had to see that one coming...the green has been dead all winter.

thanks for posting that update KB

Green river....dead.....that's kinda' funny.

Does anyone have the email address for Director Koenings? I would like to email him some questions about this decision. Questions like, how are they able to predict the amount of natives. Unlike hatchery fish, natives don't all center upon a single point like a hatchery. They'll spawn anywhere. How are they able to find, let alone count all the redds? I have fished the Green several times for natives and have never seen a game warden or fish checker or anyone asking how many fish are being caught. How is it possible to predict the amount of natives? The native run this winter seems to be better than the last 2 or 3 years put together yet they're closing it early. I would just like to know why.

Take the Snohomish system for example. Wasn't it about 6 or 7 years ago they made it C&R only through March? Now, the last 3 years they have closed it completely in March and yet they say the run is not improving. Obviously, if sportsmen aren't allowed to fish, they aren't the problem, so where does the problem lie? Do they just plan to close down all native fisheries at the end of February?

I read or heard somewhere that the department considers there to be somewhere around a 60 - 70% mortality rate on C&R fish. Obviously, this is not true, but if they do indeed have this idea, it's a lose/lose situation for the sportsmen. If sportsmen are catching a large amount of natives, a sign of a healthy run, they'll close the river to protect the fish from the realistically very small mortality percentage. Whereas if the sportsmen aren't catching very many, they'll close the river because obviously there aren't that many fish in the system and the few that are there need to be protected.

Gee low returns in the green... wonder if it has anything to do with 3 or 4 miles of nets strung across the river like a damn maze....

Jacob please do write him. He will sometimes respond I just got a letter back. Here is the E-mail director@dfw.wa.gov

That SUCKS! The Green has been putting out fish the last 2 weeks. With the river blown out probably the season is over till June.

Jacob if you get a response please post.

I would say that on a more likely basis you caught that 20lb on the green right?

I have caught some that where close to that size on the green in the last couple weeks

I fished the green yesterday evening.I didnt catch anything but did see a nice one take a jump right after my eggs had drifted by. Drove by the river today up by highway 18 and it is high and muddy worse than it was yesterday.If we dont get any rain maybe It will drop enough to fish before it closes at the end of the mounth.

Ok, here is a copy of my email to the director:


Dear Dr. Koenings:

As an avid sports fisherman, it saddened me greatly to learn you were planning to deprive sportsmen of the final two weeks for the catch and release fishery for native steelhead on the Green River. Before I just say you're making a wrong decision (I am leaning that way), I would like to learn what information you have and how you get it that leads you to smack the sportsmen of this state such a hard blow.

By normal standards, the native steelhead run in the Green River peaks around March/April. Yet, this year there seems to be an abundance of wild steelhead in the Green. As early as it is and as good as it is, it will only get better as more fish come in. What factors are you using to predetermine the run size? There is no "locks" or viewing window on the Green. Native steelhead don't arrive at a central point like a hatchery like the hatchery fish do, they'll spawn anywhere in the river. That would make it all but impossible to locate all but the most obvious redds. To this day, I have never seen a game warden or fish checker on the Green inquiring on how many fish are being released by sportsmen. With no eyes on the river, how are you making this decision?

Perhaps you are basing your predictions for the native run on the dismal hatchery run. I'm not a biologist, but everything I've read has lead me to believe that wild fish and hatchery fish have very little in common. You could have a great hatchery return and a low native return or a poor hatchery return and a great native return (as we are seeing this year).

Take the Snohomish system for example. Wasn't it about 6 or 7 years ago the department made it C&R only through March? Now, the last 3 years you have closed it completely in March and yet they say the run is not improving. Obviously, if sportsmen aren't allowed to fish, they aren't the problem, so where does the problem lie? Do you just plan to close down all native fisheries at the end of February?

I read or heard somewhere that the department considers there to be somewhere around a 60 - 70% mortality rate on released fish. Obviously, this is not true, as any sportsman will tell you, but if the department does indeed have this idea, it's a lose/lose situation for the sportsmen. If sportsmen are catching a large amount of natives, a sign of a healthy run, you'll close the river to protect the fish from the realistically very small mortality percentage. Whereas if the sportsmen aren't catching very many, you'll close the river because obviously there aren't that many fish in the system and the few that are there need to be protected.

