized housing and all the benefits that come with the job " that they wanted" The retirement alone should be enough of an incentive to want to be in public office, My God, listen this is what the politicains want us to continue to fight amongst ourselves and keep our eyes off of what they are doing.We get raped and complain, they say they will make sacrifices, but the sacrifices are made by you and I.Then they say they have to cut funding,for the most basic things????????????????
Who the *^&& is in charge, when i go out to eat if i don't like how my steak is cooked i send it back, make no mistake "We are picking up the tab for their mistakes"

This is pretty funny!

No government is bad!
Some government is good!
A lot of government is even worse than no government!

Think about the hypocrisy of what we now have. It's kind of like our waters that we are now fishing in;

No water is bad!
Some water is good!
A lot of water is even worse when it comes to fishing.

Make no mistake about it; it's all about money, money, money, and more money! It doesn't really matter what party you belong to; it only matters when you are paying more taxes, and you believe that you are receiving nothing as benfits.

Government employees will never complain as long as they are getting all the perks that they want. Take away, or threaten to take away any of "their perks" and all hell will break loose!

The old saying "you get what you pay for" certainly applies to this thread. The big question here is; do you believe that you have gotten what you have paid for?

It sounds to me that many have not!

Cowlitzfisherman

Lotsa talk about waste in government, and lotsa questions about what state government is spending their money on. Well, there is a little tool that anyone can use, it's called FOIA (Freedom of Information Act). Every state agency has to allow you to look at, and copy if you want on the state machine at 10 cents a page, any written product produced on state time. So you can go to any agency you have a question about, fill out the FOIA form, and ask for any document that you are interested in, including financal statements broken down into individual purchases (ask for the order payment form) if you want. Every dollar is accounted for - it's the law. State books are way better than any private corporation books, believe me. So those of you who are suspicious, help yourselves, all the books are open (unlike private industry). Let us know if you really find something "fishy"

Tim Eyman has his obvious faults, but I still have to give the guy props. What his initiatives are proving (other than we will always vote for lower taxes) is that the people of this state are fed up with our inadquate elected officals and the enormous misapporpriations and mishandling of the funds we provide every year. If we had a better leadership in this state, we wouldn't have a NEED for good ol' Tim. If he didn't stir the pot, who would?

Do I believe his initiatives are GOOD for Washington? NO.

Did I vote for them? YES!

Spawnout

Dream on!

As just one (1) example, public utilities are under the "same" FOIA rule as any other governmental agency or services. I have made numerous FOIA request, and our attorney has also made numerous FOIA requests as well, and we both have been given the usual "legal runaround jerk". The Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) is limited!

Unlike other issues that you have posted, I think that this time you are lacking the knowledge to give advice on this issue…no I know that you are!

FOIA is a tool that one can use, depending on what you are requesting. BUT more often than not, your FOIA's request answer IS "manipulated" almost every time! Do not, I repeat, do not try to TELL ME about what the powers of a FOIA request can do! FOIA is limited to only certain information, and usually only after a governmental attorney(s) have reviewed it and authorized its release.

I have made no less then 50 FOIA requests in the past 2 years. About 50% of the time, I get what I had requested! The other 50% of the time, I get a reply from an attorney telling me that a certain percent of what I have requested is "not available" because it is either tied up in litigation, or it falls under the umbrella of the "client privileged" information.

You may know about fish, but you certainly are not an expert on FOIA…even though you may think you are!

P.S.; it's not a set copy charge of 10 cents a copy, it can and usually does cost you a lot more then 10 cents a copy! The cost of "copying" is whatever it cost them to "make a copy"! Some copies of governmental documents will cost you well over $1.00 each depending on what document you are coping.

Cowlitzfisherman

Everyone must take CWUgirl's opinion with a grain of salt as it very biased!!

...she thinks Timmey is a fine piece of sleezy watch selling ass and wants to have his babies!!

She has told me so on numerous occasions!!

You know the fishing has got to be pretty slow when we spend this much time on a Fishin BB talking politics . I think one of the biggest problems is that not many of these politicians are river fisherman.

If the fishing picks up at least we will have some stories to tell.

