Fishstick, I support the harvesting of hathcery fish. If flossing is required to catch fish than so be it. I never said I support snagging. The entertainment aspect? Pandemonium. Have a look some time.

Lunch time just found the crux of this problem..

These fish will bite!! it's doesn't take flossing to catch them!!!
I fish the cowlits in the summer and bring fish charging to the surface from 8 feet of water to smash a fly.. They are aggressive and will bite. Flossing them is wrong and illegal. if flossing them is the only way you can catch them well do something different..

This mentality is exactly why I think terminal fishery locations such as blue creek and the meat hole on the Lewisshould be closed to fishing fishing simply because so legit fishing actually occurs there.. Actually i shouldn't say that about blue creek because i never fish there so I don't know. However I think any fishery where most fish are snagged should be closed and if the legit fishermen are willing to tolerate snaggers in their midst the closure is their own fault..

Untolerated bad behavior goes away. tolerated bad behavior becomes common place and soon everyone begins acting badly..

Rob Allen, good points. But why close them? It does give people a chance to catch fish. Not every one has a boat or pritvate access to these rivers. Hell they might not even know where to go. They just want to fish. So they pick up fishing and hunting lies, which tells them the barrier is hot. So they go. and watch every one hook up but themselves. All they really want is to catch a fish. For many, the only fish for the year. Do you think they care if they flossed/snagged that recycled fish? NO. Do I? NO. If people don't like seeing this type of behavior (fishing), then don't go to these areas. Out of sight, out of mind.

Another point, it doesn't affect my fishing, and it doesn't limit the number of fish I might catch. The last thing I would do is stand in a line to fish. When I do fish the Cow, I usally stop at the end of the day just to watch the people fishing, flossing, snagging, or maybe just enjoying themselves. In my opinion its all good.

RockLizard, If you are fishing to fill you limit, your doing it for all the wrong reason. Stop fishing, save your money. Go to the grocery store and buy the fish. Logistically speaking that is.

Fishstick, I would like to "re-learn" what fishing is. Maybe you could elaborate for me. Better yet, I will open up a book and read, if I can.

Fishing, 1: the sport or business of catching fish 2: a place for catching fish

There you have it, straight from webster's new collegiate dictionary. Is that the wrong book?

Well said Rocklizard... It's about ethincs... which I'm working on every time out...

Cuttie, with your new found lining skills I'm sure you'll do well this season on the Skoke. At least hopefully better than when I saw you out there last season...

The great thing about these "non-biting" terminal hatchery fish is that yes they will bite. They love good eggs and will greedily take them when not harrassed by gangs of Liners/Snaggers...

Where in my post did I say I fish for my limit or for food? Please re-read. I was implying that most of these "flossers" or what I and the State of Washington call snagers, are only concerned with filling there card or getting there fish for the BBQ.
Yes hatchery fish should be harvested but you should do it within limits of the law.
Also, thats a nice definition of fishing, try using it when the gammie is writing your ticket for snaging. The only definition they go by is the one stated in the regs book....not authored by Webster

RL

RL, this is getting to be fun. And thats all it is. Right?

I re-read your post, and it still reads, "With the logic stated above why not just chuck a stick of dynamite in blue creek and harvest your limit, after all those fish are there to be caught..."

And, I will not assume that you are implying that I am a snagger when you said, "Also, thats a nice definition of fishing, try using it when the gammie is writing your ticket for snaging."

Tell you what, the next time I hit the cow, If I have an open seat it will be yours for the taking. At the end of the day we'll pull out and spend a few minutse people watching. First, we can laugh at the guy who is fishing at the launch. You know the one who is appauled that we disturbed his water for using the launch. As we drive out we can observe the guys rigging their new rods, Yeah, the rods that still have the plastic on their cork. I will think to myself, good for them, there fishing.

To sum it up, there will always be people that don't abide by the law. There is not a whole lot I can do about it. It is not worth my energy to be overly concerned about their ethics. I just worry about my own.

Hnt/Fsh,

When you're on the bank, you're fishing from a fixed position. When your lead makes contact with the bottom, your corky/bait gets in line with the lead as it goes downstream. This is the typical driftfishing technique. Sometimes a longer leader is needed to get your presentation away from the lead, but there's really no need for a leader longer than 4 or 5 feet.

The flossing technique is different. You cast out that long-ass leader, and when your lead makes contact with the bottom, you start reeling in line so you sweep that long leader across the bottom.....and if fish are stacked in there, you're going to hook one whether they're biting or not.

When you sidedrift from a boat the boat stays in motion, so the long leader combined with the moving boat gives the corky/bait a gliding, natural drift. It's a completely different presentation than you get from the bank, and most of the top guides who sidedrift use 6ft +/- leaders.

