Well spark, I have come to the conclusion that you and I would probably never be friends based on a number of different things you have posted.

Like him or not, Tim Eyeman is brilliant. Like it or not the initiative process is the peoples only breath of fresh air in the political process. Like it or not Tim Eyeman has been the only one to make this process really work.

Do I agree with all the initiatives? Doesn't matter! Do I agree with the kickback he got? Doesn't matter! The initiative process is the only political tool that the normal guy has anymore.

I know you strive to be cool and accepted that is obvious. Just be aware that as wounded as our political and judicial systems seem to be I challenge you to find better systems in place anywhere in the world.

Sorry for the rant, but negative put downs of any person is uncalled for in my opinion.

Jim

I was listening to John Carlson yesterday. He had the guy who is starting this initiative on the radio. The guy was a total waste of time. He had nothing useful to contribute. He had no ideas worth the time of day. His "initiative" is nothing more than a sophmoric prank that should be ignored. What a waste when people are trying to accomplish real things on real issues. Agree with Eyeman or not, you should be able to be articulate in your opinions and bring something to the table. All this guy is bringing is personal insults and attacks. He thought the initiative process was flawed - and wants to make it even harder to get an initiative on the ballot. The guy is not worth typing any more words about.

Well said Jim

Right on Sparkey!! I am with you.

Negative put downs of any person is uncalled for? Tim Eyeman is not exactly a saint. He used money donated to his iniatives to pay himself and as a result as lost an extreme amount of credit with the citizens of Washington.

Our right to form initiatives is not universially accepted among political scientists and it's split among the states as to the citizens ability to get such intiatives on the ballot. The danger is that you get the Tim Eyeman's of the world that really do stand things on their heads and cause damage to the bureaucratic system. Should citizens have the right to vote on their own taxation? No, it is silly to think that citizens have the conscience to "do the right thing" and raise their own taxes.

That being said, I am a supporter of Tim Eyeman. His initiatives are neither good for our state nor are they particularly well reasoned or written. But, he has accomplished something that bureaucracy on it's own cannot. He managed to stand the state on it's head which allowed all that loose change hiding in it's pockets to come falling out. Obviously the state hasn't collasped. Our tax dollars have just been cut from much of the fluff. (Keep in mind, one man's fluff is another's bread). We did/do have good reason to distrust our state's ability to budget money and responsibly for the benefit of the people. His initiatives are absolutely essential with our current governorship in order to provide the citizens with a tool for real checks and balances.

That horse's ass sure is entertaining!

I agree with MIKE C. I was listening to JOHN CARLSON and agree the guy was a waste of time. although i could be wrong i believe most people agree with and hope TIM EYEMAN keeps trying.

Good post Sparkey We have one of those same type of guys down here in Oregon. His name is Bill Sizemore

"Should citizens have the right to vote on their own taxation? No, it is silly to think that citizens have the conscience to "do the right thing" and raise their own taxes."


CWU, as an alumni from the school you are attending and someone who has enjoyed your posts. Your above quote leaves me concerned, because if I take this literally then it says that we should rely on the intelligence of politicians to control our taxes because we the people aren't smart enough to do the right thing. We the people elect these politicians and these politicians are people. Do you sense an out of control spiral???

Plus if Political Scientists agreed on everything there wouldn't be "Scientist" after their name.

Tim Eyeman did lose alot of respect just when I had written him to help us get a net initiative that would work. DANG!

Jim

well said JIM B!!! I'm with you.

Just a question...... What does this subject have to do with fishing?????

Right on Big-Daddy! I enjoy reading about fishing related subjects on this web site. I do not feel that this is a soap box for political issues that don't relate to fishing!!!!!!

I have noticed one thing on this board we as sportsmen have different views of the same water…

JimB… you are right the initiative process is a breath of fresh air in the political process.

How many of us, as individuals or as a group/club, have asked our state representatives to do or look into changing something for us only to be brushed aside or given some political lecture about we don't see the big picture.

CWUgirl… should we really care what political scientists accept? It is the legal process and it does allow us a voice into the political process. Do you know that before the initiative process was put into place or opened up for us to use, it was virtually impossible for an individual or group/club to enact change within the state political beast.

CWUgirl… you also must believe that the citizens wouldn't do the right thing, because of your statement “Should citizens have the right to vote on their own taxation?” and my answer would be a resounding YES! I have the conscience and hope for the good of the generations that follow, that WE the citizens of Washington and the United States have the “conscience to “do the right thing””! I have seen and believe that we would see more support for tax increase if we felt that we were getting the service and a truthful accounting of how our current tax dollars were being spent.

Tim Eyeman in my opinion is just showing the State Representatives and Governor that “We the people” want more responsibility with our tax dollars! He has used the current legally defined process “for the people” to let the people have a voice since the Representatives are not and have not listened to those they represent!

