I have for years heard the debate as to will it benefit the angler/ or be detrimental to the angler to honestly and completely fill in their punch card and send it in on time as required. Ive heard that by punching all fish caught, if your a successful angler that it would/could give WDFW the idea that the sport fisherman are doing to well and thus more allocation would be given to treaty and non treaty commercial fisherman.

And the flipside seems to be, that all the data that comes from the punch cards, provides valuable data that is important to manage our fisheries. How much info that is obtained from those cards is actually true and accurate??? It is my feeling that there are many fisherman who dont give a sh-- about the data they provide and lots more who dont even turn their cards in. Whats your thoughts??

if the fish doesnt get punched...you're a poacher, plain and simple!

...i have on occasion forgotten my punchard...the fish was always punched by someone though.

Technically having someone else punch it is just as illegal as not recording it. Catching someone else's limit. Not supposed to do it unless it's for a handicapped person with a special license.

And your buddy was illegal as well. "You may not: Possess another person's game fish unles it is accompanied by a statement showing the name, address, license, and tag number, date, county and area it was taken and the signature of the angler who harvested it"
But then you wouldn't have signed it since it would have been ILLEGAL for you to harvest it now wouldn't it?

Not that I haven't bent the rules myself, just tired of seeing people jumping all over someone like above when they themselves are just as guilty. It's all that "holier than thou" attitude again I guess.

sinker-
I know it is just illegal...you bonk a hatchery fish and go to punch it, yet you left your card in your car...what do you do??

Better the fish get recorded then not at all...just being honest!

Just my opinion

I punch my fish because its the law and I fear the consequinces and fines if you were to get caught. However

I think its a waste of time. Valuable information?? I see Indians net hundreds of fish, gut them for eggs and throw the fish back into the river. These fish do not get recorded.

According to the REGS, you are REQUIRED TO:

always punch all my fish...i seem to get checked by the gamers more than most people, probably more than 10 times this year...

Would be nice to hear from the WDFW about what they actually do with the returned(and unreturned) cards. Do they actually count and record the information? How do they account for the unreturned cards? It is hard to understand the value of the catch card data without knowing what they are doing now.

Fisheries doesn't advertise this little fact, but if you don't turn your Punch Card in and you haven't caught any fish, Fisheries gives the Indians an automatic Five Fish so if you have caught less than Five Fish be sure and turn your Punch Card in as the Indians will only get credit for the number of fish you have caught.

This little tidbit was related to me a number of years ago by Washington State Department of Wildlife Officer at a Fish & Game Law Enforcement School a number of years ago at the Fort Worden Conference Center during one of their Training Sessions.

If your with me you can catch my fish & Punch my card it's legal as I've had the Game Warden punch my card for me after another Fisherman caught my fish for me in front of him, of coarse I have Designated Harvester and Companion Cards.

I always punch the fish I keep, but I don't send in my card at the end of the season. Punch card data is used to monitor mostly day to day catches by game wardens. Depending on the river, seasonal catches are determined by creel counts and extrapilated to estimate total catch and return of a given stock of fish. Creel counts are more accurate and relied on more than punch card data because they are taken daily by a certified fish counter and because punch cards can be fudged. Both counting methods are used against each other to build the whole picture and depending on the river may have more weight placed on them.

The reason I don't send in my punch card, #1 they would have a hard time reading it, and #2 I don't want them to know how many fish I've taken out of a particular river. I just assume keep the sport fishery count deflated so not to give more fish away to the indians. If the previouse post about the 5 fish rule on unreturned cards is true, I assure you I'll send in my card if it had less than 5 fish. Luckly, I've been able to mark over 5 hatchery fish each season.

When I got my license last year the guy that issued my license said that beggining this year they will be required to ask for the previous years punch card. If one was issued last year, and you do not provide the previous years card upon request then they won't be able to issue you another punch card. He said this was all made possible by the computerized processing system.

I cannot gurantee the validity of this but this is what I was told. Source: Nothern Sales

Sorry I don't have the source handy, due to being several years ago, but STS ran a story to the effect that a few smaller streams in N. California were closed due to the fact that no one had caught many fish in them for years.

The fact of the matter was, however, that the locals who fished these semi-zippers weren't punching their cards. They made a big stink when the rivers were closed, which was when they discovered that their failure to punch cards contributed to the closure.

Besides, it's the law. The information may not be all that useful so far as tabulating runs goes, but it certainly keeps people from gathering both a morning and afternoon limit.

Fish on...

Todd.

Twice when I forgot to return my punchcard I have received a letter in the mail from WDFW asking for an accurate count. I thought everyone received one if they didn't return their card but I guess not?

I always punch my fish and turn in my card.

Many years ago I didn't punch a fish..and that was because I lost my pen. Got a $105 ticket for that mistake.

