KLAMATH IRRIGATORS TO GET FULL DELIVERIES?: The Bush administration has
begun delivering to Klamath Basin irrigators ,what likely will be a full
allotment of water for this summer despite dry conditions that could leave
little for the region's protected fish species. says the Salem Statesman
Journal, AP 4/3. Conservationists, Native American tribes and fishermen are
looking to a federal court to reverse the administration water delivery
priorities and order that adequate water be reserved to protect the
endangered and threatened fish, in a year when the Klamath Basin?s water
supply stands at scarcely half its normal amount. A decision in the case
is expected by early May.

Just think most of the people on this board prefer bush to Clinton

Well what about all of this is this nothing important?

On December 3rd, President Bush signed the bill which extends for five more years a program under which the federal government leverages donations from conservationists, state wildlife agencies, sportsmen and landowners who pledge to protect wetlands throughout the United States. Many of these wetlands are vitally important to migratory waterfowl.
Since its inception in 1991, the United States government has contributed $462 million, matched by $1.3 billion in outside donations, which have been used to acquire land, establish native plants and restore waterways. President Bush, pictured here with Secretary of the Interior, Gale Norton, was joined by members of his cabinet, senators and representatives, as well as representatives of many conservation groups.
Peter Trexler commented that “we are very pleased that this administration continues to demonstrate an interest in preserving our nation’s wetlands and wildlife and were most pleased to have been invited to attend the bill signing.”


WASHINGTON, DC—The long-awaited 2002 farm bill signed into law by President George Bush today is good news for ducks and duck hunters, says Delta Waterfowl Senior Vice-President Peter Trexler.
The controversial farm bill, which will cost an estimated $173.5 billion over 6 years, re-authorizes the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) at 39.2 million acres, nearly 3 million acres more than the ceiling set by the 1996 farm bill. It also re-authorizes the Wetlands Reserve Program (WRP) at an annual enrollment of 250,000 acres and a cap of 2.275 million acres, and establishes a Grassland Reserve Program (GRP) aimed at restoring or improving 2 million acres of grasslands.


Did any one of you that voted for Gore thinK
About his wife? She is in the leader ship at P.E.T.A, Isnt that just what we all need them with power to hurt," what we all hear can agree on" Fishing and Hunting. Just my opinion.

Thought some of you on the Board would like to read the "real story" surrounding the Klamath Basin. This article was written by Ted Williams and printed in Audubon.


Salmon Stakes

Last fall's salmon die-off on the Klamath River was an ecological catastrophe born of gross watershed abuse. It was also predictable, avoidable, and utterly typical of White House priorities. by Ted Williams

In an effort to appease irate irrigators, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation (BuRec) had dewatered the Klamath River, which drains a 9,691-square-mile watershed of high desert, woods, and wetlands in southern Oregon and northern California. By July the agency had cut the flow from its Iron Gate Dam from 1,000 cubic feet per second—previously deemed by the administration as the bare minimum necessary to prevent extinction of the system's coho salmon—to about 650 cfs. From July 12 to August 31 more water went down the main diversion canal to irrigators than down the river to salmon.Meanwhile, farmers were getting—and wasting—so much water that they were flooding highways and disrupting traffic.

Until October 31, 2002, when The Wall Street Journal ferreted it out, the Bush administration had been suppressing a peer-reviewed U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) study that found that agriculture in the Klamath Basin generates $100 million a year compared with the $800 million generated by recreation, such as camping, boating, rafting, swimming, and fishing, and that restoring water to the river would boost this last figure to $3 billion. The study also determined that buying out the farms and protecting the land would create $36 billion in benefits at a cost of $5 billion. In an internal USGS memo obtained by the Journal, an agency scientist revealed that the regional director "wants to slow [release of the study] down because of high sensitivity in the Dept. right now resulting from the recent fish kill in the Klamath. Suffice it to say that this is not a good time to be handing out this document."