I am writing this letter out of anger and frustration because every year, it seems the sportsmen lose more and more opportunity. It's easy for the department to make the unsubstantiated claim that the run is too small, but when all realistic evidence indicates otherwise, it makes me really question the leadership of the department. What changes are you enacting to rehabilitate these fish so that in the future sportsmen will be able catch and release fish through <gasp> the end of March? The way the trend is going, it appears that in two or three years, rivers will be closing to us on February 15th, and a few years after that on Jan 31. This trend can't continue.

I look forward to your response,

JacobF, Nice letter. I know it had to be hard to keep it professional, I think it does and still sends a pretty clear/strong message. I agree with your comments, please post if you get a response back. Thx

My understanding is that the state uses redd counts to estimate run size. They take the redd count from the parents of this year's returning fish, and then take into consideration the conditions and events that may have influenced survival. Redd counts are done on foot, by boat, and by plane, depending on the stream. That's just what I've picked up from reading this, and other, internet boards. There are a few guys on this board who know a lot about fisheries management and can answer your questions in a lot more detail than I have. Maybe one of them will add something here.

Jacob,

Well stated. Your point on how they collect data may be valid. I believe you have a strong case the way you laid it out. It will be interesting to see how they substantiate the truth on measure/counting steelhead numbers on the Green River in particular. I believe it's possible that many times, a rivers proximity to the metro area(s) is(has now become) a secondary if not primary reason for some of the early closures. -Maybe a sort of a biased general feeling in the dept. that either too many people would show up and fish C&R(-or could potentially abuse it's privileges) and in turn effect the survival rate. -Or maybe they feel that city disturbances and suburbia sprall/growth cause enough problems in steelhead survival now and adding fishermen to the mix would only serve to compound the problem to native fisheries. If any of these were the case it would be a sorry story. It would be interesting to see what their long-range forcasts and models predict for future local King County steelhead watersheds numbers and the rules/regs for fishing might be as a result.... Thanks for being a concerned fisherman citizen and taking action. Hopefully they will do us all a favor and provide you with a response. Keep us posted!!
Good Fishing, DB

Jacob,

WDFW forecasts the native (wild) steelhead run size for the Green River using spawning survey data (redd counts from helicopter flights over the river about every 2 weeks during the spawning period) and running it through a spawner/recruit formula that forecasts an estimate of the number of 2-salt, 3-salt, and respawners that will return each year. The estimated run size has to exceed the spawning escapement goal in order for there to be a harvest fishery allowed on wild steelhead. The run size forecast has to be at least 80% of the escapement goal in order to permit a CNR fishery on wild steelhead. WDFW estimates CNR mortality on steelhead at 10% or less. Mortality could certainly be lower, but refer to the thread that mentions all the improper handling of fish to be released by recreational anglers.

In addition to pre-season forecasts, run sizes can sometimes be updated in season from catch and effort data provided a good relational database exists. I don't think WDFW has any inseason updating formulas for wild steelhead runs.

The upshot is that WDFW either has to prioritize conservation of wild steelhead or not. I hate to see fishing opportunity reduced, but what reasonable choices are there? If the run size is less than the escapement goal, then any fishing on that run will not increase the spawning escapement. Providing fishing opportunity comes only at the expense of escapement.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Hey Salmo,

Are you sure you really know what the mandate, and legislative findings and intent are when it comes to the loss of our recreational opportunity?

Cowlitzfisherman

If they make their estimates based on the redds from 3 years ago, why don't they set the season accordingly? The Green was to close on March 15th. Obviously, something recent has had to happen to get them to change this. They knew what the redd count was when they set the date for March 15th.

Looks like cfm found a few new words, mandate, intent, findings. Way to go.

ok this just sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
march through may ya right !
will see if they open it in june .

CFM,

No.

