Parker/Divers, I have to disagree with you guys on this one.

I can't believe that you would both think that "Gill nets are one of the most selective types of fishery techniques/methods out there". The only thing that a "gill net" is capable of selecting is the "minimum size" of its catch! They do not select the specie, be it wild/hatchery, or endangered. The guy at the other end of the net is person who makes that decision!

How many species do you think have been almost totally eliminated because of this "most selective techniques/method"? Better yet, let me give you an example, that I will challenge the net lovers to counter debate! During the Cowlitz River Relicensing period (6years) the region 5 (Vanccuver) people in WDFW were faced with some hard decisions to make.

Because NMFS had proposed listing the lower Columbia winter-run steelhead as an endangered specie, WDFW was forced to make a decision that actually sacrificed the possibility of any recovering of the Cowlitz early run winter steelhead! Here's how it worked; The Cowlitz is one of, if not the number one producer of coho for the Columbia River Gill net fishery.

If WDFW was to continue their Columbia River "coho gill net fishery", something had to give with the conflict between the early returning Cowlitz River winter run steelhead and coho!

Guess who lost? You can not have a Restoration/Recover program going on at the same time that you are running a non- selective gill net fishery that will take both steelhead and coho! Since coho and steelhead are pretty much the same size, the nets gets them all.

Historically 50% of the Cowlitz native steelhead returned from mid-November thru-February. Accordingly, this just also happens to be the peak return timing for Cowlitz coho. WDFW made the harvest decision to forego any possible chance for the recovery of the early run Cowlitz steelhead for the sake of continuing the Columbia River coho gill net fishery. That's the reason why WDFW drummed up the "questionable genetics" results that were used to justify the elimination of the early run Cowlitz steelhead program.

For well over 30 years the WDFW used numerous mixed stocks of steelhead from all over the state as their brood stocks. Since the dams blocked all natural production, there was nothing but these mixed hatchery stocks to continue the Cowlitz runs for 30 years!

All run timings were mixed with all stocks, and no stocks were allowed to spawn in there natural habitat to maintain there true genetics. But amazingly somehow when the genetic tests were being secretly performed, WDFW somehow found that the genetics of the "late" returning Cowlitz Steelhead (late March-May) were still in tack! Also equally amazingly was that WDFW had no previous genetic proof to support the fact that what they had supposedly claimed to have found were actually the genetics from the original late winter Cowlitz steelhead stock!

Shortly after the genetic report was published, the key person who wrote and published it died, so the real story may never be truly known. The fact is, if gill nets were really selective, we would still be enjoying an early run of Cowlitz River winter steelhead. If you think that you can prove otherwise. . . go for it!

So much for those so-called "scientific reports"!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Gillnets are selective for size. It doesn't get any more selective than that.

You are confusing management issues with selectivity. They are not one in the same. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Who's the one that's confused???

Selective by size. . . right! Selective by species. . . Hell no!

If gill netting is so damn selective, why then are all those sturgeon and steelhead being caught in the gill netters "incidental catch" every year.

Hummmm. . . . .maybe that's why the gill netters are allowed their own special "incidental catch" when sport fishers are not! It sure sounds like a very selective fishing method when you have to have an "incidental catch" attached to justify its use!

Selective . . . who's kidding who???


Cowlitzfisherman

Selectivity at the species level is a management issue, not a gillnet issue. Only management allows the hows/whens/wheres of a fishery. The gillnet just selects for what you design it to select for, or are *allowed* to select for.

Got back and re-read my original statements. I still read AuntyM's signature and still laugh at the Oxymoron.

Parker,

Most of the time I think that you are a pretty smart young guy! But sometimes older guys have seen just a little bit more BS then the younger ones have! I also know that you have a degree in biology and that is good.

Biology will not justify, or will it support the miss-use of the current gill net fishery! I know that you do not support the "gill netters", but what you say may mislead some others to think otherwise.

The Gill Nets are designed to "catch" a verity of marketable fish! The misnomer of a selective net fishery was intently designed to make the showing that just single species of fish are caught.. As you know, in reality, they are designed to catch the "best market sized" fish and not just one single specie.

The "management" can (and does) decide the when/ and the where's, but Gill Netting is still a stupid way to justify the management of any fishery or species. True, gill netting is the most effective way used to "harvest" any and all fish. But the undisputed problem is that GILL NETS do (and history backs this up) catches anything that can't go through the size of the net mess!