In the Klamath Basin the government gets farmed a lot more than the land. There is scant demand for most of the crops grown; sometimes they're even plowed back into the ground. Originally it cost farmers nothing to get a permanent irrigation hookup to BuRec's public-financed Klamath Project. Now, on top of this, they get electricity to operate irrigation pumps at one-sixteenth of fair market value, a lower rate than their ancestors paid in 1917. During the dry summer and fall of 2001, basin farmers—some irrigating normally with emergency wells drilled at public expense—harvested $48.6 million in state and federal relief. Many reported their most profitable year ever.

There is only one solution to the Klamath water crisis: End lease farming on the refuges and buy farms and water rights from willing sellers. Before the summer of 2002 the federal government was committed to just this. But it gave up when it ran into fierce resistance from business interests that profit from farming, such as pesticide and fertilizer distributors, and from farmers who lease land cheaply on the refuges and therefore profit from subsidies. In an October 23, 2001, letter to Representative Wally Herger, the Tulelake Growers Association tried to get Phil Norton, who was then manager of the Klamath refuges, disciplined for alleged violations of the Hatch Act, which proscribes lobbying by federal employees. As evidence the association cited comments attributed by the media to Phil Norton, such as: "We are trying to fix the system so that it works again, but there's a lot of land that, frankly, never should have been put into agriculture production."
The Klamath tragedy isn't an isolated event. On September 30, when the salmon die-off was at its peak, the administration was giving away federal water a thousand miles east, on the Gunnison River in Colorado, thereby desiccating the Black Canyon of the Gunnison National Park and jeopardizing four endangered fish and a world-famous trout fishery. Earlier in the month Interior declined to appeal a bizarre court ruling that canceled the water right of Deer Flat National Wildlife Refuge in Idaho, a refuge dedicated to waterfowl. Since 1973, when the Endangered Species Act outlawed these kinds of risks, no other administration has been willing to take them. Now they're a habit with the Bush team, and it isn't winning any pots.

RM

2,000 pounds of grain and about 1,000 gallons of water are used to produce 1 lb of beef. while i like to eat steak and will continue to do so, I try to cut out beef as much as possible from my diet and eat chicken... or better yet fish. for every pound of beef that I go without, I save 1,000 gallons of water for our watersheds. Its not that eating beef is mean to the cow, its mean to the fisherman. and it doesnt make economic sence(that is why the cattle lobby is so troubled) as fishermen, we are environmentalists by nature. why try and hate ourselves and others for it. cut your beef consumption in half and you will catch more fish in the long run.

Bush this Bush that. Just like democrats to point fingures. Like previously mentioned we could have Gore and no guns. Probably on the fast track to no hunting or fishing either. That's what we want isn't it? Nope it isn't. Doesn't anyone think before they speak anymore.

Chappy raises a good point. Livestock production is extremely hard on the environment. A huge percentage of our farmland is used to grow cattle feed. Though not for everyone, I like venison as an alternative to beef.

You can support Bush and NOT support everything he does. Life is not 100% black or white. Okay, you like Bush, that's fine, but do you realy think we shold NEVER point out his flaws?
Is ignorance really bliss?

This was not meant as a Bush/Gore rehash, but as an example of an area he's very weak in - protecting the environment. If you love Bush let him know he's vulnerabel on this. That way you can have 4 more years of his teriffice leadership.

LMAO! I'm laughing at the irony of this post, by the way, not directly at it's contents.

Like we haven't at some time or another had someone sitting on the right side of the aisle blame todays problems on Clinton. If you ask me (I know you didn't, but I thought I'd share), most of today's problems are as much a product of overall silly partisan politics as either party's actions individually.

I cringe every election at the thought of having to vote for either an environmental rapist or a bleeding heart liberal, but that's usually the way it gets played out. If they don't stick to the party line they don't make the cut. One side errs on the side of corporate America, and the other side errs on the side of the people that don't understand that someone has to make big sacrifices to save the shortnosed sucker fish from extinction.

Chappy,

Here Surecatch gives you a meat pitch, right down the middle, to hit a "lefty" homerun, and you go after......the beef industry?

Now, I like chicken too, but I think your your lb. grain/lb. beef production ratios are just plain silly. Let's say a big ol' prime steer weighs 800 pounds on the hoof and you get 500 pounds of meat after butchering. Are you really saying it takes 1,000,000 pounds of grain to produce that meat?

