M101, the excuse about people who only get out once a year is a load of BS. Why lower the bar for them? Do you think that people who only hunt once a year should be allowed to shoot from their trucks and shine deer at night? After all, they only hunt once a year and want to take something home with them.
Before I report a snagger, how can I know if he's snagging natives or hatchery fish?

Food for thought!!!

RockLizard,

You are right! I do know something about our fishing laws. Lining/flossing is not going to get you a ticket that will stand up in the courtroom! Now why would I make such a statement?

Its simple, lets just use your own example; " Snagging- ATTEMPTING to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in the mouth."

Using your logic, how on earth do you think that a "game officer" or for that matter, any officer of the law, could possibly have the balls to stand before a judge and testify in a court of law, and maintain a "straight face" while attempting to convince the judge that he (the officer) "knows when" a fish has "voluntarily" took a hook in its mouth? I can just see it now!

Judge; did you see the fish take the hook into its mouth? Officer; well, no but I known that he didn't take it "voluntarily". Judge; ok how do you know that? Officer; because he was the only one using a long leader and was the only one catching fish. Judge; what does the length of the leader have to do with snagging a fish. Officer; because fish has to breathe by opening their mouths so that water can pass through and get them new oxygen. Judge; so how can you tell when a fish is biting and not just breathing. Is there any other place that a person can legally hook and land a fish other then in the mouth? Officer; no! Judge: why are you wasting my time, "case dismissed"!

Since logic tells most of us (that's you, me, and the judge/jury) that the only place that a fish can eat is from its mouth; and that the mouth is the only "legal" area that a fish may be hooked in; and indeed the fish had been hooked "in the mouth", what fishing law is being broken?

Think about this one; if you go 100% by what the WDFW regulation say, your bare hook could also be legally considered as a "Lure" (i.e. the Lake Washington Sockeye fishery)

Lure; as defined in the fishing regulations: "A manufactured article constructed of feathers, hair, wood, metal, glass, cork, leather, rubber, or plastic which does not use scent and/or flavoring to attract fish". The last time I checked, hooks were made from "metal". Even the use of a bare hook could be considered as legal under the definition stated under "Bait" in the regulations if scent is placed on it! So what's not legal?

You may have had 12 years of active duty in the Air Force under your belt, but it appears that you have not spent very much of that time in our court rooms!

People do a lot of things that may be considered to be "unethical" in someone else's mind, but that does not mean that it is illegal to do it! Like it or not, until there is a specific regulation or law that states what's the maximum "leader length" can be. . . flossing will remain to be a legal method of fishing!

Out of all of the members on this board, how many times have you ever heard of one of them being cited by a game warden for "lining/flossing?

Snagging. . . yes! Flossing . . . no!!

Well, that's my opinion about linning/flossing!

I don't do it, but if I chose to do it, I would dare any game warden to write me a citation for doing so!!


Cowlitzfisherman

You dont have to explain why flossing hatchery fish is ok, you just stated that the flossers scare away all the legit biters by ripping their line on every rock and stick there!
Thats why I disapprove of it, it puts all the biters on lock jaw. And Im not FORCING my belief on anyone, just letting you know where I stand, nothing more nothing less. If someone goes down to BC and starts flossing fish, so be it.

And please dont mention me and PETA , liberals or vegans in the same sentence again, I didnt say we should release these hatchery brats unharmed, I merely suggested they be caught by legal means. Whether its a liberal law or not is not relevent, its a law, pure and simple. Theres alot of laws I dont agree with, doesnt mean Im gonna break em anytime soon.

CFM,
I dont know how a game officer will prove snagging in court as defined in the regs, but you know what , I dont care how. Its not my job, its his/hers.
Your also right about me not spending much time in court. Thats because I try not to do things that will put me there. I dont know about you, but my schedule is full enough without taking time to go to court to explain if I snagged a fish or didnt.
Im still not buying your argument on flossing not being snagging. I will agee to disagree on this one. According to what IVe read (and BTW thats the WDFW's example not mine) I believe flossing to be snagging. I know this is not going to go away because of some BB thread and believe it or not, its not something Im very passionate about at all. If someone want to floss a fish to put it on the table than they can go all out for all I care. Im simply advising them that it COULD be interpreted as snagging.
You made some excellent points though, and I have enjoyed this thread, even though its an old subject.


