would you or "do" you support what they are trying to do ?

Washington Trout is an animal rights/environmental extremist organization in trout's clothing.

WT is also lawsuit happy it seems. Their current lawsuit against WDFW seeks to close Puget Sound hatcheries in the interest, they say, of wild Chinook salmon. In the past it appears that WT has done some things that are admirable but in recent times they have moved towards an agenda more like PETA than what their name might suggest. The current lawsuit appears to be on track to be settled out of court as other WT initiated lawsuits have been in the past. It remains to be seen what sort of booty they walk away with this time. Whatever it is they will also walk away with far fewer supporters and alot more enemies. Some very big guns, and ex-supporters, have lined up in opposition to WT since this latest lawsuit was filed.

I , for one, really question WT's motives and will watch what they do rather than listen to their rhetoric which is peppered with misleading statements and half truths. WT looks more and more like an organization, like PETA, that wants to end fishing , not help it. I know I have said in the past that I thought WT had a hidden agenda and I still believe that. Some say..Oh NO their agenda is right there on their website. Bunk! I think the hidden agenda may just be very extreme and very unfriendly to fishermen. ..and hunters...

here is a link to the wt website for the page that shows people or groups that donated stuff to them for there up comming auction LINK , i went to the association of northwest steelheaders website and seen that buzz ramsey is an honaray director, is this the same buzz that heads up the nsia that is fighting to keep hatcherys open ? maybe someone could have buzz come on here and explain why he is a part of a group that is donating to the group that is trying to close our hatcherys ?

WT is trying to save our wild salmon and steelhead. What ever could they be thinking? I do not agree with all they do, but I know Ramon and know he is 100% for the fish. And he is willing to work his heart out for what he beleives in. I respect that.

I believe what is best for salmon is best for sport fishermen.

I believe what is best for salmon is properly planned hatchery programs that do not impact wild populations and emphasize natural production.

I believe that what WT is doing will benefit us all in the long run. The problem will be getting past the short-term rhetoric we face when questioning hatchery augmentation.

I support WT tactics in this suit and wish them luck


Regards

P.O.S. Clerk

They Suck !!!!!
They are a left wing group that if they don't get there way they don't want to play and will do whatever it takes to ruin it for everyone else. They are by no means friends of the average sportsfisherman.
All they want to do is sue everyone who dosen't agree with them.
Peace Superfly

Washington Trout is a radical, left-wing organization that has no idea what the hell they are talking about, I am just waiting for them to practice PETA and ALF (Animal Liberation Front) tactics by burning or sabotaging a hatchery. Looking at their history, it appears that they sue to pad their pockets so they can afford more suits. They are basing their allegations on California rivers and one SW Wash. River. The recent results of a smolt trap done by a tribe found that NO hatchery steelhead or hatchery coho had chinook fry in their stomachs after they were pumped. Hatchery coho and steelhead were trapped 30+ miles away 2-3 days after their release from the hatchery that I operate and a state hatchery that we work with hand in hand. They caught Dolly Varden and Bullheads in their trap as well and they were the only species that had chinook fry. Why don't they sue the fish that is eating the fry rather than the alleged fish from a river 1000 miles away? Better yet, sue mother nature, in this case she is causing the problems.

Their research methods are faulty, no scientific review to speak of. When a member of our sportfishing organization called Kurt Beardslee, he basically couldn't back it up. He kept spinning his wheels and dodging the questions. I support a boycott of the businesses and drafted a letter telling those companies the potential impact of the lawsuit and that scores of fishermen will be signing it in May pledging our that we will not support or purchase their products and services.

WDFW finally got the clue that they need to fight this and my conversations with them (to some of the highest levels in the agency) provide me with confidence that their lawsuit is a joke. I just hope the judge agrees and they will run and hide.

pos if WT get there way and shut down the steelhead and salmon hatcherys they just as well close down all the rivers and if that happens they will never reopen the rivers for us ever so i hope WT dont ever win this in court. i think the indians have a say on this one. i dont think WT have leg to stand on in court oh ya WT take your ball and go home.