I know to some the view of fiscal responsibility (big picture) may appear different, but it is really the same as individual fiscal responsibility. It is simple…

I/State have set income.
I/State have set payment responsibilities.
I/State have to live within the set income.

I can't decide on my own that I want to spend more therefore TELL my employer that they must pay me more just because I want to spend more than my set income. That would be extortion!

We all must live within our means! Take care of our RESPONSIBILITIES (as defined by the Constitution, both national and state), before we spend on luxuries.

Oooops, I didn't see that I step onto the Soap Box… but that is MY 2 cents.

P.S. Big Daddy Eyed Egg … it has everything to do with fishing. I for one pay taxes and licensing fees that are to be used to pay for the WDFW. But the State/Governor can take those collected dollars and then cut the services to use the fund elsewhere. Also, the State doesn't use the funds wisely. Example: What was the reason for buying the DFW guys new trucks? Well from a Supervisor of the State Motor Pool, I was told it was because someone in the DFW wanted Cheve Trucks and that they were getting closed to the mandatory replacement age of the vehicles. I don't know about you but within my household I can't just go buy a new rig because the “old” one is more than 5 years old or because the newer truck looks better!

Fiscal resposibility!!!

Tight Lines and Shoot Straight

Anybody who supports Tim Eyman can fish with me anytime, I just don't want to hear then complain about any loss of services, where our license fees are going, etc. Good job at rallying people, poor thought process.

Initiatives should need to pass an economic impact statement, something that will be put into law this year. Basically what that means is that if the people vote for higher teachers pay, they need to provide a method of funding, ie. higher taxes somewhere.

The funds from license tabs funded many things other than just road programs and transportation.

If you supported Eyman, you have no room to complain.

BTW, This is one intiative I will vote for.

Andy

Whoa, CWUGirl

Should citizens have the right to vote on their own taxation? No, it is silly to think that citizens have the conscience to "do the right thing" and raise their own taxes.
_____________________________________

I'm staggered by that statement. It flat scares the Hell out of me. Please don't tell me that you think politicians are better than "common folk".

It has been my observation that the silent majority have a very solid comprehension of what is worthwhile and what is not. And since most believe that a good life is one spent with family and friends, they are not interested in playing the political game whatsoever. Unfortunately, as a result, the people who do end up in the arena all too often are those obsessed with "making a difference" (with the unsaid statement, "with my name on it")

This country was founded by Outlaws....think about it. It has been kept great by those daring to buck the system.

but then again, it is a waste of time trying to make a sheep into a goat.

WHOA!!!!....I first saw mention of this filed initiative on the news and then I visited the aforementioned website.

I did not post the link to stary any sort of arguement...I just found it all incrediblly funny and thought many of you would get a kick out of it like I did.

Oh well...once again an attempt at humor by myself fell short.

Right on ,Anty M & WaBow
We need more people like Tim Eyeman in this state to hold the elected people and the huge state bureaucarcy accountable.The tax and spend attitude of Olympia needs to change.

OK guys I have one for you. I was sitting at home playing the Xbox the other night and came up with one hell of an idea. Since Tim is into inititaves or however you spell it. I thought Hey wait a minute. Why not see if he or someone like him would sponser something to put on the ballot to make it C-N-R for all wild steelhead. I talked with Bob about it and he thought it was a great idea. The only thing is it is going to take lots of money and support to get it there. I have spent hours online and if anyone wants to give a hand let me know. I think Eyman is a Class Act for what he has done. The votes say so also. The state just needs to pull there head out of their arse and figure it out and quite wasting so much money. Like the 560 million that license fees generate. I know it doesn't all go back into the fisheries. Another Buacracy with to many chiefs and not enough ______! Shoot me some emails and lets see what we the TAX PAYERS can do to make this a World Class Steelhead Fishery here in the State of Washington. I finally remembered BOB!

Great post, sure got a lot of conversations started.

I think the guy, David Goldstein, that started the Horse Ass initiative is the Real Ass and wasting tax payer money. Tim doesn't have everyone on is side but it sure is nice to see that if someone wants, they can make a difference.

I like the idea of getting Tim or someone to get and initiative for CNR or how about reversing that darn Boldt decison.

Last comment is to those that don't want to see these non-fishing posts. I think this is actually a fishing topic post because it could get a CNR initiative topic started. If you don't want to read the don't, go fishing instead.

Hey Spark.. ler I just heard a rumor that Tim Eyman thinks you are just as big a horses A%$

Sorry guys, but I need to ask this...

How many of you are Clinton supportors? I would like to compare the people that say they support Clinton to those who support Eyeman.