If this was the case none of us would be able to afford beef, there would be no McDonald's, and the all the deer and elk would be extinct for sure.

Chappy, I was born on Monday, but is wasn't last Monday! You crack me up.

Ike

Is this a fishing site or a political bashing site? Surecatch's original post only spoke to the disgusting kill of about 33.000 salmon in the Klamath, and the fact that the current federal government is apparently making things worse. I don't think he said anything about guns or Hillary, or the democrats, or anybody else.

ikiss. i accidentally switched the stats(1000 lbs of grain and 2000 gallons of water, my fault) . and those stats come from the beef industry. if you have fed cows and butchered cows then what was the feed to end product ratio that your farm ended up with. go throw a 100 lb sack of grain into a feed bin and see how long it lasts. anyway it is funny that many seem to be so convinced that i am wrong that they have to attack me before thinking at all about the topic. on a good note... it only takes five gallons of water to produce a gallon of beer. but for real chicken is not near as water intensive pound for pound as beef. your point about how beef would be so expensive is true. beef costs us much more than we pay in the store and the proof is apparent every time there is a water shortage to grow feed grains and a fish kill results.

aunty em- you seem to ask me that all the time. do you read past the "if you cant debate" portion of the message every time?. do i need to clear up that i am not a bully and have never beaten up someone that has not physically attacked me! your question would be better suited to those that were advocating violence against peace protestors! now that takes balls... go beat up a peacenick.... and you have no problem with that? ..... with that kind of bravery I bet most of you are afraid of fast tailouts so you fish at troutlodge instead. all i was saying is pick a real battle. you cant even stay on the topic so quit criticising me. do you agree that consumption takes a toll on our resources ?or do you live on a planet that is getting bigger every day and increasing in rivers and runs?

get thicker glasses aunty... you cant read. i bet your tough. why dont you go organize a flotilla on intelligence. and shove it with your gun stuff. you are what you dislike about me! cuz you are doing everything you say i am doing (except you donta actually read what i say) i think the only hookin you should be doing is hooked on phonics. why is all this redneck crap ok but the truth isnt aunty? is that cuz the truth hurts the fragile little reallity that you live in. How bout that mason county 500 year flooding we get five times a year aunty? did the environmentalists do that too?go logging go! we need more logging! hey i sound like you now

no but if i said that clear cutting kills fish you surely would have disagreed with me and threatened me with your gun. talking tough is for the people i allready told you that you would be better off addressing. you sure seen to be a tuff talker. have i done or said something or anything that threatens you? have i ever made a personal attack on you? someone who makes personal attacks on me weekly? where do you come from with all this? all i have asked is for someone with your viewpoint to discuss it rationally with out attacking me and for those hel bent on attacking me i have offered a more gentlemanly solution. do you really have a problem with the fact that I have trained people to make their jobs and lives safer? I think you just cant handle the fact that a liberal had something to to with something that you agree with! cuz it upsets your view of the world as told on the bill o'reilly show. standing up for what you believe in is not acting tough aunty it is what bush is doing too. like it or not... agree or not... we all better start standing up for what we believe in.and in doing so we will all become more educated, but you diont seem to do that... just attack those from the liberal perspective. i am so happy you have a .357 aunty! i think of you as tough too now. and you seem to have such a responsibe attitude about guns as well. do you keep it in the cookie jar?

aunty please tell me. whom did I advocate violence against? i have not "advocated" violence against anyone. i am an example of a very real person on this board that violence was advocated against though. lest just stick to this one single point of whom was advocating what. am I wrong here?

Bush still up to his tricks. I found this on Yahoo's homepage if anyone is interested.