PETA!!!

EXTREMISTS!!!

ANTI-"SPORT"FISHING"!!!

LEFT WING!!!

Looks like they are pissing all of the same people on this board who feel like their 'right' to fish is sacrosanct.

For that reason alone, I like them.

If not for WT's litigation what leverage would there be against poor hatchery practices?

This answers to the posted question will breakdown into two predctable groups....those that feel native fish populations in Washington rivers are above the needs of sportsmen to fish and those that feel their right to fish supercedes the need to protect wild steelhead and salmon.

Why don't people understand that taking the position 'hatchery fish at the expense of wild fish, or at the expense of my right to fish' is an equally radical position to that of WT?

In the end, hasn't their litigation resulted in WDFW's compliance with Federal law? The only way I could see some one viewing this as bad is if they didn't agree with the ESA listings in the first place...a very difficult position to defend, but I'm listening.......

What do I think of them? Wolf in sheep's clothing. They want to cut away our fishing opportunity one thing at a time.

But why the hell is everything that any one person on this board doesn't like supposedly left wing? Our illustrious President and his administration has done a lot to screw over salmon and the environment in general, and no one calls him left wing.

h20...don't forget that your posts are every bit as predictable as mine...

There is no question that protecting wild salmon and steelhead is everyone's wish. To state that without WT there would be no hope for hatchery reform is just not so. Reforms are underway but remember the politics of all of this. The money. WT sues to accelerate the process supposedly by seeking to close the hatcheries down. That solution would be akin to closing all fishing in Washington State tomorrow by edict. Executive order tomorrow that calls for riparian zones of 1 mile back from all river and stream banks. Designate all of Puget Sound closed to any and all fishing until further notice. Outlaw all fishing in the country except catch and release fly fishing. Those sound ridiculous but they are extreme measures that could really accelerate the revival of wild fish stocks. Suing WDFW is extreme as well and has alienated a large group of people who used to support WT. The suit also wastes really scarce funds that could go to better use. WDFW is not the only villian and should not be the only target of our disapproval of the decades old decline of wild salmon and steelhead.

Unfortunately politicians feeding at the trough of public funds have to rule on where the limited budgets get spent. Hurting businesses cry to these pork creators for relief from strangling regulations so decisions are made that adversely effect the environment and our fish runs. The political process is cumbersome and good things take way to long to come to pass, but suing WDFW to accelerate a process that is underway is a hostile act and puts WT in that category of being part of the problem and not part of the ultimate solution.

By the way, I don't think the WT lawsuit issue is driven by Ramon's self-described "far left" politics. Saving our salmon and steelhead should be a joint effort of all ideologies. Unfortunately group consensus doesn't work too well if one party insists on an extreme agenda and will not listen to the majority.

grandpa-

"two predictable groups..."

I didn't forget.

I kinda think both parties involved are blowing smoke up our butts and not telling "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help the fish."

Although I don't like the ideas of diminishing fishing opportunities, I do like the fact that *someone* is keeping the WDFW in check. I don't trust the WDFW.

On the flip side, I fear any group that has hidden motives and agendas, especially when it comes to fishing. I don't trust WT either.

Well said parker! That about sums up my position as well. I know Aunty probably thinks I'm a closet supporter of WT, as I've hesitated to join the critical bandwagon, and have tried to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I see it about like Surecatch. I don't necessarily agree with WT's tactics, and I don't know Ramon personally, but I respect his position and his willingness to defend it here, even in the face of such open hostility.

I like Washington Trout.

They make it clear that they are not trying to hide their agenda: the preservation and recovery of Washington's wild fish resources, without favor to any stakeholder group.