Sparks, please don't pass off your bizzare Eyman love on to me.. I just respect his pot stirring.. while I think you are interested in more??

Sparks is just jealous because he can't crack the political whip like myself. He's stuck with "watch selling ass." Rather sad, really!!

AHHHHHH a know it all, well spawnout, perhaps you should take all of that wisdumn and run for office, you could go down there and join ole govenor Grid-Locke and pals and help with the raping of our coffers.I have infinite dealings with the state and i can tell you that if they want to sit on their hands there is not a single darn thing anyone can do about it, so blather on about this or that, but don't tell me that everything is there to be reviewed.
Something does smell fishy around here!!!!

Under the Freedom of Information Act you can get one bit of information for free...Bend over because you are getting ****ed in the ass by government spending. If things were so above board here in Washington why don't performance audits get done? Why? because the foxes are guarding the hen house...Head fox: Gary Locke

OK, since I obviously know nothing about public disclosure I'll let you all read about it for yourselves.

http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?fuseaction=section&section=42.17.260

And thanks for the bash responses, nice to know you care

The point I am trying to make is that fraud in government is not policy and is not condoned, that the process is open to inspection with reasonable curbs to protect privacy, and that it costs money to do things the honest, safe, and responsible way. Now if you consider honesty, safety, and responsibility government waste, well, I fully understand why you are Tim I-man fans.

I'm done with this one <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

It's getting near the end of the year, and I was doing so well ignoring this thread, but . . .

I'm a fan of the philosophy that the price of criticism should be the offering of a constructive alternative. I'm not going to try to fundamentally change our state government; that would be equivalent to changing human nature. We get what we get because that's the nature of pluralism. Some of you want a hatchery funded. Some bleeding heart liberal wants more money spent on welfare of prison drug counseling. I'm not judging the rightness or wrongness of either action. The fact is that enough citizens want each of those actions so that the legislature throws money in both directions.

I thought I'd join this fray to propose an alternative to the failed Reforendum 51, the one that would have begun several transportation projects but not finished any of them (sounds like it was written by a committee, doesn't it?). If transportation is important to the state, then R51 was less than a half-assed attempt at doing anything real. So here goes:

Any transportation solution that works will cost some serious money. A user fee is probably more fair than other funding mechanisms. Gas is cheap in this state. It must be, look how well SUVs and other gas-guzzlers sell. Instead of raising the gas tax $0.09 like R51, I'd propose raising it $0.50. Now that would raise some serious dough.

Like many folks, I've spent too many hours of my life stuck in the I-5 gridlock, slowly moving parking lot, inhaling a little too much CO and other brain damaging fumes. Many of us think that the transportation solution (Eyeman included) has to look like more of the same. More roads for each of us to drive our single occupant vehicle that is capable of hauling 5 to 7 in comfort and taking up lots of space.

I learned about flawed transportation solutions from no less an authority than Click and Clack from Car Talk. It was they who said "Pave America first." Pave it all, then you can drive any where any time. Of course there'd be nowhere you'd want to go, cuz whatever it was, it would have been torn down and paved over to achieve the drive anywhere anytime goal. It was then that I got it through my carbon monoxide afflicted brain that we cannot pave our way out of traffic gridlock in Washington state with a population of nearly 6 million people and about that many cars. There ain't enough space to build enough roads to the places that most people want to go. So an effective solution lies in an alternative to more roads.

So here's my pitch for the legislature. I already proposed a funding mechanism. I've noticed that the Max in Portland and the Metro in the Washington D.C. area move a lot more people per unit area than I-5 does, and they keep on moving when I-5 grinds to a halt. I think maybe taking the center lanes of I-5 out of auto traffic and converting to rail lines would be a better and more efficient use of space already allocated to transportation. Imagine Metro-style trains zipping north and south along the I-5 corridor from Olympia to Everett, with transfer stations at numerous major intersections where a commuter can catch an east or west bound bus to his or her destination.

