If you had to pick one what would you say Is the biggest killer of our salmon and steelhead?

I voted for "bad environmnent", by which I assume you mean habitat.

I voted that way because it is a general concern for all runs, everywhere.

For individual runs, however, it totally depends on the conditions surrounding that run.

Tribal/commercial netting is devestating on some runs, while some runs don't have either, so it must be something else for them.

Some are heavily fished, while some aren't fished at all (recreationally).

Dams destroy runs...but only on rivers that have dams.

Some runs deal with horrible habitat issues, some runs swim through national parks with virtually pristine habitat, and are still in trouble.

Some runs coexist with hatchery runs, some have hatchery runs that are affecting them horribly, and some don't have hatchery fish at all and are still floundering.

I guess my point is that you can't point at one thing and say that's the problem. The interaction between factors is very relevant, too.

On a system like the Columbia, which has serious commercial overfishing problems, extensive sportfishing in the tribs, dams, really bad habitat, and millions upon millions of hatchery fish released each year, the wild fish are doomed. Fixing any one of the problems, except maybe removing all the dams in the mainstem and tributaries (yeah, right), won't save the fish.

Pointing at every other problem and doing nothing about the one or ones you can do something about won't help the fish at all, either.

Fish on...

Todd.

You really shouldn't try to point to 1 problem because it's a combination of all of your answers. The duck

Don't become a pollster for a carrear, and I will not be a professional speller. I had to vote Dams due to the Columbia, Skagit, Green, Cedar, and anything else with a dam. That said, Todd sumed up everything else. I think commercials and tribes do there damage, but are predominatly hatchery stocks, I don't think hatcheries play as large a role as some think. Finally, bad environment, what are we possibly going to do about ocean conditions, especially in the short term.
A better question on those might be which has the least impact on Salmon, I would have to say HONEST sportsfisherman, because we know that poachers are not honest or sportsfisherman.

NEN

If it was a one answer question it would be an easy solution. If you would have included "Mankind" that would have been pretty close to the truth.

Damn... caught me again !!! please throw me back or bonk me quick !!!

Like Todd, I equated bad environment to habitat. Furthermore, I feel that dams fall under the umbrella of habitat because they adversely affect the fish's habitat.

Duck is absolutely correct; we cannot point a finger at any one problem. It is a culmination of effects man has had on the resource. And I believe the biggest obstacle to fish recovery is our reluctance to recognize that fact. Too many special interest groups pointing fingers at each other-- and that includes sportsfishers.

I think most are aware of the 4Hs: Habitat, Hatcheries, Harvest, and Hydropower. Perhaps a better question would be, "In what priority should these be addressed in fish recovery?" My thought would be habitat/hydro, then harvest, then hatcheries.

We can, and must, fight a multi-front war on the recovery of our fishing resource, however, I feel we should set priorities (realistic, achievable goals) and focus on those.

And that's my 2¢.

IMO, pretty simple on the coastal streams in my area:

1) Tribal Harvest
2) Sport Harvest
3) Hatchery Impacts (this ties in with 1 and 2 somewhat)
4) Temperature Pollution of rearing areas by shade tree removal (really the only "pollutant" found in recent studies in our area).

Loss of habitat, from dams and pretty much all other human development activities, is the real killer of our salmon and steelhead runs. Yeah, overfishing wipes out a cycle of fish, but leave them alone and they will come back if they have something to come back to. But take away the habitat, or really even a piece of the habitat, and they will never come back.

The reason I say even a piece is because the bottleneck in the system is the limiting factor. You can have all kinds of spawning and rearing area in freshwater, and a good year in the ocean, but if the estuary is turned into a contaminated container port with 99% of the rearing habitat gone (Seattle, Tacoma, etc.), the juvenile fish have no place to adapt to life in saltwater and nothing to eat while they do, and they die. This phenomenon would be similar to, say, taking the I-5 bridge off of the Lewis River and making all commerce unload their cargos into rowboats to get across to load up on the other side and continue on. Hey, it's just a tiny piece of I-5, shouldn't hurt anything, right?

By the way, 60 bills were introduced into the state legislative session to eliminate or water down the hydraulic code so that WDFW would no longer protect fish habitat, by all your favorites like Doumit, Buck, Oke, etc. 32 are still alive and some are probably going to pass in the name of legislative reform. We are well on the way to losing what is left of fish habitat, and the fish won't be far behind

All of the answers combined. You can't point your finger at one and block out the others. They must all be taken into consideration simulataneously. The salmon issue is like a gem with various facets. To understand the problems one must take care not to overlook even the tiniest of facets. I won't participate in a biased poll.

I have to agree with Todd 99.8%.Nets are diffinitely killers,but steelhead are in low numbers,even on ,somewhat virgin streams.Ocean survival through predation and diseases,I believe ,play a large roll.Also ,on some of these'virgin'streams,I believe during the 70's and 80's,meat anglers(maybe at the time,they just weren't educated to the fact that this is NOT an endless resource)were taking large hacks at these somewhat lesser known streams.No doubt the local rednecks going to catch dinner.(jk).
I voted habitat.pollution,over logging,development.
All the choices,except the nets,have a common thread,and can actually be tied together.
That's my .02% of a loonie.