Jacob,

Redd counts from 4 and 5 years ago went into the forecast for the wild steelhead run size. A run size forecast should have been available pre-season, before December. If the forecasted run size was less than the spawning escapement goal, the steelhead fishing season was based on the availability of hatchery steelhead and a minimal impact on the wild run. That's known as a compromise. WDFW usually allows a run that is forecast to be less than its escapement goal to be made somewhat smaller due to "incidental" harvest during a fishery for another species or stock for which there are harvestable numbers. The pre-season forecast for hatchery steelhead probably predicted harvestable fish to be present - I don't know that, but you can verify it by calling WDFW, Mill Creek, 425/774-8812, and asking to speak with the steelhead harvest management biologist. As we now know, the hatchery steelhead run is a bust, with few hatchery returns, harvestable or otherwise. Therefore, the only reason to allow continued fishing in the Green River would be to allow angling opportunity at the cost of further reducing this year's spawning escapement, which is already predicted to be less than the escapement goal. Is that what you want?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo G-

Like many others, I too appreciate the time you spend writing responses to questions and thoughts that are brought up on this BB.

I would like to counterpoint this statement of your last post: "Therefore, the only reason to allow continued fishing in the Green River would be to allow angling opportunity at the cost of further reducing this year's spawning escapement, which is already predicted to be less than the escapement goal. Is that what you want?"

Too many times I have heard this argument come forth used as an un-challengable trump card. Supposing that the river remains open to angling with artificial lures/flies only (no bait) it is pretty logical to assume a total catch of 10% of the returning population. If this year's run were to be 1000 adults, that would make a total catch of 100 fish. Normal mortality under the aforementioned rules would be NO higher than 5% of the angled fish making a total incidental kill of 5. How could this possibly impact the Green's, or any river's, spawning population? This is where I get confused over the closures. Why not take the approach of limiting our effectiveness at catching the fish with tackle that is scientifically proven to be less damaging? But, that is not the way of WDFW and the POLITICS surrounding wild steelhead.

One last thought- By closing these rivers to all LEGAL fishing, does it not put these depressed populations at more risk of illegal harvest by allowing the poacher to execute his crime under zero surveillance from anglers?

William

Another interesting question; will the clubs in the area be holding their annual broodstock collecting program after the season ends. Can anyone supply data on the success of this program? Is this program really adding any value to the wild stock on the Green? Can someone fill me in?

Hi, all...

Not having the time, nor the inclination, to write comments on all the issues brought up on this thread, I'll throw one more in the pot...

I believe that the Feb. 28, rather than Mar. 15, closure also takes into consideration that all the other area rivers close on the 28th, creating the potential for a two week high intensity fishery on the Green. A high intensity fishery over an under-escaped population.

Yeah, I know, the Sauk and Skagit are still open...and are now the only open PS rivers (or will be next week). I suspect that there are a few differences, starting with the forecast that they will be above escapement (though not by much), and that there is just a whole lot of river to fish up there.

Fish on...

Todd.

Double Haul,

Good point and good question!

Todd,

Absolutely, you're correct about that! -That goes back to my earlier post thoughts on the subject of fishing pressure in the urban/suburban proximities. The Sauk is far a way enough to warrant it's C&R season even though the projection for wild returns is just barely within the estimated goal/limits....(A good number though, thanks in part to it's remoteness and ruralness) Also, there is less likelyhood on a river like the Sauk for there to be people fishing it when they get off work on the weekdays -atleast in an any measurable number..... The Green is very easy to fish in the spring after work for many folk, not to mention the close proximity it has to many peoples homes..... Hey, and why make the trek two hours in early March when it tkes you 5-30min to spend time on the Green -a lot easier decision for many fishermen.
Good Fishing, Darin

Inland,

Thanks for the appreciation; I'm happy to share any useful information.

Wow, and there's even less steelhead fishing opportunity in the Rockies!

You answered your own question in your example. The steelhead run of 1,000 fish is reduced by 5 spawners. Other hypotheses are just as applicable. On a river such as the Green, the harvest rate on native steelhead is very likely to be greater than 10%, for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread. It's close to the metro population center. Much of the good fishing water is very accessible. And anglers can stop by before or after work, so it's not just a major weekend fishing trip. Overall fishing effort is high. The overall catch is likely to be correspondingly high. And the incidental mortality, whether it be 2%, 5%, or 10%, reduces the spawning escapement by that number, whether we're fishing flies only, single barbless artificial lures, and so on. If the run is already less than the escapement goal (which is the MSH goal, which many, if not most, on this BB believe is way too low), then the population cannot possibly benefit from even this slight further reduction.