A common criticism is that people are unwilling to give up their cars for alternative transportation. That is true - as long as driving a car remains a viable alternative. But increasing gridlock is the cure to gridlock, as it becomes an incentive to get out of the car and take an alternative. I'll probably drive as long as it is the move convenient alternative for me. But when it takes me longer to drive to Seattle than to take a Metro-style train, hell, I'll switch. And I think that is what will make the majority switch. People don't take the Metro in DC because they think it's the coolest alternative; they take it because the driving is the pits, and takes longer. Those who are still driving do so because it remains faster or more convenient than other alternatives. Same thing will happen here. Sooner or later. Well, it's already later.

There you have it folks. Salmo g. branches out from fish solutions to transportation solutions. Maybe I'll take on world peace in the new year. Speaking of, Happy New Year everyone!

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Spawnout,

May I suggest a new and (perhaps) a more fitting screen name?

You are a flashy fighter (lots of jumps and much splashing).you swim around with your mouth open (easy to floss),you will eat anything green(forget the ingredients), you are predictable, and above all else you are PROLIFIC!

Some wont eat you, some like you smoked.

Hence............CHUM SALMON............

Herm

ps.

Please take this in the spirit it is offered.
(just havin a little fun)

We might have a good time fishin, I think I could straighten you out.

H

Salmo g. for president!!....or governor atleast!

Salmo G. Interesting post but flawed.

You stated " increasing gridlock is the cure to gridlock, as it becomes an incentive to get out of the car and take an alternative"

Where has this logic been proven? It hasn't, because it isn't true anywhere. Public transportation does not reduce gridlock. Never has, never will. Gridllock is necessary to force people to use public transportation, but this doesn't reduce gridlock.


The only thing that reduces gridlock is more roads. Granted this solution may be temporary but it is the only solution.

You are right that the only way people will use public transportation is when all other means of transportation are completely jammed. My eight years living in Japan proved that to me. Japan has wonderful public transportation(best in the world), but people there still prefer to drive cars whenever possible and the roads are jammed beyond belief. It often took me and my coworkers over one hour to travel three miles to the office and yet they preferred driving so they didn't have to sit in a bus with people they didn't know.

This goes back to the underlying truth.... People are willing to pay more for public transportation so OTHER PEOPLE can use it. Just like taxes where OTHER PEOPLE should pay more!

My question to you is; When was the last time you rode on a bus or train? If it were available, do you honestly think you would use it? Or would you like OTHER PEOPLE to use it? Who are these OTHER PEOPLE?

I will vote for a gas-tax increase when the money goes towards roads, not mass money waste or carpool lanes for OTHER PEOPLE to use.

Good discussion- all info regarding gov spending should be sent out via internet to taxpayers to see how the money is spent, with a detailed breakdown on how many gov emploees get cars, spending accounts etc..

turn the light on and the cockroaches will run --

Salmo G,
Why just Oly to Everett?Why not the Whole I-5 System. Our states border runs From Vancouver to the Canadien border.From the ocean to Idaho.Much to some peoples surprise.Or dismay.
Too many people think that the only place that needs solutions to traffic problems are the area your talking about.
I realize that as a state in the whole everybody subsidzes everybody else in the state.
So fixing the small area your talking about isny going to help the rest of the area.

And again, Who is going to use this awesome mass transit system? Are you?

I drive the I-5/405 mess almost daily. I know it better than most. Actually it isn't bad at all after driving in Japan. Only from 7am-9am and 4pm-6pm is the problem really visible unless there is an accident. There is still plenty of land available to fix these areas if a decision would be made to seriously try.

Remember, the only way mass transit works is when you have gridlock. If you don't have gridlock few people use it and the money is totally wasted. How are you going to feel when your $ is spent on mass transit and gridlock remains? Actually how do you feel now because that is what is happening. Social engineering from Olympia. Don't you love it?

ET,

I last rode a train and bus while in Washington D.C. last October.

More roads cure gridlock in theory only. We cannot build roads faster than the driving population increases. We cannot afford the expensive rights of way in the places where people actually want to go. Adding more lanes to freeways after a certain size is ineffective because the number of interchanges and associated traffic merges becomes the bottleneck causing gridlock. When the driving population passes a certain threshold, roads and single occupant vehicles are no longer an efficient means of transporting people to where they need to be.

