If people only knew!

A lot of you sit here and complain how "terrible" snagging is, and that WDFW should ticket everybody for even thinking about doing it, and It's not sporting like to snag or attempt to snag fish, etc, etc, etc. You also say; "take away their car, their boat, fishing rod and everything else that is even near them when they are attempting to snag fish". Why? Is snagging really "that bad"? Didn't WDF support snagging 30 years ago?

How many of you have ever taken the time to really look into the history of "snagging" in our state? Thirty years ago, WDFW didn't even care if you caught your fish from the backend or from the front end, or for that matter, either side! Now, WDFW wants us to believe that "snagging" a deadly sin… what hypocrisy!

Isn't it a method that can be used to remove excess hatchery fish at terminal fishing areas? Thirty years ago; I bet that you didn't even know…no I know that you didn't even known; that WDF was doing it's best to promote a snag fishery at the Cowlitz Hatchery.

The only reason it was never developed was that there was no "money" available at the time, and they (WDF) couldn't talk Tacoma into paying for developing it. Tacoma didn't want WDF to sell all the "excess" salmon; they (Tacoma's Board of Directors) wanted to sell them all for themselves and keep all the money from the sells.

Tacoma had their legal staff produce a legal opinion for the board to see if they could indeed sell the excess fish. Luckily, their attorneys realized that the "fish" were actually the property of the State, and that Tacoma would most likely loose in the courts if they attempted to sell the states fish.

Here's a little history from the Washington Department of Fisheries (WDF) for this board to read: It comes from a "MEMORAMDUM" that was addressed to: Management and Research, Hatcheries, and it was dated January 29, 1970.

"Snagging - Rearing Pond Development"

"The development of a multiple use pond at the Cowlitz Hatchery site was discussed in detail at this meeting. The pond could effectively and conveniently serve as a jack snagging pond and as a rearing -release pond for the hatchery. Nearly 70,000 chinook and coho jacks passed through the hatchery fish facilities in 1969. This was twice the contribution realized from the first Washougal "snagging season". It is estimated that the total jack return in 1970 will approach 60,000 fish.

Within a few years, the annual Cowlitz Hatchery mitigation production obligation will be clear. Enhancement beyond stable annual production is of little interest to the City; however, the development of supplement rearing-release ponds could potentially increase the station production to a level approaching one million pounds annually. Two sites exist adjacent to the hatchery that could develop for rearing of salmon. The capital cost of the development would only be fractional by comparison to that of a complete station.

Those attending the meeting were in unanimous agreement that the development of the rearing ponds should be seriously considered. The Cowlitz staff and the development of a package for presentation to Administration. It was also felt that the legal staff should be consulted regarding the contractual commitments of the project."

Well, Tacoma didn't buy it, so it fell through! That's the only reason why there was not a legal snag fishery developed on the Cowlitz…it was all about money!

Just one more piece of history for you guys to remember.

As far as snagging itself goes, I am neither for it, nor am I against it. To me personally, Its just another way that some people do their fishing.

Cowlitzfisherman

Micropterus,

Do you usually throw sticks at every hornet's nest you see, also? You stirred up a good one with this topic. So what is snagging? Plainly put, it's one method of reducing a fish in the stream to a fish in possession. It happens to be illegal in WA state, but it wasn't always so, for salmon that is.

Fish are reduced to possession in a lot of ways. Gillnets, purse seines, fish wheels, reef nets, dip nets, long lines, and trolling lines are common, or once common commercial and subsistence fishing methods. I never saw it, but have often enough heard of farmers and others using pitchforks to gaff salmon and load onto wagons to haul to their fields as fertilizer. Most recreational fisheries have for many decades been limited to using a hook and line, and require the fish to be hooked in the mouth to indicate a "fair" catch. And some fish are snagged in a fin or elsewhere on their body, either accidently or deliberately. Those fish probably didn't feel any worse about their experience than any of the fish caught by the other methods.

Gsiegel,

Thanks for summarizing snagging as a societal/cultural problem. However, it looks like it's a problem for some people, but not others. Obviously, some see snagging as a positive opportunity. Sorry to be so picky, but I think snagging might be more accurately labled a cultural issue than a problem, and I'll get to that later in this post.

Fun5Acres,

You said "It's all about money, nothing else." I'd like to know how you know that. I'm pretty well acquainted with many folks over at WDFW, and I can get a lot of reasons from them as to why there are lots of surplus fish stacking up below hatcheries, which tends to facilitate snag fisheries. But money isn't on the list of reasons. What do you know that they don't or won't tell me?