After the Clinton sex scandal, people who still stood with him amazed me... They reminded me of those guys that follow their leader to the death, even though he is not pure at heart, has no real visualization for a future, and doesnt even have a care for them unless they have money for him.

People make mistakes, and thats understandable. I'm not saying all people who make mistakes should go to hell, not at all. But these are things that you can restrain from.

Now to Eyeman. He is the one who pointed out that Senators are using our money to travel and play golf. He is complaining that they have no right to do this, that they are wasting valuable state assets. He says this AFTER he makes a confession that hes been using supporters money for personal use.

Now tell me... How many of you DO support these hypocrits? I wont go as far as saying horses ass, but come on people, if those are the people you support, how can you even say whats good and bad for this country, this state, your county, or your city?

Curtis

CWUgirl,
I'd have to disagree with you about the "conscience" statement. I know of several ballot levies I and many others have voted for in the past - school levies, 911 levies, library levies to name a few. So I do believe that voters will do the right thing when they know the money is going to be used for the right something worthwhile and needed. Lets keep it to angling - I would guess that most of us on this board would gladly pay our yearly fishing license knowing it would go toward fishing. But since it doesn't and instead it's wasted on so many pork barrel projects, most of us are very iritated instead. On the WL.com board it was brought up that a "trout stamp" might be a good idea to promote and improve trout lakes. And if that's where the money went it would be a good idea. But we all know that the money gets sloshed into the general fund to pay for someone's office upgrade.
My point is, I think people are willing to pay when they know the money is going to be used wisely and fairly.

Poor sparkey


Some of us still love ya though!!! Keep on truckin DUDE!!!!

Voting for or against an intitiative has nothing to do with supporting the horses ass that wrote it. Some intitives makes sense and others don't. Who wrote them really isn't what I care about.

Dogfish, I agree with the funding/economic impact idea and would add that we need to have the constitutionality issues out of the way BEFORE we vote on this stuff. What's the point of approving an initiative just to have state's judges overturn it on legal appeals filed by/on behalf the state? Similar to the funding issue, why vote on it if we can't afford it?

IMO, this is the real problem with intitiatves, not who wrote them. The state needs to exclude any initiative from the ballot that does not pass the litmus test of consitutionality and funding FIRST. Quit wasting my time already!!! Maybe then, when one IS passed, the chant of "APPEAL, APPEAL" won't be the only soundbite heard on the local propaganda machine's stories the next day.

Maybe the soundbite will be, "...the people have spoken, as your leaders we respect that voice, as we are here to represent you the people". At least that's the way I was taught it was supposed to be.

Or should we throw in the towel, lower the bar some more and just go socialist? NEVER! Don't tread on me - socialist!

Mike C, I picked out your post to respond to because in disagreeing with me, you have made my point in a way. I should start out by saying, I am a political scientist. (big surprise)

Your last line "I think people are willing to pay when they know the money is going to be used wisely and fairly," is my point. We live with a complex bureaucracy, that judgement call is impossible. We are fundamentally distrustful of politicians and encounter slow and ineffective bureaucracies almost on a daily basis that scream "YOUR MONEY IS NOT BEING USED EFFECTIVELY."

The basis for the people's lack of zeal for taxation is that people vote with their wallet in mind. Do any candidates run under the banner "I AM FOR RAISING TAXES!"? No, it would not be a wise decision in any campaign. It's naive to believe that citizens will vote to raise taxes, lets say, to go to the general fund. Since you can't apply your test- knowledge of wisely spent dollars- what are the people going to do? They are going to look at the bureaucrats and politicans in disgust and vote that sucker down!

It is the job of our representative government to make the tough decisions- taxation is not a popular issue. Take the proposed gas tax hike that Gov. Gary Locke was pushing last year. It went down in dramatic fashion in the legislature when the benefit to the people couldn't be proven. The cowards sent it to a vote so it could be defeated easily because they were too afraid to make the call that there might be a need for increasing taxes. (No, I don't think Locke's plan was sound, we already have the highest gas tax in the country).

I might have some faith in representative democracy, but as I said in my last paragraph of my original post, Tim Eyeman is aboslutely necessary in the State of Washington. I won't say our State suffers from incompetent leadership, but it has suffered through years of neglect and politicans who instead of making tough calls, chose to save their necks.

Be thankful guys, if you lived in some other states, you wouldn't have any right to get initiatives on the ballot at all.

Some candidates for the Horse's Ass of the Year Award:

Gary Locke
Patty Murray
Jim McDermott
Ron Simms

If you voted for any of the above...well you know.........

Sparky sparked another one !

I agree with jim except for the part about getting down on Sparky.
Tim eymann broke no laws taking that money! The government sensationalized the incident because of there distain for the guy. All the time he puts in has got to be worth something, dont you think?

As far as people not ever voting for a tax, it has already happened since the initiatives.