We prefer roads and cars, but we're unwilling to admit that we've exceeded their limit of effectiveness in certain areas. The choice is continued gridlock or alternative transportation. I'm on that balance point that I'll choose whichever will get me where I need to go most conveniently (usually the fastest). We can choose what we prefer (and sit in gridlock breathing pollution), or we can choose what works. Is there really another choice?

HuntNfish,

I only suggested Oly to Everett because that is the most crowded section of I-5, altho I've been caught in significant slowdowns around Centralia and Vancouver, but far less than the Puget Sound metro area. Obviously, I-405 is also a good candidate for alternatives, as are some others. Ya' gotta' start somewhere, and I was just offering a conversation starter.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo g,

I agree that more roads can not reduce congestion forever, but they can temporarily(probably for the next 20 years at least) if we try.

You agree with me that in order for mass transit to work, you must have gridlock, right?

So our disagreement centers around the question; Are we resigned to letting traffic gridlock continue to get worse and worse so there is mass transit for OTHER PEOPLE to ride and we can sit in gridlock? I'm not.

Perhaps we should convert the HOV lanes to single pss. vehicles and let the higher occupied vehicles use the remainder.

This would inspire more use of carpools and transit in my opinion.

It is very true that we need something to get people to set in buses or trains and get out of their single occ. vehicles.

herm

All this discussion about mass transit and befrore that the question of government waste. What do people here on the board think about Sound Transit and the light rail nightmare?

Salmo,

Boy did you take the bait!

Happy New Year Salmo!


Cowlitzfisherman

ET,
I agree mass transit works mainly when it's the alternative to gridlock. Most of us will only take a train or bus if it's cheaper, faster, and more convenient. I don't agree that we can beat gridlock, even for one year, let alone 20, with more roads. A main reason is that we cannot build them fast enough.
Vic,
The problem I see with Sound Transit is that it is located on existing RR lines that for the most part are not located where most people want to go. I think it is designed to fail because it can only serve a small number of commuters.
CFM,
If the hook doesn't sting, the bait can be worth it. Can't fish, so might as well have fun with this.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo g.,


We will agree to disagree. Wish I was fishing. I'm passionate about this issue, because I used mass transit frequently for five years. IT SUCKS! Crammed into a cattle car with a bunch of other life-less drones... most of whom are coughing or wheezing....

By your own admission, most people only take a train or bus if it's cheaper, faster, and more convenient, right? Lets look at that:

Faster - Mass transit can only be faster if there is complete gridlock. Think of all the stops and transfers you need on mass transit.

Convenient - What is more convenient than jumping in your car and driving straight to where you want to go?

Cheaper - Roads are cheaper now and we have plenty of room if we'd look at it seriously. Our WA population really isn't growing that fast and may actually be declining with this economic slowdown. At some point, mass transit(bus and rail) will be a necessary evil, but thankfully we are nowhere near the population density required to make it feasible. We are not New York, Chicago, or Tokyo, yet. We should make long-range plans(30+ years) to decide where we are going to put the light rail, etc. I concur with your idea of right down the middle of I-5. Best spot for it, just 30 years to soon.

So again mass transit fails at least two of your three requirements. And you still haven't answered my question. Who is going to ride on it? Not me. Not anyone I know. You?Anyone on this board? Who are we building this for?

The people who support more taxes for mass transit do so because they believe the false pretense that it will alleviate the gridlock by forcing OTHER PEOPLE to ride it and then they will be able to commute more easily in their cars. WRONG. We will be sitting in our cars as the empty trains and buses go by. Ever take your boat on the train? How about your suitcases? Work material? Tools?

Supporting higher taxes for mass transit is saying "I accept gridlock."

ET,

I would like to refute yer assertions that mass transit is not convienient, fast or cheap.

The only two mass transit systems I have any real experience with are The Bart system in San Francisco which seemed to be all of those as was the subway system in Singapore.

Sincerely,
Roger

My Dad always carpooled when I was a kid in the 60's. He allways said it just seemed stupid to waste the gas when 3-4 people lived within 2-3 miles of each other and were all headin to 2-3 miles of each other. A little inconveinence to save a resource for future generations. Me, I got an Expedition and am lookin pretty special.
I don't think we will have to worry how internal combustion engines are gonna be gettin people to work in thirty years. I'm gonna make damn sure of it.