Fortunately, the judge was a close friend of the family, so my fine got reduced down to $5!

I hear a lot of whining from recreational fishers about WDFW mismanaging the fisheries. How are they supposed to manage a particular river system, or any fishery for that matter, without data? The more data the managers have the better it is for the fish. The more data the managers have the better idea they have on stock health and future run sizes. AS far as the Tribes go, by the time your cards are analyized the Tribes will all ready have their fish. Allocation is more of a North of Falcon issue, which needs more recreational participation BTW.

If your not recording you harvest and returning you cards, even if it's an accident, your a poacher.

Beezer

How would we feel if the WDFW provided false statistics to us? Or, more specifically, how about if they lied to us about statistics in order to improve their position?

Would we feel that that was dishonest, and less than we would expect of a good citizen?

I realize that there are those that feel that the WDFW already lies, and therefore any dishonesty we give them is deserved. I teach my kids that two wrongs don't make a right.

Sparkey- If you don't punch your a poacher yet you can fish without it even with you and punch on someone elses card..

I'd say it's the same you are fishing without a liecense with you your a poacher too!!PLAIN AND SIMPLE!!!

Forgetting to return your card by the date specified doesn't make you a poacher in my book. In 30+ years of fishing you are bound to forget at least once especially when they keep changing the dates. It should be required in order to purchase a new one but most License agents will not take your old punch card. Now that it's one card it is easier to keep track.

"How would we feel if the WDFW provided false statistics to us? Or, more specifically, how about if they lied to us about statistics in order to improve their position?"
Actually, they were providing false/flawed data for years and finally admitted so several years ago.

Punchcards are nothing more than an insurance policy against the damn game Nazis. I never punch fish unless I have to and I never turn in my card. I give those government workers enough of my money already, I'm not about to help them out in any way. The Fisheries Dept. is as inefficient as any other government agency. There is no accountability and the waste is tremendous. I'm sick of those fools catering to whatever the Indians want. Screw the Indians, if they can't live in our society, then they can head to a third world country and live in their damn teepees until kingdom come!

besides it being the law here is another good reason to send in the punch card. Look at where you live and where some of the rivers you catch fish are. These show the State that sport fisherman are spending money on gas, food and lodging to get your fish. Money which helps other people have jobs and tax revenue for the state. I will give all the data I can to this poorly run democratic ruled state just to justify money coming back to the fish and wildlife department. If you don't send in your card, well don't ***** when the fish are gone, you had a part in it.

I have to echo Silver Hilton. The dept needs the info to do their best (even if we feel it is inadequate). Sparky, you know you are WRONG by having someone else punch your fish, and if you are a guide, wanna keep your license??

I know I am wrong...I guess I should have never admitted it...just felt hypoctritical about *****ing about people not punching fish when I have turned around and did the same (on total accident though)...

Sparkey,
I just had to jump your sh** cause I get tired of the "holier than thou's" on here and wanted to get people to thinking.
I'm sure the vast majority of people on here don't follow the letter of the law exactly how it was written. And I'd bet money that just about every one has at one point knowingly broken a law.

This is for everyone, just remember to look in the mirror next time you start hollering POACHER at someone.

I think the definition of a poacher is being stretched a bit here and I sure hope nobody starts calling me one without leaving their name and address.

Wow, Luke, it looks like you've put an awful lot of thought into your last post.


"Punchcards are nothing more than an insurance policy against the damn game Nazis."

You've gotta be kidding! Game wardens do a tough job, with way too little manpower and resources to do it as well as it deserves to be done, for a lot less money than anyone deserves for doing a job as tough as theirs.

Why do they do it? Because they care about the resource. The only people who have a problem with game wardens in general (problems with individuals at specific times have nothing to do with game wardens) are people who break the law.

Why would you dislike wardens if you weren't breaking any laws?

" I never punch fish unless I have to and I never turn in my card."

Why would you have to?

" I give those government workers enough of my money already, I'm not about to help them out in any way. The Fisheries Dept. is as inefficient as any other government agency. There is no accountability and the waste is tremendous. "

I'd recommend that you stop paying taxes, car tabs and registration, property taxes, and B&O taxes for the high end think tank that you obviously own and operate. If you won't give those clowns at DFW your hard earned cash, why give it to those other "inefficient" government agencies.

Make especially sure that you don't let any of your hard earned cash make it to the Dept. of Education...they're obviously REALLY inefficient.

"I'm sick of those fools catering to whatever the Indians want. Screw the Indians, if they can't live in our society, then they can head to a third world country and live in their damn teepees until kingdom come!"

I guess I didn't know it, but Sen. Thurmond must now be spending his out-of-session time in Toutle. That last couple of sentences are so ignorant and stupid that they speak for themselves.

Backward ignoramuses like you are the reason that most of the problems we face as a society exist. I'm sure you've never felt that you ever owed anyone anything...