So tell me again, just how effective and selective gill nets are!

Certainly, we are having a "generation gap" on this conversation!

99% of time you are right on when it comes to the biology of issues of fish. But when it comes to management issues, techniques, and gill nets. . . we disagree!

Cowlitzfisherman

Cowlitz fisherman/ Aunty M

You can take the word “Selective” as to what you understand it but as it pertains to a fisheries, Parker is correct.

Gill Nets Are Selective:

•The times that nets can be in the water.
•The size of the mesh openings of the netting.
•The length of the net.
•The location of the nets.
•The depth of the net in the water.
•The Material of the Net.

Given the Alternative to other methods Gill nets are Selective.


“Since most fish will bite a hook, it is hard to be selective with this gear. But anglers and commercial fishermen both can make their hooks more selective by using knowledge of fish behavior”.

We can argue till the cows come home but, you have your understanding and I have mine. This issue had nothing to do with being a Net lover rather the term “Selective fishing and how it pertains to Gill Nets”.

All tools can be used effectively and correctly but it is up to the individual/group.


Quote
“Hummmm. . . Maybe that's why the gill netters are allowed their own special "incidental catch" when sport fishers are not!”

Yes, sports fishing does have a by catch ratio. Every time you go fishing for Steelhead and you catch a Salmon or White Fish, etc… that is your By Catch.


Originally posted by AuntyM:

“I would say WDFW wouldn't be testing these other methods if there wasn't a problem. Here is the link to WDFW's Selective Fishing page.”


No Aunty, WDFW would never do anything like that. There agency is so efficient there never looking into solving any of there own problems.

WDFW had seen this being effective in other fisheries, mainly Alaska and some Atlantic Fleets.


I am sure we can sit here and drag this through the mud too but I am sick of typing and have other things to do this week.

Again this was about the term “Selective” not net lovers.

I am sure we can also turn it into a snagging / lining and any other volatile issue.

I much rather talk then type so if you feel you need to continue you can call me at my office on Monday. (800) 935-6464 Ext. 147 other wise I will enjoy the rest of my week off and type less.

Thanks for the semantics lesson . Nets are , indeed, selective just as my 300 Winchester Magnum can be. The gill nets just selectively catch too many fish and selectively catch alot of wild ones. During the Columbia River spring Chinook gill net season last year I think 29,000 wild steelhead were estimated to have been caught. Things selectively changed this season.

When commeercial fishermen point out that their nets are the most selective type of fishery they usually also point out that they feed the world, too.

Grandpa

It looks like you have been around long enough to read between the lines about those "selective" nets! There will always be the guys that for some unknown reason will defend the use of gill netting, be it for their selectivity, feeding the world, or for the welfare of the economy.

They (the net defenders) can say and write whatever they choose to, but most members of this board fully understand the history of gill nets and there indiscriminate taking of unintended species. They truly are effective for harvesting fish that travel in large schools just as shot guns are effective for shooting birds in flocks! In fact, that is a perfect comparison; when all the birds are the same species (like in quail hunting) and you shoot into the covey, and you may kill as many as 6 or 7 quail with a single shot! But what happens when other birds are mixed in the same flock?

Just like gill nets, you get them all because the BB (just like a net) doesn't know the difference!

"Selective". . . board members can figure that out one own their own!

Cowlitzfisherman

Ok, this is getting out of hand. A lot of you missed the simple oxymoron I was pointing out.

I do not support gill nets. I wasn't bring my personal feelings or beliefs in to this conversation. Never have, never will.

You all just ASSUMED I'm some sort of pro gill-net, pro commercial fishery freak. You know what happens when you ASS-U-ME?

I was just pointing out the oxymoron of a signature. I still think it's funny. It's still an oxymoron.

By the way CFM, I do NOT have a degree in biology.

However, I DO have U of W degree in..... Fisheries. <GASP>


I'm ending this conversation, but if you still want to persist at this, feel free to stop by my office here at the UW School of Aquatic & Fishery Sciences and I'll loan you my selectivity and fishery techniques book.

Parker,

That's exactly why I said ". . .I know that you do not support the "gill netters", but what you say may mislead some others to think otherwise."

I was just debating an issue! Please do not take any offence from what I was saying about the gill netters.

Cowlitzfiisherman