I simply think harvesting is the biggest problem the fish face. My take on the way to control harvest is to make the use of all boats (sport and tribal) transportation only.

Leaky Boot

That's why you will never be a fish manager!


Thank goodness that you are not in the majority.

What is possibly wrong with a guy who wants to sport fish from a boat?

Cowlitzfisherman

Well Gawldarn Cowlitz! Now you be presumin' to tell folks what they will and won't be! Is there no end to your abilities...

I voted for the most obvious Nets. , but the one thing I think is the real problem is predation. I think you have to start at the beginning , when and where the salmon and steehead start thier lives , Mergansers, Commerants, Herons, River Otters, these critters take a tremendous amout of the fry/smolts before they can even start thier next gauntlet in life, which would be trying to avoid getting eaten by seals, sea lions, other salt water birds , salt water otters and finally NETS. To give you a few examples Four years ago Reider ponds holding ponds had no netting over the ponds , there was 305,000 steelhead in each ,summer runs in one winter runs in the other, when the ponds were drained down( I was there) there was 44,000 left in one and 140,000 left in the other! that summer there was nets put over the ponds and the total loss from both ponds was under a thousand! Big differance! the year before we watched 5 otters eat and terrorize the smolts to the point when they were done eating they relentlessly chase the smolts to the point of exhaustion in the ponds, we watched the same thing happen in the river, A Merganser eats about 20-25 fish a day ,has between 5-18 young .-do the math it dosen't take long to figure out where the fish went PREDITORS think about it protect your young. Oh yeah 'I forgot to mention all the fisherman I saw using eggs and ripping the hooks out of the few remaining smolts as if they were pissed that the "Little *******s" had the nerve to bite there eggs when they were fishing for real steelhead , and of course you know that after having there thier heads almost ripped off ,planed across the water , hooks torned out of thier stomach and thrown back they LIVED!! NOT...........

4 Salk

You are right ! There is no end

Are you willing to stop fishing from your boat? <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

Cowlitzfishwerman

So Leaky Boot, do you have a problem with people who are fortunate enough to own boats or do you have some statistical data (to which I have never seen published) that segregates fish caught from the pier or the beach vs a boat....?

I think I may be able to clear this up a little. Leaky Boot must have mis-spelled his moniker when he registered. He actually meant "Leaky Boat" and that's why he doesn't think fishing from them is a good idea. j/k

Jeff - I'd bet he was talking about river fishing, not saltwater.

That's pretty funny 4Salt!

When I made my edit to my post, it was because I addressed my letter to "Leaky Boat" instead of "leaky boot"

But what the heck is the difference if you are fishing from a boat in the salt or a boat in a river? If you follow the logic what leaky boot says; it would be ok to set your net in a river and leave it (because you are only using your boat to get there). Then it would be ok to "pick up your net" and go, as long as you were not saying there fishing from your boat (the fishing part has already been completed!). What a bunch of goof's!

Tell us 4Salt, do you really agree and support what leaky boot says? Or are you just blowing off wind?

Cowlitzfisherman

Bob, I'm surprized why you said tribal harvest and didn't include commercial harvest too.

First of all, let me say I know just how this works. If someone new makes a post that differs slightly from the general opinion of this board, they are immediatley lambasted. Secondly, obviously I am refering to river fishing. All I am saying is that if you eliminated drift netting and made fisherman stand on the bank and cast the fish would stand half a chance.

On certain rivers fishing is not allowed from boats. These rivers are not in the lower 48- Without going into zipper detail, the reason they don't let people fish from boats is because they don't want you pulling plugs.... You can take the boat down the river but you have to get out of it to fish. It is a good tool for taking the pressure off the fish. At the same time none of those rivers allows any harvest of steelhead. None of these rivers have hatchery fish. It is true "sport fishing" at its finest.. It kicks butt.

So I won't say that its a good tool for all rivers, far from it. It would be a good tool for some of the smaller rivers for sure.

Duck ...

I looked at this post as relating to steelhead as it's that time of year and "commercial fishing" for steelhead was outlawed in this state 75 years ago ...

The tribes are the only ones that target steelhead, thus the term "tribal netting"

I voted environment/habitat but still there's too many things that contribute to the declining numbers of wild fish. There's nothing that I would say that Todd hasn't already.

LB ... I don't think it has anything to do with how new you are to the board. Banning fishing from a boat is a huge step, of course it's gonna be met with some comments.

Want proof?? Look back to the bait ban thread of a few weeks ago in which the board's most prolific poster over the years (under two monikers) heard an earful ...

Welcome

Bob, my mistake !!!!! I can be a little slow at times. Sorry Jim

B-Run....

There are most certainly rivers in Wa. and Ore. where boats are restricted to transportation only.

Cow Fisherman....

You could still ride around in your boat all day you would just have to step onto the bank to fish.