Fish on...

Todd

P.S. I apologize to all, but Luke, for the harsh tone of this post. You all know that I do at times respond strongly, but I don't usually reduce it down to calling people ignoramuses or calling their comments stupid. I just couldn't help myself this time...

Most of you are dead wrong! The worst thing you can do is return a blank card. The WDFW uses the catch information to see if we can or are taking our allotted fish. An example, on the Quinalt river, sports allottment has been reduced because the catch data showed that sportsfishermen were not capable of taking their share, so who got more and who got less? The tribe picked up the unused sportsmens fish, called "foregone opportunity", means if we dont' use it, we lose it. I am a catch and release fisherman, but I now know that I will be doing my part by bonking fish that are legal and filling my card. So mark your cards, bonk your hatchery fish, and return them, only way we can keep our pathetic numbers in the long haul.

I was under the impression that if you did not send in your card it was considered "full" and counted in "our" allotment.
Some one mentioned that not sending it it equals 5 fish.

Anyone have hard facts on this?

I send mine in, but would like to know how to explain this to others.

WDFW does use the catch record card information to help estimate catches and assign quotas.. Check the example of the crab catch record card. When that was first used they discovered that they had been overestimating the sport catch by a mile and they made adjustments. The tribes *****ed alot and tried to get around the resulting seasons as they always seem to do but the point is that the catch record cards did make a difference. So turn them in for heavens sake. If you think this is some big government conspiracy get help quick.

Well said Todd, a big thank you.

Sparkey,

You said "...I know it is just illegal...you bonk a hatchery fish and go to punch it, yet you left your card in your car...what do you do??..."

Just my unsolicited opinion, but I believe you should:

1. Immediately stop fishing.

2. Go to your car and punch your tag.

I doubt if you encountered an enforcement officer on your way back to the car and he/she asked to see your punch card that you would be ticketed when you explain the circumstances (forgot the punch card in the car and going back to make it right.) I believe this is far more honest, and certainly more ethical, than "...Better the fish get recorded then not at all..."

As others have alluded, exacerbating the situation by breaking even morel regs and dragging others into your predicament probably won't win much sympathy from that same enforcement officer.

I can't believe you went on the public record with "...I know it is just illegal..."

Question:

If its is so darn important for WDFW to maintain all that "viable information" about our sport catch records; then why in the heck is WDFW now proposing a new change in the 2003-2004 fish license regulations (i.e. #26 of the proposed rule changes)? If you don't need to have limits on hatchery fish (which is probably about 95% of what we are now allowed to harvest), why then do we want to pay for the cost of doing the punch card thing?

If they (the WDFW) are so concerned about the number of "hatchery" steelhead that you and I are catching, then why is #26 being proposed? Does somebody have their heads up their …?

To me, it's pretty obvious that the "old punch card" system is not needed anymore. It's kind of like using more of the old wire coded tags again to get more of the same information that they already know and have…so why do it? Is it possible that it may just be more big $$$$ for the WDFW budget each year?

I want to see just how much the "punch cards" program is really costing the sport fishers before I can justify continuing its cost in my mind! Maybe it's worth it…but most likely its not!

Does the word "bureaucrat jobs" mean anything to you? The only logical reason to me appears to be simply that it is a way that limits the amount that one can harvest each day.

Don't you wonder why the commercial boys aren't required to have "punch cards" too for their catch?

So it's supposed to keep us honest …right? But if that is true; why doesn't the state make us install a device on our cars that "records" each time we go over the maximum speed limit of 70 mile per hour. No where in the state is it "legal to go over 70 per hour"...right? So why not make us do that too? After all, IT THE LAW…RIGHT?

Maybe someone can figure out how much money the state would be able to save "us tax payers" if we did not have to print and process all those punch cards, the salaries, staff , and all the benefits and perks that go with each, and the computers network that it now takes to "purchase" a new license or punch card.

In my opinion, the "punch card" is a model "T" and its time has already come and gone!

Almost everything in the WDFW system is now done by existing "long standing data" when it comes to "punch cards". I am sure that they have plenty of "models" to run their data and get whatever results they may be seeking!

It has been my personal experience, that our "punch card" data for the most part, is only used to justify a commercial fishery… again, it is only my opinion, that it is being used in many places to justify an ongoing commercial fishery. That's why the commercial fishery is never cut short because WDFW always uses it's same age old excuse…we don't have all the punch card data in yet so we don't know how many fish have been harvested!

Punch cards should only be used/or needed to limit harvest on wild fish if they allow such a harvest to occur! Who on this board really care about harvesting "to many" hatchery breed or hatchery produced fish?

I know how WDFW has calculated the catch data and statistics on the Cowlitz in the past years and it was a real "joke". Maybe those times are changing, but I have not seen it happen as of yet!