I just can't fathom the reason for using a 10 foot leader from the bank aside from it's effectiveness for flossing. Of course, you don't need a 10 foot leader to floss on a smaller river, either. It's the cast, wait, reel in slowly and steadily, and set the hook if the line comes tight presentation that identifies the flosser. Some guys are really good at it, but I never found much sport in it myself.

new regs for washington coho this year ur bait has to moving in the water! no more letting it sit to snag the fish when they swim by. as far as the comment about fish and game not doing their jobs i think that we all need to take a look at how many officers their are to enforce all the waterways ie. rivers,lakes, streams etc... instead of badmouthing try putting ur vote to work instead of ur mouth. ur either a part of the problem or the solution.

I'm trying to understand the pro-flossing stance. Hooking a fish in the ass is unacceptable, but hooking it in the side of the face is OK? So if a guy is chucking spark plugs with treble hooks and he snags one, I mean, flosses one in the face then that's ok, right?
The autolite wielding snagger has no intention of getting the fish to bite and tries to hook them anywhere on the fish's body. The flosser, on the other hand, has no intention of getting the fish to bite and tries to hook them near the mouth. Flossing sounds like snagging to me and to the state.

If flossing floats your boat than go for it! As long as the hatchery gets there qouta, and as long as there hatchery fish your flossing who should care about that besides some P.E.T.A members. Fish dont fight after you blow them up with dynamite and thats no fun at all unless your some kinda weirdo!

I would love for someone to show me how they catch fish "ethically" in the skok when there is 20 to 70 people standing in the water right above the fish. For that matter how about the Quillecene!

I guess you could call me a right wing wacko for my views. Hatchery fish just dont rate, I really can care less how they are caught, whatever bust your nut.
True Native fish on the other hand I will be the first person to report your ass for snagging.

Bill W

My intent was not to badmouth game officers but that we need more of them #2 that they should have more discression to issue citations
and 3 as on the Cowlitz they need to get out of their trucks and go down and look at what people are doing. On the Cow they typically just drive through the parking lots looking for the yellow access stickers.

I have not been checked by a WDFW officer in the last 16 years! There are flagrant snagg fisheries in Washington that the state is doing nothing about..That is an extremely bad senario!! If they aren't willing to enforce snagging laws they should shut down the fishery...

i HAVE FISHED THE COW FOR 10 YEARS IN A ROW. BANK AND SHORE. i WAS AT THE POINT THE DAY BEFORE THE SLIDE. i USE AS LONG OF A LEADER AS POSSIBLE. THE TOP GUIDES ON THE RIVER ALWAYS ASK ME FOR THE REPORT ON THE STRECK i AM FISHING. WHEN THEY ARE TAKING TWO TRIPS A DAY, i USUALLY SEE THEM AT THE LAUNCH TO CHAT BEFORE THE NEXT TRIP. IF YOU WANT MORE FISH IN THE MOUTH, GO THE LONGER LEADER=MORE NATURAL DRIFT. THE FISH BITE AND TURN WHILE THE LEADER IS STRAIGHT BEHIND THE LEAD. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE SIZE OF THE ROCKS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE COW AT BLUE CREEK? THE LEAD ON THE TOP SIDE WITH THE TINY CORKIE/EGGS MAYBE ON THE OTHER=FISH ON

I resent the fact that some of you people are labeling me as a snagger. Truthfully, it's getting me pretty fired up. As many people on this board can attest, I AM a sportsman. I have a true passion for fishing and I am also a pretty darn good fisherman. Do I release nates? Absolutely....Do I clean up my trash? Surely... Do I educate rookie fisherman? All the time.... The only river in which I employ this tactic is the Cow. Heck, I don't think me using a 6 foot leader is overkill. I never said "I" was the one using the 10 footer. Watch the guides freedrifting during the summer @ Blue Creek. Every leader is at least 5 feet. I've caught many fish with long leader legitametely "inside" the mouth. If you go back to the original question I simply asked on what other rivers is this technique used. This wasn't supposed to become one of those venting posts. Come on guys....It was a simple question. On what other rivers do you see guys using such techniques?

Hey Trailrat! I think I did get my fish on the Skok that day. However, it was pretty slow. You were'nt knocking em' dead either big guy.....

You guys are just to much sometimes!

Fishstick:

What make you think that people who prefer "flossing" is not "sport" fishing to them?


Lunch Time:

You say that; "FromCtoT you make a valid point. All of those hatcheriy fish are there for people to catch. You pay for them with your licencses."

If your logic is true, please explain how that works then on the Cowlitz, or any other river system that has "mitigated" fish runs. On the Cowlitz the WDFW pays almost NOTHING for our fish! Both the salmon, trout and steelhead hatcheries are funded completely by Tacoma Power for the mitigation of the "lost" of fish that were caused from lost of "upriver" production of the Cowlitz (dams). Except for a few dollars that WDFW spends on a few net pen projects, its Tacoma who is paying for all the hatchery fish!