RA3,

I like you on this BB, and I think I'd like you in person, but you're so predictable in your willingness to rush to judge those who don't share your values. Clearly, you have values, and they're pretty high ones regarding our fishery resources. And I think that's pretty good of you. But how can you know that anyone whose behavior is characterized by lessor values than yours is a lowlife? I sometimes wish I was so sure of my self. You know that ". . . snagging is wrong, period!" What does that mean? Is everything you don't agree with " . . . wrong, period!"? Ya' know, a dead fish is a dead fish is a dead fish, no matter how morally it was caught.

CFM presented an interesting perspective that I think gets closer to the heart of the snagging issue. He seems simply to acknowledge that not everyone who fishes subscribes to the same values regarding fishing.

Fishing has its roots in food procurement. At that level, any means of obtaining the fish would be ethical and unlikely to violate a society's or cultural values. Sport means different things to different people, and I think that's why some of the "lowlifes" that RA3 referred to can have a pretty good time, a sporting one, if you will, by going out to the local snag fishery and harvesting a few. Others, and that seems to include most of the regulars here, either were raised in or otherwise acquired values for a "sporting tradition" that has roots in a structured concept. The sporting ethic that most, but not everyone, shares has a lot of tradition in its roots that usually includes a reverence for the resource we pursue and a concept or rules of fair chase - which would be the fishing regulations for most of us. The sporting ethic or tradition that I identify with has its roots in England and western Europe, where a lot of our common laws and cultural attributes are from.

I think a lot of the conflict in a discussion of snagging stems from an assumption of a common definition of what is sporting and that we share the same values. Here are a couple examples that are a bit extreme, but should help illustrate my point. A couple years ago a lot of scarce, or even rare, spring chinook were gaffed or snagged from the Nooksack River. RA3 might rush to label the perpetrators as lowlifes (sorry RA3, flame me if you must), but it turns out they were Russian immigrants who saw the fish as a food source, probably not much differently than people in primitive societies would have, which happens to be a pretty common value accorded to fishing in many places in Russia. They just don't share the same value, and may have been ignorant of the law. Nonetheless, they most likely have no idea of the sporting ethic and tradition that many of us share.

Another example is about crabbing in north Puget Sound by SE Asians. I should apologize for picking on ethnic groups, as the examples are more extreme, but I think they better illustrate the point. In this instance, some of these folks have been busted repeatedly for keeping crabs of all sizes and sexes. So they have been informed of the law, but it is so much in conflict with the values of their culture where it only makes sense to keep all the crabs that you can use.

My point, if I have one, is that we cannot assume that everyone shares the same values. It goes beyond valuing the sporting ethic, and includes valuing respect for the law. I think it's pointless to judge and condemn those who choose to snag. It makes more sense to inform and educate those who are receptive to it . . . and issue citations to those who aren't, because those are the regulations. And the regulations make sense over all, but that's another thread.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo,
You da man. Love yer style!

Sincerely,
Roger

LETS CUT THROUGH THE CRAP!!!! The purist figures the more tickets issued fore snagging the less fishermen on the river, makes more room for those QUESTIONABLE hook setting they do when few people are around.

I have seen these fishing "watchdogs" yell at children for putting a hook in front of a all but dead chum, then keep a questionable hooked fish themselves. PLEASE, just mind your own business, get a life!!!!

I will state again, i do not support blatent snagging, not as a moral issue, but as a legal one.

chumster

CF you state that your not for nor against snagging! I now this may be hard for you to do, but if you could pry yourself away from the computer for a day and go see what goes on during salmon season you would change your views! And if you would"nt there is something seriously wrong with you. For example I fished the east fork of the satsop this fall and I was so disgusted with what I saw it took all my power to hold my temper and not end up in jail. 2 guys were snagging all day the kings, they proceeded to drag up the bank god forbid they try to squirm away or else they would end up with a boot to the side.
After holding the fish out of the water for a couple minutes so they could take pictures of the fish they "caught", they decided that this was a keeper and proceeded to wrap a rope through the gills, I took it upon myself to let these clowns know that it is closed for kings. (Oh we didnt now) they said what gets me is the guys fishing next to them would"nt say a word. My question to you is would you say something? or are you "not against snagging". No I am not a game warden just a sportsman who cares!

snucking ***gers

Excellent post SALMO! What you did is called thinking before posting.