RL

i just think it is funny that 85% of the bank anglers at the cow use long leaders. hey, whatever floats your boat. but why do the 85% jerk at the end of their drift on every cast? give me a frickin brake. i know at times there are fish STACKED in there, but you cant tell me that a fish picked up your lure on every cast. LEARN THE BITE! thats where all the damn snagging happens.

RockLizard

Please do think that I am picking on you! You appear to a pretty smart person and I was not trying to put you down, even those it has sounded that way. I have worked with the WDFW over the years, and some of that was involvement in the revising of the WDW/WDF RCW's when the agencies were joined at the hip (now WDFW)!

But remember, what you have said "(and BTW thats the WDFW's example not mine)" The truth is, that is "your" own interpolation, and not what courts may say.

Likewise, my opinions on game laws are not represented by actual case law, but they are represented by a long time effort, both by guiding, writing, working within, and verbal contact with many WDFW personal and staff. Believe me, they know who I am!

They do not always agree with what I may say, buy they do listen, and listen well!

I have spent many years debating fishery issues with the WDFW, both in the courts and as friends. They too understand their own short falls, and depend on us to help them out.

The flossing/ lining issue is nothing compared to the other "real" fishery issues that certainly are facing us.

Do not get discouraged when we take you to task!

Sport fishers need each other like fish need water!

Cowlitzfisherman

Some are making much ado about nothing.

Considering the pure mechanics of flossing, it can just as easily happen using a three foot leader as with a 10 foot. Imagine: the weight drifts 6 inches from along the side of a fish, leaving 18 inches of leader extending out capable of drifting right between the lips of Mr. Fishy. Did the fish take it voluntarily? Who knows. Will a fish take bait at the end of a 10 foot leader voluntarily? Absolutely.

The length of the leader is not what constitutes flossing, it's the intent the fisher-person has when using it.

Using the "long leader=flossing" algorithm would put a lot of flyfishers in a category I doubt they'd appreciate. Don't they pretty much make a cast quartering upstream allowing the fly to sink and then sweep downstream through a drift? By the definitions above, that sounds like flossing.

Sparkey, what do you think?

CFM,
Dont sweat it. I took none of your post as a personal attack, just a differnce of opinion. Ive read your posts in the past and have a great deal of respect for your experience, so your insight on this matter is taken seriously.
However, Im still sticking to my guns on this one .
The only thing I took as a personal attack is when micropt.. compared me to a vegan! A freakin vegan? Cmon you couldve compared me to Sadamm Hussein and I wouldve took less offense :p

goharley,
Good input on the subject, I was very careful not to include leader length in my post. Although it is more advantegous for a flosser to have a 10ft leader, its not a must. However, most of the folks at BC who use these leaders (from the bank) have the intention of flossing. I use a little longer leader when fishing there but it very rarely goes above four feet. As DanS stated above its the method of retrieve, not the equipment that makes it flossing.



RL

you wanna see real flossing, go to cancun for spring break.

Now THATS my kind of flossing

RL

CFM if the legit fishers won't eun the snaggers out ( by making it known that snagging won't be tolerated) , calling the cops.. They well it's their own damn fault and the fishery should close even to legit anglers.