Definition

(AP) - A federal judge has upheld the current definition of the "dolphin-safe" tuna label and barred the Bush administration from altering it, handing a victory for environmentalists. The ruling Thursday by U.S. District Judge Thelton Henderson prevents the government from labeling tuna "dolphin safe" if fishermen encircled the dolphins to make the tuna catch. More...

riverman-I
ll ahve to look into it but i think this may only be domestically. i thought that the WTO declared "dolphin safe" to be an impediment to free trade and therfore internationally non legal. it allways makes me wonder when I see a can of tuna from indonesia that says "dolphin safe" . if the people are barely safe in indonesia than how can the dolphins or tuna be safe.. we still have thousands of soldiers in indonesia cleaning up the east timor mess (muslim radicals, that conservative america protested US and UN involvement in) bet the thousands massacred there with machetes wish they had oil for resources and not fish ...anyway thanks for the post . ill check out the article

aunty em ill ask you again. where did I condone violence against anyone? saying to someone that was condoning violence against protestors " ill give you $2,000 to back up what you are saying " is not condoning violence. mods pleeze kick off chappy... he's liberal... give me a break. and the way this got started was from a guy on the chehalis that pulled a gun on me for asking him to remove three of his four plunking rods. whats the problem with asking peoiple to follow the rules. cowlitzfisherman made a very unecessary attack on me personally for that post and I stated two options that are much more appropriate for disagreements. what was the problem with that? now the only people you will find in this debate that condoned violence against anyone are yourself with your "i have more calibers than brains " comments and the folks that think it is ok to go around punching protestors. I think it is interesting that you are so sensitive to others fabricating your views , but you seem to fabricate mine all the time. what gives? the blocks you quoted were not an advocation of violence against anyone! besides boxing is not violence. its an art. but going around punching protestors is not only violence... it is doing the terrorists job for them.

on a side note. i am very happy that you are not in favor of opening up ANWR. neither am I. in fact I dont understand the statement that the iraqi oil belongs to he iraqi people either. does that not reek of socialism? how the resources beliong to the people and all. why is it that the US oil does not belong to the US people. these leaders of our are taking some strange turns. in fact i might have to write a lil post about that. if no one minds just a bit more non fishing talk! its kinda funny how everyone says this is a fishing board (not politics)when we all agree on almost anything directly related to fishing! could you imagine us sitting around debating if pink worms really work? now that would be silly. we only get into good fiery debates on fishing politics and more peripheral fishing topics. but we should all know that no matter how much we disagree with other board members. we all have something in common...fishing. i think that commonality should give us all greater ability to listen to those with completely opposing views, and not less ability. i believe in attacking ideas and not people but when i repededly get attacked personally by those whom are not informed enough to attack the idea then it becomes more likely that I will respond in kind. hey i dint engage in a pre-emptive attack did I? I have had anti-war friends beaten up lately and I wrote earlier that someone tagged my truck(my business truck, I am a roofing contractor) with the words "traitor" now I ask you in all seriouseness. do you care at all about the violence inflicted upon these people or the destruction of my property or do you only disagree with violence against people that you agree with?

aunty i am trying to find some common ground here and you continue on with stuff like mr. "crappy" I am sorry to inform you but you are an environmentalist if you have the views you say you do. why is that a bad thing? . i am from a NAVY familly as well. My mom grew up on the NAVY base in Morrocco. My cousin is a captain of a nuclear submarine in the gulf right now. My father faught in vietnam in the marine corps. and came home not the same. my great grandpa spent many years in a japonese concentration camp and pulled out all the gold from his teeth to trade to his captors for food. my grandpa was a NAVY man for his entire career and my other grandpa a merchant marine captain(capt. edwin Nystrom) who was torpedoed off the coast from La push. You have not made any sacrifices that myself and my familly have not made. You have never donated hundreds of hours of your time to training police and then years later read about dead former students and wondered if you could have taught them anything different that would have saved them. I bet you are a tough ole broad as you say and I bet you would remind me alot of my grandma who smacked me ooh so hard at my cousins graduation ceramony at the Annapolis naval academy when I refused to stand for the president when they play that -here comes the president song- that was the first pres bush. and my views never changed. but still my grandma smacking me in the head is one of my favorite memmories. Actually Ill tell ya a story that was a really cool thing bush did that day. the graduating class fraduates in order of top of the class to bottom. so that the last person to get called is the bottom of the class. when that kid came up to shake HW bush's hand and get his diploma. george took off his wrist watch and gave it to him. I was later told that it was inscribed. I thought that was so cool. ....almost as cool as my tough ole broad of a grandma smacking me in the head and saying "i dont give a **** what you think you belive, you will allways stand for your president"
I will allway stand for my president when he enters the stadium. but I just dont stand in agreement with him

anty- i am glad to hear you are a moderate. so is my father. i am not.,.,. so be it. I believe that the only thing for the middle of the road is yellow lines and dead armadillos. In other words
dont offend the full bloods
dont offend the whites
stand in the middle of the road
like a doe in headlights