RockLizard:
You say; "Lining/flossing is legal in other states but not in Washington per the definition in the regs" What page did you say that you had read that "linning/flossing" was not legal? How in the world do you think that WDFW, or for that matter, anyone else could possibly prove that the fish that you had just caught in the mouth did not get hooked by its own choice? If WDFW could possibly prove or enforce such a rule or law they would have a regulation that would "limit" the length of a "leader"! The judges would still be laughing at that one! I can just see it now. . . judge asked the witness (the fish) did you take that hook "voluntarily" in your mouth, or were you force to do it?


Rob Allen:
That's a good one too!
You said "This mentality is exactly why I think terminal fishery locations such as blue creek and the meat hole on the Lewis should be closed to fishing fishing simply because so legit fishing actually occurs there?" Can you please explain how you can "close" a hole for fishing but at the same time it remains open for "legit fishing"?

bill w:

You say;" new regs for washington coho this year ur bait has to moving in the water! no more letting it sit to snag the fish when they swim by." What page was that on again? Most snagger's do exactly was you have say not to do!


micropterus101


Cowlitzfisherman

You always come through when it counts Cowfisherman......

I always have loved this topic. First off, the laws are the laws. We may not agree with them, but they are still the LAW. No excuse saying "everyone else does it". There's a big difference between someone trying to actually fish and someone just tossing out and yanking on every bump. Yes, they do plant hatchery fish for us to catch. But they can be caught using standard gear. You just need to learn the tick of a rock vs. the tug of a fish. I've lined and snagged fish. But very rarely. If it's hooked outside the mouth, I release it. I'm not greedy and am not there to have to fill my punchcard. I had to do that when I was younger. Now, I fish for the fun of it. But saying the fish are their for us to catch, so catch by any means is crazy if you hook in the mouth. I understand some are uneducated and have no idea. They feel a yank and set back (and you'll see snagged fish or lined fish most of the time).

But, to each their own. It's all a personal thing. Each have their own ethics, and follow them. I'm not going to preach. This is an issue that stirs the pot. Not worth the time slamming guys too hard that line/snag.

Yes it seems like a silly definition Cowfisherman, but its not my words its the states, you know the law. Here it is, a direct quote on page 16 in the sportfishing rules pamphlet.

" Snagging- ATTEMPTING to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in the mouth."

Next page (17) under the heading "You may not", "Snag or attempt to snag fish."

With almost 12 years of active duty Air Force under my belt, one thing Ive learned is that rules/regulations need to be interpretted properly. It seems as though the flossing/snagging group refuses to do this.
Putting aside the law for a minute, yes I do think lining/flossing/snagging fish is unethical WHEN the fish being targeted actually are willing biters. An exception to this may be the paddle fish fishery in the midwest, they eat micro plankton.
How is flossing a fish at blue creek sporting? I thought the whole point was to "trick" the fish into thinking your bait/lure is food or a predator, not to smack them in the side of the face/belly/fins with your hook. Sure its fun to play a fish no matter were its hooked, but why intentionally try to foul hook it?

Cuttthroat to Steel,
The main reason I replied to this post is that I always enjoyed reading your posts and beleive you are an accomplished angler. Youve had a lot of good tips in the past and in no way do I doubt your angling skills. I do however, urge you to re-think your stance on flossing.

Lunch Time,

I fish Blue Creek from thank bank alot in the summer and also from my sled, so Ive already seen the things you pointed out. I have an older smokercraft (maroon stripe) with Yamaha 115 on the back, keep a look out for me and Id be glad to have beer with you and maybe share a laugh or too.

RL

Trying too explain to you why flossing hatchery fish is ok is like trying to tell a vegan eating meat is ok! Of course the vegan is going to say eating meat is unethical, but is it really? Some people dont have money flowing in and they can only make a limited # of trips so they get the fish however they can.Some people just enjoy having several fish on throughout the day. If you dont like it fine but dont force your views on others.

I know its the law but it was a law put into effect by a liberal and all liberal made laws should be repealed!

Flossing at blue creek off the bank? I dont think so. There is no need. The fish bite faster than you could floss them. But if somebody wants to waste there time have at it. Just dont set the hook on every fricking rock and chunk of wood. Line ripping through the water will spook them suckers faster than some guy wearing a hunting vest standing right above the fish. Fish feel like soft wood youll know when you hook one!

The keeping your line moving regulation is only on certain rivers other wise we would be hearing from the plunkers.

Last but not least I want to reiterate I dont floss anymore I have moved on to better methods that are actually legal.
But like I said before hatchery fish dont rate. wild fish will get you in trouble.

If your calling the game warden on people snagging hatchery fish your stupid! Especially if you care at all for the native fish. fisheries officers have to respond to every call. The more calls they get on hatchery fish = less time protecting native ones.