Hard to tell a snagged Salmon from gill netted one, once it is cooked. Especially if its a bunch of hungry kids that only care that it's food. I have stated before that some systems can support a snag legal fishery. If we open up those systems that allow thousands of lockjawed hatchery fish to rot, that would help provide lots of protein to needy family's. That will allow for better management of both the environment and the fishery of some streams. A good example would be the Quillcene(Killscene) River. If it had a small window for a snag legal fishery and then closed, the river, property owners, and fish would benefit greatly. This could free up Officer's for areas that really need protecting, where runs are threaten.

There are snag legal fisheries in Canada as well as Alaska that get raved reviews by the locals. Something to think about. <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

Salmo, you are da man! Very well thought out post! I for one try to control my acts and the people around me, thats it. If I can educate an open mind, right on! If not F-em'. People will do and act as they are.

Indeed, an excellent summary of the whole issue by Salmo; and great points made by Hookum.

This was a pretty good discussion; I think this type of discourse is important even though there is no obvious resolution. Thanks!

With all of the other issues as far as our anadromous fish are concerned this is not one I'd carry a banner for either way, really. If you're concerned about the welfare of salmon busting a few snaggers' chops seems like pretty small potatoes in the long run.

Salmo g.
______________________________________
Fun5Acres,

You said "It's all about money, nothing else." I'd like to know how you know that. I'm pretty well acquainted with many folks over at WDFW, and I can get a lot of reasons from them as to why there are lots of surplus fish stacking up below hatcheries, which tends to facilitate snag fisheries. But money isn't on the list of reasons. What do you know that they don't or won't tell ?

_____________________________________

Well, it's one of those common sense (dare I use the phrase?) issues. Picture this, please.

The limit of fish is four salmon in a two-mile (my approximation) stretch of water and there exists a "special regs" rule (barbless hooks, baitless, to protect the chum) and the hatchery is plugged, and LEGAL gear includes lead at the hook (but not directly attached), and the river is no bigger than the Cedar or Wind, is it even remotely reasonable to think that anyone can limit out by enticing fish to bite? Keep in mind that the entire length of river is lined with both fish and fisherman and the Natives are filling their coolers with treble hooked fish. (Not an exaggeration....not a judgment, just trying to paint a picture)

Now......you tell me why a warden would bother writing a ticket? To protect the fish? To enhance the fishery? Perhaps a power-trip?

I believe none of the above.....I saw one unknowing unfortunate novice receive a $650 ticket for killing a snagged dark coho. The guy really didn't have a clue. He had killed one previously...."fair hooked", so to speak. All the while, an under cover warden fished along side this fella. If it's not about the money, please do tell me what was/is to be gained by writing this oaf a monstrous ticket? The only answer that seems to make sense to me is the Green God.....Money.

Just a side note to set it straight.....I filled a punch card and a half off that river....all legally hooked with legal gear without any reefing my hook through the water or with my lead even remotely close to the hook. All the fish I kept were bright, healthy coho.....many with lice still attached. And only one of all those fish was hooked inside the mouth. Who's kidding who? I'm a very accomplished fisherman, and I know that there was next to NO chance of drawing a strike at any time.

Now perhaps some of you fine folks would have left to fish somewhere else, but I just kept my smoker going for a month or so and ate fresh salmon every way imaginable. Shared it with my neighbors and co-workers and enjoyed myself immensely. I have fished here in Washington for over 40 years, and I can say that I have not seen fishing like that since day one.

You want to stand in judgment? Feel Free....I'll sit here and read and eat my smoked fish. Regards

I'm with you B-Money...make a polite comment and if it gets through, great. If not, then nothing I can do or say will convince them otherwise.

this thread actually reminded me of an episonde earlier in the fall. Granted, I'm no pro and am eternally grateful I found this board and started reading the posts with zeal...here's why:

A friend of mine took my novice self down to the local river. We were having a great morning -not catching- but fun nevertheless. So after a couple hours go by, some of my friends family showed up. Here's where it gets interesting...I moved off the river to let them fish and a guy next to them goes and gives them some tips

1. cast out into the water-all the way across if you can make it
2. let your offering sink a little
3. every few seconds or so...give it a rip, while continuing to reel in. (they were fishing with corkies, not spinners)

Now, his explanation of the technique went like this - "When the fish see that darting through the river - they will attack it!"

Like I stated earlier...I am eternally grateful for coming across this board and learning from all of you first - otherwise, I would have ended up believing that guy like my friends family (I did tell them later that his "technique" was nothing less than snagging and that was against the law).

guess some people have to go home with fish each time out...kinda sad but in the end their loss.