Barbless Hooks.....Scent Ban??? Come on that is just a Bandaid

one good thing to do is to inform your friends to boycott commercial steelhead. when you see it at QFC of Safeway, ask who makes the purchasing decisions and politely inform them that your morals will not allow you to shop at their store if they will be helping to eliminate our wild steelhead. the tribes have to sell these fish somewhere and if we can help curb the demand the supply will follow (although with a lag since most tribes cant seem to figure out supply and demand and point of maximum return.....thats why they overfish themselves right out of a profit at times ex: last summer 25C/lb for salmon)

Leaky Boot
We are all entitled to voice our own opinions, but I for one just don't understand your logic! It is my understanding that those so call "boat bands" on the smaller rivers had nothing to do with the protection of the fish; it had everything to do with the protecting and the prevention of conflicts between bank and boat fishermen! By that, I mean the agencies apparently decided to take such actions, because of the direct impute and demands from local fishers who wanted to stop any possible conflict before it may even get started between the bank fishers and drift boaters. You need to do a search and read all the impute on a thread called "Why does the "Willapa" have float restriction" I think that you will become much more informed about this issue after reading this thread.

There is plenty of impute as to why we have put boating restrictions on some of our smaller rivers. Almost none of floating restrictions that I know of were put on these rivers for fish protection.

Some species like salmon prefer deeper holding water, especially in mid sized rivers such as the Cowlitz or the Lewis. How do expect fishermen to fish for such species if they can't fish from a boat? How do you expect fishermen to use plugs or divers for bait if more then one fishermen were to be fishing in such an area? How would fishermen use their plugs or divers if they could not pull their baits or plugs behind their boat?

Your logic is comparable to something like this; you can use your car when need to travel to work only. You can not use your car for any other business, nor can you tow anything behind your car. You can still ride around all day long in your car if you want to, but you can not use it for anything else!

I don't really want to beat up on you, but when you make crazy unfounded statements like "I simply think harvesting is the biggest problem the fish face. My take on the way to control harvest is to make the use of all boats (sport and tribal) transportation only." you can expect to get some pretty negative responses from this board. There just isn't that much room for more then one or more fishermen to fish from that buoy out there at buoy 10!

It seems that we all have learned the hard way on this board; when you say something, you better be prepared to back up your statements with some sort of facts (even if they are the wrong facts). Again, sorry for the chew-out, and I will be looking forward to reading your future posts when you add just a little more facts to such wacky statements.

Anyway, that my opinion!

Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitz,

You should know by now that I was "blowing wind". Hmmmm, maybe a better term would be "breaking wind", in your general direction of course! :p

Nah, I don't agree with Leaky boot's position, but I DO think he has the right to express it without you insulting him.

Anybody else astonished that there was not one solitary vote on this poll for sportsmen?

Of course not; this is a sportsmans board afterall. And being true sportsman who could dare accuse us of having any negative impact on the fish?
Of course, these votes are from the same guys (myself included) that are slammin' steel, rippin' lips and firing up barbys and would now have you think they only feed steelies out of their hand, pet them on their dorsals and tuck them in at night.
I wonder if we were to ask the question from the fishes point of view what they would say. But then maybe their mouths would be to sore to talk.

Anyway I was wondering, if this poll accurately reflects what is worse for the fish, could we then say that the inverse results reflect what is best for the fish?

Cowlitz......

You got me, I do not have an ounce of statistical data to back me up. Your "How do you expect me to fish without my boat" mentality is perfect. I`ll bet noone has ever caught a salmon bankfishing the Lewis river.


I think regulations (and cogitation) based on stastical data and not common sense have delivered us to where we are today.

Leaky boot

You are way smarter then me! I can tell by your reply that you will go far on this board!

To bad that you aren’t very well informed about sport fishing or how boats relate to harvest!



Cowlitzfisherman

Actually LB ... I have, several ... up at the Golf Course. Alaso watched plunkers at the mouth get some too when I trolled there a lot as well growing up.

Reminds of the time a seal took a plunker's rod right out of the holder .. I think someone forgot to check the drag

Good call Mooch, I too was very surprised. As you can tell from my line of reasoning ... I'm certainly aware of sportie's effect and fight to reduce them when needed. In the case of my local rivers though, I'd still put the nets #1 though

I recieve an earful everywhere I go????...

Thanks for all the responses I was kind of worried here for awhile that sporties would have gotten some votes because of the intense arguing for closures, bait bans, barbless hooks here in the past by some people.

I think most people here know how I voted but I'll say it anyways. Nets, you can have the most pristine creeks and rivers but if fish get netted it doent matter how pristine and pretty that water is. Some people say my local river doesnt get netted but the fish still decline. I say it does get netted, theres plenty of nets it the ocean,straights,and sound. They are nondiscriminate killers no matter where they are.

I did not vote for Dams because not all dams are without fish ladders. While some dams have totally destroyed native runs like the elwha and mayfield on the cow the majority still run free. Still not good but not the worst in my opinion.

I did not vote for hatcheries because,............. well just because!

micropterus101

In your sort time on this board, and posting, you have learned a lot! It's good to have you aboard and rebutting us when you see a deficiency in what some of us say. Have you figured out yet how to keep people focused on what your issue is?
When you do, LET US ALL KNOW HOW TO DO IT!!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Only when you turn your head to one side at the last second, Sparkey...