You got to ask yourself; why in the devil are sport fishers the "only" user group that HAS TO turn in "catch record punch cards!!! That in itself should tell you "the rest of the story"!

Cowlitzfisherman

This topic brings up a question I have had for some time.

How do the quides, that catch fish and give em to their customers to punch out, not concider it poaching? Also, now many fish over the alloted amount per year are these quides taking by doing this. I have seen this happen, and wondered if the practice is widespread.

Chukarnut

Chukarnut.
This subject was brought up a long time ago. I'm still throwing in my 2 cents worth though.
I believe it is very wide spread,from what I have seen. Especially on the Cow and rivers like that where,there have been some huge runs of silvers the past few years.I guess one way to look at it is that they still get recorded.
Although usually on the bank after the fishings done.
I personally don't care how many fish a person takes out of some of those hatchery runs.They are there to harvest,and usually more than enough to go around.
I've personally seen a lot of guides hand off poles,give clients fish,and keep clients eggs.
One of the reasons they hand off poles is for the benefit of the client.Some of them dont know a thing about fishing and thats the only way they will know what its like ti land a fish.So they are doing a service to their clients.
I alos believe,from what I have observed ,that when the guide sets the boat up on a drift,he is in the best position to catch fish.First because he is the first person through the hole,second because he is in the best position for the drift.
I think if your with a guide, your best bet is to get the spot in the rear of the boat closest to the guide.Thats where the next most fish will be caught.And it will taper off from there to the front of the boat.
I know some of the things I mentioned are illegal,but accepted practice.and most people just don't really care.
I'm sure you'll hear some more heated opinions on this.Probably some directed at me.But thats what these boards are all about,right

HntnFsh,

You just brought up another issue of illegalities, and that is the one of punching the fish, after getting to the bank. According to what I read in the regulations, you have to punch before continueing fishing.

Now where does one draw the line when breaking the law? How much difference is there between taking over the limit, fishing without a license, catching fish for other people, not punching the fish before the next cast, etc, etc. Can one justifie breaking the rules if it benefits the breaker?

Just some thought,
Chukarnut

Just wondering if there might be a consensus here on whether you should repair your ball mark if you crater the green?
Like what if you left your divot tool in the car or you were in a hurry to get your round in?
Isn't that why they have greenskeepers anyway?
And the fees, they're simply outrageous!
I know it'll be my silent form of protest. Nobody will ever accuse me of being lazy.

Mooch, I like the way you think. What's your handicap?

Punch cards are valuable Information?? To whom. Over the past 10 years I have realized that the Sportsfisherman are on the bottom of the food chain when it comes to fish allotments in this state: Unless we unite and fund some political politicians campaign we will not be heard. Several years ago a GREAT proposition was voted down, BAN ALL NETS.

a. I have seen many times over the years that the Dept of Fisheries would put out bogus numbers of expected returns of salmon allowing the Commericals to over harvest just to turn around and slap emergency closures to
us river fisherman.

b. Last weekend 7 rivers up North were closed because of poor returns. I havent turned in my punch card yet. How is my punch card going to help this?

c. Governor Locke just cut the budget for hatcheries. Several hatcheries have already been closed with many more targeted!

d. Look closely to the Cowlitz. Tacoma Power had a 30 year contract that required renegotiating this year. They want to decrease there PROMISED responsibility of managing the hatcheries. They want to save MONEY by reducing the amount of smolts!!!

The fish in this state are regulated by special interest groups. Not the importance of managing fish and habitat. Timber, Dams, Commercials and Indians.

Unless we adopt a FISH FIRST like Alaska does, the dismal returns now will be gone in a few years. Talk to the Old timers how fishing use to be years ago.

Fishaddict

Right on!!!


Cowlitzfisherman

Hello everybody,

I am new to the board. I cannot believe how many people think that by not punching your card your a poacher talk about misinformed or bored with no fish, give me a break! there is a this thing in the regs called a limit if you go over that you could be considered a poacher or if your taking fish from closed waters your a poacher! but not punching your card how is that poaching? your not taking more than you should , your just abstaining from telling the fish and game depo what you caught which is a violation but not poaching! Regardless of whether you punch your card or not the fish and game department has this ridicules calculation it uses to estimate how many fish were caught It always looks heavy to me. they use information from fish checkers. how the hell do you think they do mid season qoutas! It certainly isnt from your punch card now is it! I am sick and tired of petty bickering between sportfishermen dont you think If we were one big happy family we would have alot more say in what goes on. Just so you know (like its any of your bussiness) I punch my card so I can keep track of the fish I catch! TOO PUNCH OR NOT TO PUNCH? Either way the numbers are inflated!

let me tell you guys a story about micropertus 101 and his fishin practices, just playin

hey rockfish arent you up to early?

My game.