Washington Trout is not anti-fishing. Nor is it pro-fishing. It is pro-fish. It does not advocate for animals' rights. It is advocating for the rights of PEOPLE who have not had the opportunity yet --that all have us on this board have enjoyed-- to derive benefit from this particular public resource (wild fish), either because they don't live here, or haven't gotten around to it yet, or because they haven't been born. Wild fish are a public resource; they belong to everybody. People who have already used that resource don't have anymore right to it than anybody else. WT is one of many groups fighting to preserve our public resources so that everybody will be able to enjoy those resources forever.

Washington Trout does not invent its positions based on ideology, whim, or any agenda other than preserving and recovering wild fish. It bases its position on established principles of conservation-biology, the preponderance of current science --based both on our own field work and the peer-reviewed, published work of others, and on our interpretation (shared by many others) of state and federal environmental laws.

Washington Trout does not focus on any one area that may impact wild fish declines and or recovery. It does not pick solely on anglers, commercial fishers, or even on hatchery or harvest issues. Washington Trout is working on issues and challenging policies across the entire range of practices that can negatively impact wild fish, including forestry, agriculture, development, hydro-power, and other habitat issues. it works with government agencies and sometimes against them. It cajoles, presses, sometimes strikes deals, and sometimes challenges, sometimes in court. It has gone up against nearly every interest group in the Northwest to defend Washington's wild fish, including private business, the Washington Departments of Ecology, Natural Resources, Transportation, and Fish and Wildlife, Tribal agencies, The EPA, NMFS, US Fish and Wildlife Service, and the Forest Service. It has also worked cooperatively with every one of those entities (and still does).

It has accomplished a lot. It has improved management practices in both fisheries and habitat regulation. It has saved literally thousands of salmon and steelhead streams that were incorrectly identified and that would have been otherwise damaged or destroyed by forestry, agricultural, or development practices. It has reopened hundreds of miles of streams that had been blocked to fish migrations by poorly designed culverts or other fish-passage barriers. It has designed and implemented habitat restoration projects throughout Washington. It continues to work on all these issues every day.

And it is working to improve hatchery practices so that they don't negatively impact wild fish, particularly wild fish listed as Threatened or Endangered under the ESA. It shares the widely held view that current hatchery practices are contributing to the decline of wild stocks and jeopardizing their recovery. It shares the widely held skepticism that those practices can be improved if hatchery management continues at is present scale.

It makes its hatchery position clear: If the agencies running those programs cannot or will not improve those practices, then the programs should be closed. If improvement of those programs means lowered production schedules, and that impinges on some commercial or recreational fishing opportunity, then that price should be paid to recover at-risk stocks, just as other prices will have to be paid on other fronts. Wild fish recovery will not come free or painlessly. The fish have been forced to accommodate us for obviously too long; if we want them to recover, we may have to accommodate them for awhile. The question is in what we value most.

When you feel your self-interest threatened, it is easier to challenge someone's motives or imagine some "hidden agenda." That saves you the trouble of having to listen to or intelligently debate their argument, to examine the evidence, or indeed, your own motives.

I like Washington Trout because I believe in its mission. And yes, it signs my paycheck. My job is to advocate that mission. Once again, I encourage anyone sincerely interested in learning about that mission, and all the work WT undergoes to achieve it, to visit the WT website (www.washingtontrout.org). Examine all of the research, restoration/preservation, and advocacy WT is engaged in. Decide for yourself if the long-term interests of wild fish are compatible with your interests.

Ramon Vanden Brulle, Communications Director
Washington Trout
PO Box 402
Duvall, WA 98019
www.washingtontrout.org

ramon, i personaly want to see wild fish recovered and i`m sure everyone else here does to, but, after reading your lawsuit, where are the studys on the hatcherys in question, can you post it ?, how many wild fish are being eaten by hatchery fish on each of these rivers ?, what in your expert opinion is the correct amount of smolts that can be released and not have any effects on the wild fish ?, can the size of the smolts be reduced to have lesser effects ?, other than closing a hatchery, how should they be operated ?

