It has been my experience (and is my belief) that a properly sized (maximum gap tween hook point-n-shank) (?combined w/a minimum size?), single, barbless hook on an artificial lure will cause the least amount of "hooking mortality". It appears that the article in CWU's post tends to support my belief. I was wrong once so I suppose it could happen again...
Anyway, does anyone know of any studies done on hooking mortality from circle hooks? It is my understanding that because of their design they tend to lodge in the fishes mouth in areas least likely to be fatal. Anyone ever use circle hooks for Salmon, Trout or Steelhead?

Quick Q fer minibear: How does anyone become good at anything (driftfishing fer steelhead, fer instance) w/out first being a novice?

Sincerely,
Roger

Circle hook study... http://www.ccact.org/Articles/circle_hook_study.htm

single barbless hooks, barbless hooks kill as many as barbed hooks trying to grip the small fish with a barbed hook is bad where a barbless hook it just falls off into the water with minimal effort.

Cow--- if you carefully read my post you will see I said itty-bitty flies "USUALLY" are fished in lakes and springcreeks. Most steelhead flies are on the large size. You find one person who agrees with you[now] and you hold him up as a free thinker and those that have different points of view are a click. Sometimes those that agree with a majority point of view have thought very hard about a situation and have come to a common view point independently of each other. And I'm about as real as they come.

[Quick Q fer minibear: How does anyone become good at anything (driftfishing fer steelhead, fer instance) w/out first being a novice?

Sincerely,
Roger [/QB][/QUOTE]

I understand that there are alot of novices out there, after your first handful of steelhead landed while baitfishing if you pay attention you can tell the difference. I wish you could've understood my point a little better, with all the novice steelheaders out there that have to kill numerous smolts before they actually catch their first steelhead and (believe me steelheading is becoming everybodys favorite past time) I am sure a later opener is what it will come down to.

WOW!! That was fast...Thanx CWUgrrrl.

Guess I should try out a few search engines...

Minibear,
Hey, sorry, was not bein judgemental, just did not understand...without novices the sport would die out!!

Probably the only way to save our wild fish runs is a complete ban on fishing fer ten years or so. Unfortunately, most people find that as unpalatable as I do.

Anyone have any experience using circle hooks? Seems like they would be a good way to go IF they hooked fish as well as our beloved Octopus style.

I really enjoy the exchanges in this thread, some very good thoughts.

I also get alot of laughs from the people who get "spun-up" so fast!!

Take care n Keep the Faith

Sincerely,
Roger

CF -

Yeah...I'm sure its obvious to everyone reading this board that I am the one that's high...do you think its my inability to frame a logical argument or the meandering character assasinations that give it away?

Instead of finding fault with my logic or my arguments (or anyone who disagrees with you for that matter) you have mischaracterized what I've said on this subject and refused to address the parts of my argument that are worthy of consideration, if nothing else. You've resorted to name calling on me and character assasination (attempted!) on Todd....

...and I'm the one who is exhibiting the behavior of someone feeling threatened?...

Sparkey -

Its unfortunate that the attention of this thread has been diverted and I apologize for whatever part I may have played in that, both to you and the rest of the board.

Anyway....what's the worst that could happen if you err on the side of the fish...more fish?

Jerry: "You find one person who agrees with you [now] and you hold him up as a free thinker and those that have different points of view are a click."

Like I said earlier Jerry; "Some of you just can't stand to deal with any other person's points of view, and that's also too bad..."

Once again, you guys need to open up your minds . . . not your mouth!"

Ok Jerry, if you think you can sell us your same old story that; "Most steelhead flies are on the large size", then please, old wise one, what about your flies that you guys use on the cutthroat? Are they that large too. . . I don't think so!

And lastly, you go on to say; "Sometimes those that agree with a majority point of view have thought very hard about a situation and have come to a common view point independently of each other." Well Jerry, that's what happened right now to your little click, isn't it?

Roger (RRR)

I had used circle hooks long before they had ever become known in our Washington fishery.

I came from California, I used to fish commercially there, and I used circle hooks a lot. They are, in my opinion, fish killers in many ways, barb less or not! Why do you think that the "Orientals" invented them in the first place? Have you ever used them? I don't care if they were barb less or not once a fish gets hooked, he can't readily get off as easy or get ride of it (the hook). That means, on smaller hooks, it even gets harder. Again, have you ever used them; if so, where, and on what species?



Cowlitzfisherman

stlhdh2o, mellow out a little, you're beginning to loose it!

Everyone gets beat up a little now and then, I know how to lick my wounds, and you need to learn how to do it too!


Cowlitzfisherman

WOW!! Who "Sparked" this thread?

A few fly fishing clubs successfully lobbied to place selective gear rules on the Snoqualmie in the summer. So, there must have been some science to it or else it was as an experiment or a little of both. The rules still apply after, what, ten years?
The results must be successful right? Does anyone know of a published study showing that the return rate is much higher than the Sky? If it's successful then why don't they apply the rules to the entire state?

