heck ya...i don't see much downside either...and i've never eaten a wild fish and never intend too....not with all the clipped guys around...

Salmo

I have to respectfully disagree with what you have said about the Cowlitz Coho.

You say that ;"While TPU hauled more than 70,000 adults to the upper basin, only about 4,000 were "wild", that is, adults that resulted from the fry plants two and a half years previous."

Question ; how do you know that those 4,000 adults were not "hatchery fish" that just didn't get fin clipped instead of being wild? What do you know that I don't know? Before you answer, remember, WDFW Cowlitz egg take goal (which they always meet) is about is 5,600,000. Yes, that's 5 million six hundred thousand! Do you really believe that WDFW marked all of those fish for that time period?

You have worked in hatcheries before, so please give us your "best guess" of how many of those 5,600,000 coho DIDN"T get fin clipped? When Tacoma's number 1 man was separating those 70,000 coho, which were shooting down that shut at eye blinking speed, do you really expect us to believe that he would be able to tell the difference between a partially clip adipose fin?

How can you say that (on the Cowlitz); "Those 4,000 wild spawners are more productive than the surplus hatchery fish that are trucked up there." What makes you believe that those 4,000 adults were not just unmarked hatchery fish? I have never seen any studies as of yet, that would support that statement about coho returns to the upper Cowlitz. Are you just using a standard "wild" coho formula as an example? There is a ton of unanswered question about this one!

You also say; "The 4,000 wild coho know from their juvenile rearing experience where the suitable habitat is, and they disperse and spawn where it will do the most good." This may indeed be true "IF" those 4,000 coho were indeed "wild" coho; but what if they were not?

Finally you said; "There are distinct benefits to having truly wild, or naturally produced, coho in the Cowlitz". Well, to some degree you are right, but probably not for the same reasons that you believe. What's really going to make the big difference of having "wild coho" in the upper Cowlitz in the years to come is this; we will once again have about a third of our coho runs coming back in September again!

Salmo, have you already forgotten that the Cowlitz originally and historically supported a fairly large number of the native "South" turning coho stock that originally returned in September above the dams?

WDFW had intentionally eliminated the entire early run of "S" turning Cowlitz coho shortly after the dams were built, so that they (WDFW) could enhance the Washington State Commercial Gill Net Fishery of the "N" retuning runs of coho in the Columbia River gill net fishery.

You, like me Salmo, are getting older and you must have just forgotten that one!

I have to admit Salmo, you are right on the money about the Columbia River gill net fishery! Can you please tell the board "why NMFS" can't understand "what you understand" about that gill net fishery? This board would love to hear the real scoop…if you can!

Cowlitzfisherman

It is clear to me that WDF&W is planting non clipped fish around the state to avoid ESA listings. " Martha look at all those wild fish "
Sports are buying into this crapola because they think they will get to harvest more fish in the future. You are paying for those fish and they are hatchery fish. I think if your planning on harvesting non clipped fish in the future you are new to NW fisheries issues. YOU should demand that all hatchery fish are clipped. They are your's. YOU are paying for them and not getting to keep them. Broodstock programs will be the end of your fishing if they are not clipped.

Guys, you are really getting ridiculous here. WDFW does not determine which fish are wild and hatchery by their fin clip, they determine it by coded wire tag and by reading scales - yes, that's right, you can tell a hatchery coho from a wild coho with 99.8% accuracy by reading the rings on the scale - used to do it for a living myself. There is no on-going plot to defraud the fishermen here

Hasn't anybody noticed that the coho runs have been bigger than ever these last couple of years. I noticed it because now on my home system I can keep wild fish without guilt - the runs have rebounded. Don't you think that, along with good ocean conditions that obviously play a major role, that it might have just a little bit to do with WDFW managing the fish better, by requiring "wild" fish release in the ocean and in a number of streams where the true wild fish are not up to snuff yet? And also by more effectively managing mixed stock fisheries so that there actually is adequate escapement to most systems? And by letting sport fishermen have the first crack at them instead of ocean trollers? Even the nets, indian or not, don't go in until we get a good shot at returning fish. I can't imagine why most of you obviously good fishermen biatch so much about having to release a few unclipped coho - I released most of my coho this year, unclipped or not, holding out for a king or just because I don't need a couple cards a year of meat. Fishing has been damn good these past few years, thank you, lighten up on WDFW and enjoy it

Spawnout very well said! While the managing agencies are not perfect, I do not believe in the coho conspiracy theory. Also Bilgerat, spawnig ground surveys for Coho include carcass recoveries, which means a large % of Coho are "handled" during spawning ground surveys.

You last 2 responders are exactly what I am talking about. You have bought in to the theory that the wild fish have made a miraculus recovery. You just don't get it. In the Ocean and in the river we are releasing thousands of nonclipped fish which are counted as wild fish. The greater percentage of scale samples read will show you that these are not wild fish. You have been well and truly duped. Allowing the take of non clipped fish in a stream where hatchery fish are placed makes no sense and totally skews all past data. I think it odd to consider that all of the sudden WDF&W is being run by the bio's and not the legislature. If you last 2 would send me your phone #'s I would like to talk to you in person at my expense. I need to get a better understanding of your perception of what is going on and why. Your logic makes no sense to me .

I think most fisherman are aware that wild Coho returns are no where near the number of hatchery Coho returns. I think you have misunderstood my post. I was trying to make you understand that just because Coho are unclipped does not mean they are counted as wild fish. That is why scale samples are taken and fish are checked for coded wire tags.

believe it or not cowlitz clips all the coho they release from the hatchery...just about...it depends on the skill of the clipping crews at the time....but they clip about 2 months to get them done ..