To remind all of you that voted against it, you can send the additional funds (maybe a little extra) that were cut from your fees. All is not lost.

I am certain the state can use the money, and why should they have to account for it. I say go for it!

Herm

OK Herm, I'll bite, you can probably tell I'm a tax and spend liberal anyway . The reason I am is pretty simple - all the things I enjoy doing involve environmental quality. No one in the private sector gives a damn about the environment, except for how much money trees, land, and water can make them. It's the job of government to do things that there is no profit in, and protecting the environment is one of them, not to mention raising fish in hatcheries, managing fisheries, marking fish, and enforcing fish and wildlife harvest and environmental quality laws. Also, by the way, it seems to be the job of government to build and maintain the roads and boat launches that get us to the fish, to keep the criminals somewhat locked up so they stay away from our fishing stuff, and to educate people so they don't become criminals. None of this can be done at a profit, at least not at one most of us are willing to pay, and so has to be done by the government at a loss. This loss is funded by taxes. And there is not a saint among us that is going to want to pay any more taxes than necessary. There are a whole lot among us who purposefully pay as little tax as possible, and there are those among us like your freind Timmy that seem to be especially clever about finding more ways for people not to pay taxes. Hell, he even makes his living illegally skimming campaign funds off the top of his little scam. And yet you still vote for his initiatives

All you anti-tax guys are doing is reducing the money the state is going to spend on your sport out of the general fund. Fishing licences don't pay even a fraction of what it costs to run the program, but the way things are going they are going to have to support of it. But that's business and only fair, right? Think about that when we are up to $1000 licenses

spawnout!

Did you send the extra $?

I think you are mistaken about nobody in the private sector giving a damn about the environment. Although we are probably in the minority (private vs gov. employees) most of us (imo) are very concerned about the environment. I get that impression at least by the many posts I see on these boards and the people I meet in the field. If it takes $1000.00 license for me to fish, why would I want anybody that doesn't fish subsidizing my recreation?

Herm

Hell no, I'm no saint either - I have simply retreated from many tax supported activities instead. I am sending my daughter to a private college, at twice the cost of a state university by the way, and I own my own 80 acres of duck swamp and elk pasture so I can still hunt relatively effectively and without having to commute long distances on crumbling state roads. I do, however, pay my share of income tax, property tax, sales tax, and B&O tax, probably more than most as I probably make more money, own, and buy more stuff than the average Joe. I just want other people to pay taxes too, especially for the things that I can't provide, like fish management and environmental protection. I particularly want the huge corporations and unwashed masses to pay for these things, as we as fishermen have a lot more to gain from proper support of these activities. If we don't support these things we will pretty much lose it all - which is why I have so much trouble understanding where those on this board that would have the government dry up from lack of funding are coming from

I feel many people don't realize that the "government" are our employees. I lean more to the left than to the right but when I am paying over $200 a month in property tax alone and then add in sales tax, gas tax, license fees, all the fees and taxes tacked on to utilities, federal income tax, blah blah.....I've had it. I want accountability down to the penny. Until I get that I will never vote for a tax increase again. And, I am sick and tired of "if you don't allow us to raise taxes again then it will hurt the children, we will reduce the police and fire protection, etc etc. Those, of course, are the last things that should be cut but cutting those necessities makes the voters feel the pain. A common tactic by politicians. When they started switching everything to user fees.....fine but shouldn't our taxes have gone down then? Shouldn't those fees be earmarked for the service being used instead of the general fund? We are in bad need of total tax reform and accountability in this state and by simply voting for tax increases over and over it ain't gonna happen. Tim's initiatives are meant to send a message. Make our taxes make sense.

I live right on the border of where the RTA tax gets cutt off. People that live 2mi north of me don't pay it when renewing their tabs. We're not talking about much $$, but it does seem a bit arbitrary as to the previous rules regarding who pays for that tax, let alone it will be a long time before rapid transit makes it up into snohomish county... Having said that, anyone who has lived elsewhere and had the benefit of rapid transit realizes that the provincial mentality that has prevented road / transit improvement has this state 20-30 years behind where it should be.

herm
You just don't get it

God Bless America

Ya know, why no one voted for these tax increases. because there is very little ACCOUNTABILITY to where it all goes!!!!! Just like that Gov.of Idaho Spent thousands on personal trips, limmo rides and vacations.

( asbestos fire suit is on )

Gee I guess I don't get it.

Thanks for getting me staightened out.