WOW!!!

I had a few chances during the day to peak at this thread at workd...I wish I would have had the opputunity to make a couple posts to keep this thread on track...

As Brian L. mentioned, this thread has nothing to do with fly vs. gear...whoever it was that brought that up, is being seriously ignorant of the issues at hand.

Secondly, I am in no way giving up on the wild winter run, yet. The past few years have been dreadful for Puget Sound wild steelhead...these ideas are based upon the recent years and the predictions for this year.

A prominent biologist/manager with the WDFW (you know who you are ) made a comment within the past couple weeks that if closing down the C&R seasons and the now mandatory wild steelhead release regulations are not followed by a rebound in our wild steelhead escapements in Puget Sound, more drastic measures will need to be taken!!!!!

I am assuming those drastic measures will involve a complete shut down of our fisheries in the winter...do you want that??...I dont think so...I sure as Hell dont!!

So now we are at a crossroads...we need to take more drastic steps to help prevent the most drastic step of all will not need to be taken.

What the Hell is wrong with not fishing with bait in the summer??...there is an obvious mortality rate differance between bait and no bait and barbed hooks and barbless hooks...anyone who disagrees with that are not ignorant, they are not naive...they are MORONS! Wake up!!!!!!

There has been little disagreement over keeping the river closed over an extended period of time...so we do agree that that is a measure that should be taken if need be??....or how about a compromise? (using the Skykomish as an example), keep the standard June 1st opening but make it single barbless hooks and no bait...usually the river is faily high at that time...by elimanting the use of bait, you are going to eliminate the catch of wild winter steelhead.

I am not proposing this compromise as a permanent nor am I proposing that the late opener become a standard regulation...

I just feel that if we are closing the rivers in March and April to protect wild winter steelhead (rivers that are under selective fishery regs at the time when open) and then allowing a gauntlet of fisherman (non-selective fishery) have at them for a couple weeks in June, we are not protecting the population...in fact the regulations of the first couple weeks of June directly contradict the closures of March and April.

...sacrifice some now OR everything later...

Sparky, I agree if it can be shown in actual returns. There's a prime example/study opportunity right now in the Snoqualmie. If it can be shown then it shouldn't be temporary it should be permanent and should be expanded to the entire state. But, I am willing to bet that even with the selective gear rules enforced in the summer that the returns have not drastically improved. So, that would say that the problem lies elsewhere and not hook mortality. I really don't have a problem with going to no bait or even fly fishing. Whatever improves the returns of fish then I am for.
Can you imagine the hatchery meat holes being fly fishing only? I think that would be more fun to watch than actually fishing.

Sparks.. I go to the trouble of abusing my employment to agree with you and providing evidence (against my better judgement), and I don't get any props?? What's with that??

stlhead-
I am not saying selective fishery regulations will actually boost numbers of returning fish enough that we can pinpoint that rebound to those regulations...

What I am trying to say is that at this point with escapement numbers as low as they are, these populations need all the help they can get and selective fishery regulations WILL GIVE THEM THAT SORT OF HELP!

you know I love you!...is that not enough??

Stlhead -
Regarding the regulations on the Snoqualmie - Those changes were put in place in an attempt to rebuilt the wild summer steelhead returning to the forks of the Tolt. Duirng the late 1980s the average escapement of summer steelhead in the South Fork Tolt was only 70 fish a year and never above 100 fish. The regulation changes: including ban baits, barbless hooks, closing of the the forks to fishing, stopping of hatchery plants of summer fish in the Tolt occurred in 1992. Over the last 10 years the average escapement has increased more than 2.5 fold to nearly 200 fish a year (range 115 to 366 per year). Obivously the combined regulations were effective. How much of that can be attributed to the bait ban of course is unknown.

TJ -
Yes it is early to decide the fate of this year's wild run. And the strength of hatchery returns are notorious poor predictor of wild runs. However the escapement of wild steelhead last year on the Snohomish and Stillaguamish were the lowest that has been seen. That cpombined with the growing indication of widespread terrible marine survival makes this discussion timely.

Sparkey's ideas are a nice starting point. This coming summer the WDFW commission will be taking and considering major fishing regulation changes again making this timely.

Question for your consideration - If the worst comes to pass (I'm sure that we all agree that we are hoping for the better than that) would you prefer limitations on methods (for example bait bans) or shorter seasons?

Hooking mortality -
As pointed out by CWUgirl there is quite a bit of information available on hooking mortality. Especially for trout (applicable to steelhead parr and smolts) where mortaltiy of bait caught fish has been consistently found to be in the 30 to 50% range. When thinking about hooking mortality it is useful to divide your consideration on the fish being impacted. Hooking mortaltiy with bait on adult steelhead is generally lower than that for trout with values for winter fish typically pegged around 10%. For spawn-out steelhead (kelts) it is closer to that found for trout - they are actively feeding and the likehood of being hooking in critical areas about the same as trout (more than 30%).