Your one last thought is very worthy of consideration in my view, perhaps even to the point of extenuating circumstance. It ain't supposed to be so, but in my observation of, and discussions with WDFW agents, closed waters are not patrolled much. Even a CNR season on wild steelhead seems to get a lot more patrol effort than a closed river at its peak with wild steelhead. I do think that CNR seasons, with their incidental mortality, might offset, at least partially, the direct mortality of poaching on an otherwise closed river. It's impossible to know, as it's an indirect relationship, but CNR seasons do put a lot of caring eyes on a river. For example, I've seen a lot of anglers on the Sauk in one day, apparently no one poaching - but some do use bait, in violation of the artificial lure reg, and a few miles away, on the Stilly, a couple poachers were bonking their second native steelhead from one pool. They got caught, but that's the exception; not the rule.

So I'm sympathetic to the notion that a legal fishery on a depressed run can offer a significant degree of protection that otherwise seems unavailable. The debate, however, is that WDFW has to draw a line somewhere. At what point do you discontinue the recreational fishing mortality on a depressed steelhead population? Under the wild salmonid policy, they have set it at 80% of the spawning escapement goal. You could suggest choosing another number, and it wouldn't necessarily be a better or worse number. But I think you have to stop fishing at some point. What would you choose?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo G,

Thanks for you professional input here. Very good and worthy information. Maybe there is some way of gathering data and statisics on a single case river regarding the difference between poaching mortality and strict C&R regs?.... Just with an isolated or single sample the WDFW might want to patrol heavily for a few years on a closed stream particular body of water that has already proven itself to be a "poachers dream". Then, they could cross-reference and compare these findings with known or estimated mortality rates from other rivers/streams that have C&R. In fact, they may even be able to gather this data from the same body of water if it's one of the streams that the WDFW manages in some years as a C&R wild steelhead and others as "closed waters"? -Just an idea....They probably wouldn't have the funding or time to do a sample test like this.....It may be better performed on a smaller good steelhead stream that poachers have frequented or be known to have fished in the past. -A ton easier to patrol I'm sure....
Good Fishing, Darin

Salmo,

Yes, steelhead are far and few between in my neck of the woods. And with this year's snow pack they will be in even shorter supply!

Which would I choose? In light of the recent returns to the Puget Sound rivers I would have to choose the conservative route of closure to attempt to hold on to every possible spawner. Hopefully things for the sound take a turn for the better and follow the trend found on the Oregon coast where runs are rebuilding quite well. When that happens I also hope the division takes the same conservative approach by considerably raising the escapement figures that should allow a larger buffer for the next population recession.

William

Am sad to see the Green closed, it is what I'd concider my home waters. I do hate to see it closed but would rather they close it with low returns and all the other rivers closed to see this river over run with people displaced from the closures through out the puget sound. The only problem I have is the many years of harvest of nats on this river that was allowed up until last year through Feb. Does not seem to make sence to allow that kind of harvest. Two a day with no down sized yearly limits and then to come back and say oh sorry we have over fished it and are not going to see the nat returns taditional to this river Oh well I'll get off my soap box and take one more float down it just to last me until June.

Tight lines

Kevin

so jacob have they allowed a netting fishery for the native steelhead on the lower duwamish river..? have you personally seen the nets?

I've heard some comments that the others rivers closing will push the fishing to the Green. I also just read someone saying the Wynoochee is now overfished with hundreds of people fishing it and no where near the fish to support it. This is bound to spread to the other rivers that are still open including the O.P. So, how many would support shutting down all the rivers in the state including the O.P.? I realize this is an overkill but I''m just curious on your response. PS - I am still pissed about the Green closing, I didn't get much fishing time this year and was really looking forward to a few more days on the green during the next couple of weeks.