I am personally just sick of snaggers and i want them off the rivers and i don't care how.. Better to have closed fisheries than fisheries full of snaggers.. In my opinion people should respect the resource or get the hell off the river.. If you need fish to eat that bad go get some power bait and hit the put ant take trout fisheries.. ahh hell with it i could ramble on for a lot longer but i think you get my point.. people who snag don't deserve to catch steelhead i'll leave it at that..

this is one of those topics that will never be resolved. Yes we dont want snaggers. and i dont agree its right either. but should we have a maximum leader length rule? its seems kinda out there to me.

had no idea there were so meny snaggers on this board. you all should just come to the mountains and huck TnT the way us hillbillys do it

Many of you are assuming that most everyone at Blue Creek with a leader longer than 3 feet is flossing. Simply not true. The terrain on the bottom (large boulders) calls for a longer leader (I use a 5-6 foot leader). I do not sweep and I do not jerk back on every cast as some will do. I jerk back when I feel a takedown and I prefer to have enough weight so I'm slowly moving downstream. I've landed a 100 fish or so at Blue Creek in the past 2 years and almost all have been hooked inside the mouth. All other steelhead rivers I use the standard 2-3 foot leader.

Cuttie, your right it was slow that day, a true liner would have had a heyday because they were stacked in there thick

To answer your original question, the lower Puyallup in early September, the hole behind the Fred Meyer is a liners paradise. Hey it's close to home too... Fish it from the North side of the river... Single 1/0 with a tuff of yarn will get 'er done...or so I've seen...

If you see me out there, smack me upside the head. I'll toss you a brew and you can give me some tips...

I think there are alot of funny instances here. I can tell who truly know how to flyfish and those who don't. If you're running a heavy sinktip or shooting head line with a leader, you're are so far from lining it's funny. Now, you talk about the guys who run floating lines with big SI's on 10' leaders with a heavily weighted fly. Then maybe, and that's an extreme maybe (depending on the person). But, most fly guys in most of our water conditions do a wetfly swing with some sort of sinktip with a short 3-4' leader on it. Similar to what most drift fisherman do, but lines are kept more in zone with belly in line (similar to a V formed with mainline of spin/cast rod to weight ticking bottom with leader going towards water surface with lure). With fly guys, you can tell them snagging/flossing just like bait/spin guys. Their motions are the same. But very narrow minded to group them (as MANY have done before). I've caught many fish running a fly rod, and have been strikes that have jolted my fly line like a strike on a standard rod. Set hook and "Fish on". It's the guys who set hook on every little move are guys who are in the "flossing" catagory.

I will say, I grew up fishing the Skok. I have taken TONS of fish legally with 20--30 guys fishing around me using red hooks with red yarn and sighting fish. BUT, one of the main reasons I stopped fishing there is because of same said guys. I could easily hook them legally, but trying to play fish while guys are casting over me made it hard to land the fish. I try to stick to rivers that don't pool fish up like some rivers. Probably one of the reasons I stay away from places like the Cow. I can still catch fish (when my body isn't injured) fishing not so stacked rivers as Cow/Skok, etc. Plus, I enjoy fishing, I like the peace involved with it. I always hated fishing down there, probably why my Dad would always fish the Toutle before the mountain blew, rarely ever went to the Cow.

But, I agree with Cowlitzfisherman. It would be hard to figure out who's flossing and who's not. I personally feel though, that a long leader is not needed unless you're running gin clear conditions. I've never had to use anything longer then 4' in most conditions. Heck, only time I've ever run leaders longer then 6' was fly fishing for trout. But was FAR from flossing. Running a 10'+leader/tippet on a floating line with a dry fly. Had to lengthen down to a very small tippet for weary trout. Now, fly guys running sinktips with leader/tippets longer then 4' I'd question. But maybe 90% I've seen have been well within those limits.

Flossing is going to be happening as long as there are salmon to catch. I have done it a time or 2 and might well do it again. An accomplished flosser will snag much fewer fish than a driftfisherman under the right conditions. I hate plunkers that snag, they don't even attempt hook fair. I much prefer a bighter, but when the water temps up, it can be hard to elicit a strike sometimes and I like to catch fish. Some of the best flossers out there use a flyrod. I watch it happen alot on smaller streams and the funny thing is that alot of them think those fish are biteing.. Its really funny to watch, espically when you tell them that the fish was flossed and their uppity attitude makes them blow their lid.
My dad is the best flosser I know he can catch sockeyes like no ones business, and he uses a flyrod with a sinking line and 4 ft of leader. (yes they are wild fish, but thats standard operation for sockeyes on the kenai tell me different and I tell you your full of s**t)
Rob,
when you say we should close these places that snagging occurs, within a couple of years no place would be open.. They move in packs directly related with the next article out of fishing and hunting lies. the only way to get rid of this crowd would be genetic clensing, which is even less popular than wanting to close hatcheries.
I love the Meat Hole boondobbing is a blast when the fish are in. Most of the guys there are pretty nice guys in my expirience and amazingly enough the barrier dam aint that bad if your nice to everyone, you can get drunk for free .