Absolute mortality form hooking mortaltiy is difficult to pin down in studies - are fish dying from hooking mortality or from the handling as part of the study. However when various aspects are compared the same study we can see how various gear etc comapres to each other (may not know what the mortlatiy maybe but we can see whether one is twice the other). A local study that may be useful here is one done by U of W and WDFW on sea-run cutthroat on the Stillaguamish where mortality from various size hooks and arificals. Bottom line:
Mortality with bait and # 10 hooks was 39.5%
with bait and #6 hooks was 46.5%
with bait and #2 hooks was 58.1%
with bait and #1/0 hooks was 40.7%
with spinner with teble hook - 23.8%
with spinner with single hook - 15.9%

The bait was night crawlers. The spinners were #2 Blue Fox etc with either #4 treble or # 6 siwash.

Another thing to remember is that during the summer there is a lot of fishing going on that is not targeting steelhead.

Beezer -
Does your concern about a delayed opening impacts on the Sky hatchery chinook fishery reflect that of your TU chapter.

I hope it doesn't mean that TU in WAshington is continuing to place access to hatchery fish above wild fish protection.

Hope some of this information is helpful in your discussions - hopefully we can find ways of protecting a wild resource in trouble while providing recreation.

How to best do this of course depends on our collective desires. The best chance to do so depends on putting emotions aside, collecting factual information, and examining the issue from a variety of view points. My observations are that those involved in this discussion have the passion and talent to do so if we are willing to look issues objectively.

Tight lines
Smalma

Smalma-
Thanks for posting the results to that study!!...that was my introduction to that study...do you have title and authors so I can go take a peak at??

Secondly, do you have any figures or any idea on how many smolts, parr etc. are caught each summer by anglers??...any any river system??

Because state law requires the WDFW to undertake a study if a selective fishery regulation is to be put in place by WDFW staff, is there anything others and/or myself can do to lobby the WDFW to appropiate the funds for such a study?

...plus, if wild winter steelhead escapements are so low...why do you believe the WDFW opens up rivers such as the Sky on June 1 when there are still good numbers of both upstream and downstream wild winter steelhead in the system?

\


Response to (1)
I recieved that info from my friend vince green who worked with wdfw at the time that crap was going on. I will talk to him and get back to you on that.

Response to (2)
I know what the barbless hook rules were intended for and that intension was good. But the fact is that many people including myself now use bigger hooks with longer points, hence more skeward shakers. Another fact is that most people dont carefully release there catch.

Response to (3)
I still need to look at the mortality studies, but from what I read so far on other post those studies were conducted on trout. Thats a whole nother can o worms. Of couse the mortality rate of bait caught trout is going to be high, thats a no brainer. The higher mortality can be attibuted to still water baitfishing techniques. when fishing for steelhead I rarely have them swallow my eggs, usually I hook them in the corner of there mouth and other fish I see people catch are also hooked in the corner of the mouth. Of course there are exceptions but thats the exception not the rule other wise why would it be such a big deal when a steelhead does swallow someones eggs to there a!!.

Response two (4)
Yes I do think that using barbed hooks in saltwater will reduce the amout of fish skeward. I would rather use smaller hooks. Refer to (2)

Response to (5)
That would be easier for you if I was some kind of whacked conspiricy theorist wouldnt it.
No I am not an Art Bell wanna be. I base my opinions on a combonation of my experiences acquired knowledge and common sense and I try not to argue points I know absoulutly nothing about. If I do I let you know what department I am lacking In. I also like to find things out for myself I am not one to run with the crowd and take things at face value.

Theres alot of good people working for us In the wdfw That are stiffled for stating the obvious.

Response to (6)

Where the heck did I say there is no scientific basis for the regulations on barbed verses barbless hooks I simply said I have seen no studies. Just becuase I havent seen something does not mean it does not exist. I am not that full of myself. when I do see the studies I will form my own opinions based on what they say and what I know. There are many variables in any study and that should be taken into consieration before forming any opinions.

sorry sparky this vagely has to do with your topic.

If there is marked improvement and WDFW decides to go selective gear rules I would hope that it is in effect over the entire state and not just one system or area.
If it's decided that delaying the opener two weeks helps fish then it should be applied statewide also. If it helps fish it helps fish.
What I don't like to see is special restrictive rules on one system and none on another. I don't want to see from June 1 through June 14 everybody hammer the upper river. Or everybody hammer the nearest other system. I also don't want to see X river has good returns so you can use methods proven to increase mortality while on Y river with poor returns you must use methods that decrease mortality. If changing methods helps the fish it should be applied everywhere.