Did you send in the extra $?

herm

If our state had pretty much ALWAYS been run by anyone with a (D) next to their name. Most voters apparently not caring who they voted for(i.e. LOCKE) as long as there is the (D). Why are we having such a quandary and so many problems? Yet the left (LIBS) in this state say it's the right that caused it(TIMMY)?? Really the problem lies in who you vote for and our idiot incumbents not doing what the majority of THE PEOPLE vote for! There wouldn't be a TIMMY if our incumbents just LISTENED. THEY created TIMMY and only they will be able to get rid of him, I think you know how. Could it be Listening???

Why weren't we building roads and putting money away when the economy was so great? That's right, We've got to pay for studying the affects of the pine cone falling on the tree beetle and how the beetle feels about that

LOCKE has been in for two terms and will probably get voted in for 3 just because of that (D). So now all those LIBS got this guy 'TIMMY' to pin all their problems on.. The left wingers want to tax the hell out of us so that the general population is completely dependant on the govt for EVERYTHING!! Look at us now. 3 BILLION deficit....all because of TIMMY and his skimming Right

I understand that we do need taxes but not because someone is lazy(welfare) or needs drug counseling while in prison. Don't tax more on a smaller tax base when it may seem that we need it more...Guess what? When the economy picks back up those taxes aren't going to go away, it just starts the whole cycle all over. Make do with what you have!

Quit being sheep......

We may have a democrat for Governer, but if I'm not mistaken, the Republicans control the State Senate, if not the State Congress. For those of us who want to live and work here for the next 20-30 years, we had better get off our high horses and vote for people with solutions to these problems rather than the politically popular tax cuts. Industry leaders, including Boeing, have made their case many times to the leaders of Government and instead of acting on transportation, they put out these ill thought out initiatives that continue to get voted down.... Boeing and other companies are not kidding when their saying that this state had better get its act together before they pull out

We need to make them accountable but not by cutting the resource to get the work done that needs to get done.

We need to work with our legislators and let them know their future jobs will be determined by the efficiencies we see them initiate and support. I work in a program for an agency that receives government funding, if we make a mistake or someone thinks we are not being efficient we hear about it. If they contact a local representative or the director of the state program we hear about it immediately. We run our program as efficiently as we can but there are still people out there that think we are not, and they DO have the right to call us on it, we are using public funds. We do strive to be better and more efficient.

I came down hard on herm, don't even know the guy personally but the point I was trying to make is it is our government and we do have more control than we think, but the government needs to get more feedback, and not just complaining, bring your solutions, the strength is in our smart articulate citizens(more feedback to: govenors, legislators, state program directors). You might do it, I might do it but we are a small minority compared to the amount of people who would like to see change that never get off their butts and do it, they think they are doing through the intitiative system.

Good post herm, gets my blood going on a rainy windy day when I had to cancel my Oly Penn plans for the second time in 3 weeks. Kinda puts me in a pissy mood.

May as well have fun with this

A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He reduced the altitude and spotted a woman below.

He descended a bit more and shouted. "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The woman replied, "You are in a hot air balloon approximately 30 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and between 59 and 60 degrees west longitude."

"You must be a Republican," said the balloonist.

"I am," said the woman. "How did you know?"

"Well", answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help so far."

The woman below responded. "You must be a Democrat."

"I am" replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well," said the woman, "You don't know where you are or where you are going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but now, somehow, it's my fault."

I liked that one PMartin, very funny!!!!

Spawnout, thanks for biting! I assure you I practice catch and release. I must respond to a few things you have said.

First,"No one in the private sector gives a damn about the environment." is just rude and arrogant. Obviously you work(ed?) in the public sector because you care about the environment and we(all of us in the private sector) don't. When everyone works in the public sector we will have a utopia. Socialism works! Yeah right! Better yet, Communism. They really know how to take care of the environment!

Second, "I just want other people to pay taxes, too." everyone wants OTHER people to pay more and everyone believes they pay too much. Especially ME! That is why I voted to lower taxes. No one wants to pay taxes, but before I support more new taxes I want an answer to this question: When does it all end? 100%? Socialism? Communism? I think not.

Third, "I particularly want the huge corporations and unwashed masses to pay for these things." Why does everyone want inanimate objects to pay more? It's easy!! More OTHER people.

NEWS FLASH>> Corporations never pay taxes. They can't. They can only provide PEOPLE with goods and services and redistribute the money to other PEOPLE and the government. More taxes = higher prices, it is that simple. In the end, PEOPLE in the private sector are always paying for it.