I like that one...can I steal it?

actually elk ... i think i may have stolen it myself or something similair but i cant remember where from(i think a texan country singer). steal away my brother...the other is adapted from a sherman alexie quote from -lone ranger and tonto fist fight in heaven- i believe . but i think he said "get hit by a truck" and i like doe in headlights better. of course who am i to go changing shgerman alexie. if you ever get a chance to hear him speak or do a reading...do it. he is extreemely funny, probably one of the best authors ever and a spokane indian. He wrote the movie "smoke signals". he has lots of funny stories abvout flying post sept. 11. I heard him say once . "when i get on a plane, people are like... what is this some long haired italion or terrorist or what and i fel like beating a drum and spreding casino chips as i walk down the aisle so that they know im obviousely an indian"


i also heard him tell a story about driving up 405 right after 9/11 and a guy in a giant truck with a huge flag pulled up next to him and yells " go back to your own country" then he said it was about a mile before i figured out to yell back "you first" then I thought maybe he knew i was a spokane indian and meant "go back to your own county"

i digress but check him out if ya get the chance. he lives in seattle and is hilariouse..

Auntie:
I have a .357 and about 5000 rounds
did you make those cookies? And are they chocolate chip? if so get your gun and cookie jar.
I’ll get the milk and ammo. and lets go practice.

Well, for my two cents..... I am tired of small groups getting their way by crying "our way of life is in jeopardy" such as Farmers, Commercial fisherman, loggers, etc.....
Times change, and we all have to adapt to the changing conditions of the world. Farmers, Ranchers, etc. should not be any different.
More people benefit from the Klamath basin then the few farmers/ranchers that are getting the water "to hold on to our way of life". Maybe they should get into the grape business cause they are so good at making Whine, er, I mean wine.....

I guess I'm not a true outdoorsmen.

Theres one who people call a *****. He does whats mainly best for humans, to help the quality of life, sometimes not seeming to care about the environment. But when someone attacks those humans, he retaliates with a full force of millions of soldiers.

Then theres one who people call a saint. Hey, hes had extra-marital affairs while in office, and never really does much when attacked (but we're supposed to forgive those who want his people dead anyways, its just other humans... not like its FISH...), but he stands up for the environment!

Sorry guys, but I'm gonna risk a drop in fishing and appreciate the fact that I can go up hiking, hunting, fishing, or just wildlife viewing (no matter how scarce the wildlife) without some radical religious extremist dropping a plane, bomb, or fatal chemicals on me.

Kaari, I believe you called that attitude fatalistic? Works for me.

Curtis

its "the only thing in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead animals"

that is a quote by Rush Limbaugh, and very true indeed

That's a pretty significant contradiction there; to the many on this board, our quality of life IS ALL ABOUT the environment. Personally, my quality of life has eroded in the last two years.

Congratulations to the terrorists; your fears are proving them victorious. Furthermore, if you think what's going on now is diminishing the terrorist threat, you're gravely mistaken. But just imagine how we could have beefed up our own homeland security with $80 billion.

metalhead- rush limbaugh stole it too! that is not his quote. i cant remember the singer but its from a song for sure before rush. its a great line though no matter how ya change it.

The Bush Onslaught Continues:

New wilderness policy enacted

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration, holding that many wilderness areas proposed after 1993 were invalid, has thrown out the handbook used by federal land managers to decide which areas deserve to be protected.

The new policy, announced Friday, represents a reversal of the practice, established by the Clinton administration, of encouraging the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to assess land for its wilderness qualities before allowing it to be developed for other uses.

The changes could significantly alter the BLM's treatment of millions of acres primarily in Washington and 11 other Western states, and could increase the likelihood that mining, drilling and road building will be allowed.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.co...p;date=20030413