Ramon your arguments are well stated and somewhat convincing. The real problem with your arguments is your methodology. Your agenda is fixated on "wild" fish. Like a free range chicken is better than a pen raised chicken. Only wild fish matter ...Ends of story.

There are a myriad of causes in your far left world that must be forced down everyone else's throat because you think you are so right and the majority of folks are so wrong. We must be forced to your way of thinking by extreme measures. It isn't that you are FOR something as much as it is that you are AGAINST so much. You don't like the president and 70% of the populace does and that pisses you off so bad because YOU are right and the 70% crowd is uninformed and WRONG. So you pitch a tent in the middle of the road to make your point. You pound a spike in a tree to hopefully injure a logger who might try to cut down a tree. You sue. And then you try to disguise your true intentions with window dressing..."Come to the WT website if you don't believe me....you'll see the light..." BULL
You aren't going to win the hearts and minds of the majority if you say "Screw those farmers!" "Our wild fish need the water more than their crops do!" Shut their water off or WT will sue the pants off you.

Well Ramon, I wish WT would go back to looking at the gill nets and the culverts and the siltation of the streams etc etc...stop demonizing and stop suing. Extremism will drive a wedge in an otherwise willing group of supporters.

Im also curious about how many smolts the herring seiners kill. Or how many wild steelhead the gillnetters kill. the list could go on and on, so lets just blame the hatcheries.

THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THAT UP RAMON!

Now I know what WT. is all about.

I'm not joinin.
I'm not contributing.
I'm not signing any petitions with their name on them.
I'm not participating in anything that might add credibility to their (agenda).

I don't think WDFW, should be sued.

I think the funds could be used for better things.

Unlike some, I do trust WDFW. I think they make some mistakes but in the long run I think they do what they think is proper, and I think they have the sportfishermans, welfare in the forefront of any program they undertake, and do the best for us that funds and laws allow.

I would like to see an organization that figures out a way to enhance, enforement of the rules, that are inplace now... over limit..illegal tactics...destruction of habitat...etc. etc.

Maybe, something along the lines of crimestoppers, or block watch... or something that gives us an avenue to help out in some way other than trying to get ahold of a warden who is spread way to thin as it is.

The posts on this board go a long way in the right direction, but about all I hear about is the fact that the gamie never showed or there was no answer when we did call.

Hell, maybe we could get one to post on here just what we should do if we observe an infraction and what they need from us to help them do their job.

We need people at the launches checking catches, on the rivers, on the piers, at the planing commision.

We need to be represented at the environmental department. I can't rebuild my dock or boathouse, but you can log up to the shore or fertilize your golfcourse.

Who checks to see if the septic systems along the shores are functioning properly?

WDFW needs more workers and more HELP.

We need a lobby that works for the sportsfisherman.

We all need to figure out who to E-mail with our message!

Our representatives biggest personal goal is to be re-elected, it doesn't matter if DEMO. or REP. if they think they will lose enough votes, by not doing our calling, or gain enough by listening, they will respond!

It's just as easy to E-mail one of them as it is to post on here.

Start with the district and move up, city,
county, state, fed. It doesn't matter if your registered voter or old enough to drive, send em all one and tell them to get with the fisherman or you will vote for somebody who will.

Do you think the PEOPLE who belong to PETA are any more passionate about their agenda than you are? I'll bet there are way more fisherman than there are members of PETA or just about any other special interest group.

We need to be HEARD!

Ranting on here is PREACHIN to the CHOIR!

Get off the dime!

Tell it to somebody that needs to hear it!



herm

( btw.... I do)

Herm

you make some excellent points. WDFW is changing for the better. The WDFW commission appointed by gov Locke is more to blame for disastrous policy than the agency. WT should sue Gov Locke and his commission of commercial harvest puppets, not WDFW. In fact they should take him prisoner and put him in trout jail...make him share a cell with Curt Smitch, his fishing CZAR...geeeez what a pair to draw to.