Solution? Since PEOPLE are the only ones that really pay taxes, there is only one solution: There should only be one flat tax across the board. No user fees, no fishing fees, no hatchery fees, no police and fire tax, no property tax, no income tax, no B&O tax, no death tax. Just one flat tax: An end-user SALES TAX. Everyone pays the same percentage and it is the politicians' job is to figure out how to spend it. This is true equality. You buy more stuff, you pay more taxes. Only with a flat, end-user, sales tax does everyone pay their fair share. Even the unwashed masses!

I will support all efforts to limit government growth until we have true tax reform. True tax reform will answer this question. HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

The deal is I do get it. I know we need government. I know we need a lot of things fixed. I am also aware that we are way behind on moving traffic.

Some of the things I don't get are high speed ferries.

Passenger only ferries that cost $6/$1 taken in.

I don't think everybody that voted for (Timmy's) was against everything that we were told it eliminated.

I'm not lookin for a free lunch, I would like some accountability, some tax reform, and some bills out of the legislature that were straight forward and readable.

Whats wrong with sayin what you are going to do with the money.

I don't think it takes 100 pages to tell me what your gonna do, cut it down to 2 pages , say whar you mean, and let me make up my mind.

herm

OK, I shall rise to the bait as well. My problem with Tim Eyeman is two-fold.

1. He reminds me of every smarmy frat boy I ever met

2. He puts forward initiatives (not all of them, but a lot) that any reasonable person knows are unconstitutional. He does this under the justification of "sending a message". The problem is once they are approved - the State is obligated to defend the constitutionality of the initiative - wasting scant resources and money. That waste is a classic definition of inefficiency and the message that we are supposed to be sending to government is to be more efficient!!! A classic double message given while Tim whistles to the bank.

The solution to this is simple. If someone puts forward an initiative that is deemend unconstitutional - they have to pay the court costs and Attorney General's costs in defending the initiative. I wonder how many messages Tim would send then? I have voted no on three of his initiatives simply because I knew them to be unconstitutional. And I am just a dumb fisherman from Puyallup.

Maybe Tim Eimans methods aren't the best, but how do we make the government act responsibly with our money. It seems to me that if we take money away the state might want to figure out why it costs us 20% more per inmate to house our prisoners than it does in Oregon, or find out why there are departments in the DSHS that have 50 employees and 21 supervisors, then fix them. Maybe they might decide that that 3 million dollar outhouse for the bums isn't really necessary. they might even ask the ferry system where all that missing money is. I know it costs money to live in a civilized society, and I am willing to pay what is fair as long as I am getting my money's worth. Washington is one of the highest taxed states in the country. Based on that fact you would think that we would have some of the best roads, and schools... But we don't. The polaticians clearly don't listen to the voters or even make good on their campaign promises. We are in need of some sort of revolution to bring our state govenrmnent back into our control. If Tim Eiman in going to be the leader of this revolution I will follow him until a better one comes along!!!

i think what threw a scare into the liberals more than anything was that I-695 required voter approval of most state and local tax and fee increases, no more closed door tactics and shady "quid pro quo" back to the unions and greedy trial lawyers. forced accountability to the voters scares the hell out of them.

OK ET, I'm not talking about individuals here, I'm talking about private sector entities, specifically the ones that profit from development or natural resources. Ever heard of one of those voluntarily curtailing their profits by volunteering to protect the environment over and above the minimum required by law? And do you really think that since few if any government regulators are going to be around to watch them, after the budget cuts mandated by all of your favorite initiatives kick in, that they will continue to curtail their profits?

And folks, I sure hear a lot of talk about fraud in government, but has there ever been a fraud to equal what the freindly Enron folks did with energy once the stupid decision was made to privatize it? Oh, but if we didn't let the private sector bilk us for 150 times the true value of energy we would be communists - so sorry

And I do know something about why prisons cost more in Washington, specifically Staford Creek Prison, as I was involved in that one, it's those ******* environmental regulations, little things like requiring the sewer, water, and gas lines to be put under the highway shoulder rather than filling 14 acres of salmon-bearing wetlands to put them in, and directionally drilling these lines under 8 streams rather than digging them up and doing it the cheap way. Oh, but wait a minute, we all like to catch salmon and ***** like hell when the fishing isn't any good. Well, if you want to put a prison in a relatively pristine and undeveloped portion of the watershed it's going to cost more to build it and not kill salmon. I personally lobbied hard to get the damn thing sited in some dryland wheat field, but when that didn't happen I lobbied even harder to get the thing built without environmental impacts. Damn communist thing to do though, it made it cost more.

Face it, luch isn't free, and even if you could convince me that it doesn't cost even more if prepared by a private, for profit company than it does when prepared by the government, you sure as hell aren't going to convince me it costs less. <img border="0" alt="[eat]" title="" src="graemlins/eat.gif" />