This state just has to show what the money is going to be spent on and show how.
If the people want it the people will vote for it.

This state does not want to stop there pet programs we dont want, so they are
taking money away from things we do want. So they can get us to vote for taxes they want.

That is an extremely idealistic view of electoral politics. Unfortunately, reality has people abiding by what helps their pocket book rather than what will keep state government running.

Aside from the sheer impossiblity of implimentation of Eyeman's vote for taxation policy plan, think of the time and money that would be wasted during campaigns for taxation changes. Are we just going to halt government so the people, who for the most part are uninformed on initiatives (or politics in general), can vote on taxes? We have a legislature, let them do their job.

CWUgirl,
Since you chose to respond to my post, I will point out to you that in your response you totally ignored my point about people voting to raise their taxes all the time - via levies for libraries, 911, schools, etc.
You state that it is impossible for the individual to make decisions on spending issues because our state government is too complex? I patently reject that arguement as one of giving in to Big Brother. Individuals are perfectly capable of making decisions as to where our money should be spent. I find your arguement very condensending.

Using your line of logic, since I'm a nurse, when you come in for health care you should have 100% trust in what I or your doctor tell you. Don't bother to learn anything yourself because we are the "experts". And your body is much too complicated for you to understand, right? I mean we go to higher education for years to learn about how it works. So just take this pill, relax, and we'll see you for surgery in the morning...

No thanks, I prefer to think for myself.

Those taxes are trival and mainly at the local level... my arguement is at the state level.

I didn't say it's impossible for the individual to make decisions because government is too complex. Here's what I said:

Your last line "I think people are willing to pay when they know the money is going to be used wisely and fairly," is my point. We live with a complex bureaucracy, that judgement call is impossible. We are fundamentally distrustful of politicians and encounter slow and ineffective bureaucracies almost on a daily basis that scream "YOUR MONEY IS NOT BEING USED EFFECTIVELY."

My point was that we are confronted everyday with bureaucracy and news stories about the failings of state government. How can we prove we need in increase in something like sales tax or anything else that goes directly to the general fund? You cannot apply your test- there is no way for anyone to decide if general fund dollars are going to be "wisely" used.

And my logic is not at all condesending. It's practical.

Please read my entire posts before judging me as an elitist... I haved stated Eyeman is absolutely necessary in WA repeatedly. He has changed our system....I'm not sure if it was for the better in all cases... and put politicans on notice that the electorate was going to have a little more say in the workings of the state.

Ok, enough with the crap about being accountable. If that is want he really wanted he would talk about things like mandatory audits by indepentent auditdors. THAT would make the state accountable for what it spends.

Cutting the amount of money the state has and making it harder for them to raise taxes when needed only mean they will continue to cut services. I mean what do expect Olympia to do when they don't have the money they need. Locke is not going to cut his pay and nether will the state reps.

We have to force the state to spend money the way it is supposed to be spent. And right now there is not nearly enough controls to ensure that.

Eyman is not helping this state at all.

And I am a home owner just in case any wants to know....

CWU,
Nice try at trivializing. What you don't know can hurt you. I have a double degree from CWU in Biology and Political Science. The difference between you and I is 20 years of paying taxes and seeing incredible waste as a State employee for WDFW. Now I will not argue with you because I know that arguing with only book smarts is to trivial. I say all of this knowing that I don't think we are to far apart. I am done with this thread other than the fact that I think all I said about Spark was that I didn't think we would be friends. Spark if I said more...please accept my apology.

Jim

Jim...

I work for a state bureaucracy!! My other major was public policy until I decided I couldn't deal with bureaucracy for the rest of my life.

Anyway, I see examples of waste every day at work. From throwing away new supplies b/c they are the wrong color (it is illegal to give away things like binders, etc, because they are state property)....to buying excessive numbers of laptops, computers, palm pilots, digital camcorders, cameras... for the most part just to spend the money the have with little regard to where that money came from.

Obviously I can't argue that I haven't had years of experience working for the state (and I never, ever will!!). But I base my opinions on what I do have in terms of experience and knowledge. As a result, I come out with well argued viewpoints that do challenge people to think about the issues.

CWU,
I didn't say you were elitist, I said you were condensending. Which you further confirmed by your statement that certain certain taxes are "trivial". How condensending is THAT? And your statement to "please read my entire post... etc." I did, and my judgement is you are very condensending on this topic.

I never met a trivial tax. Please send whatever amount of your income you think is trivial to Olympia. They will be happy to take it off your hands for you.

Mike C.... Nahhhh, I am just realistic. :p

Hey, 22 years olds are supposed to be optimistic! You haven't been paying taxes for 30 years yet.
I think this topic has run it's course. Time to put the kids to bed. Peace.