Sorry Rocklizard its the only analogy I could come with at the time.

Ok dammit, flossing doesnt invove yanking unless your a rookie. I flossed for many years, and I'll tell you this.

Flossing involves a long poll or long arms or both 10 pound test line max!. flossing involves as long as a leader you can safely cast without hooking somebody or yourself, for me that was 14 foot leaders. I didnt fish on the otherside of the barrier this year but I hear you guys were using two ounces,thats ridicules your defeating the whole idea of the long leader! a slip sinker rig 3/4s of an ounce is all you need when rigged with proper line test 10#. you want your rig drifting paralell through the river sweeping as much holding water as possible. Flossing involves size one or size two hooks tied back to back opposite each other with one or two lime green or pink corkies toothpicked the uppermost hook should have just enough yarn for scent (fish do hit this rig too!)

Cast this rig at about two thirty up river. Pull the slack out which will also straighten your leader. Once your drift rig is in front of you start to slowly move your rod up and down from the nine thirty position two the eleven o-clock position. Continue this through the end of your drift.

Never yank! your just chasing fish out of your drift into somebody elses an giving flossing a bad name! Just set the hook, your hooks should be sharp. As your slowly moving your rod up and down your hooks will grab the fish. You will feel it and know its a fish before you set the fricken hook! sometimes the fish are hooked in the pectorial fin but most are in the mouth. I have played hundreds of springer from the other side and most the snagged ones will take you around the corner. most the legit fish will take you half way down. they run acrossed the river and hold paralell to your position the quickest way to get them in is to run down river below there position and pull them towards you. If its in the snappers hold it up and show it of too the plunkers in the p-lot acrossed the way, holler back too them. There talkin alot of smack.

There I spilled my guts are you happy now.

Again, I dont floss anymore, But I dont care if others do.

Well williametteriveroutlaw, your Dad is the exception. I have a ton of guide friends up in AK and have alot of friends who live up there as well (most of the guide friends only live up there during summer, but a few own lodges up there year around). Not ONE flosses sockeye (and yes, most do floss them and they admit it) with a sinktip line and a short leader. So not sure what your Dad is doing. If that's the case, EVERYONE who uses a standard driftgear with 2-4' leaders are all snaggers. Your sinktip wetfly swing is exactly like a gear guys driftfishing with standard sized leaders. EVERY fly guy I know who purposely flosses (there is only one guy who I've heard of who could get a sockeye in Alaska to bite, Enos Bradner, and he proved it could be done) uses a long leader, strike indicator, floating line, and weighted fly. Of course there are guys who flyfish that floss. Just like there are gear guys who floss. I fish both ways, mostly in gear situations. But funny thing is it's funny how many of the same guys who call fly fisherman "elitists" are usually the same who call them flossers as well. So far all I've met and know they're in the 90 percentile. Why do you think jigs are so effective? Do you think they are a new creation? Um, no, they are a modification of a very effective fly used for salmon and steelhead. Been used WELL before jigs were used up here. But, are jig guys flossers too? They are using the EXACT same methods the so called "fly flossers" are too. SI's, leaders and weighted fly/jig on end. Too many close minded people out there. If it's against their norm it's "not ethical". I've found this in the flyfishing arena and the gear arena. Everyone is pointing their fingers at the other saying "tsk tsk". Like I said, I would only consider it flossing depending on the water conditions. Usually more gin clear conditions calls for longer leaders for spooky fish with smaller lures. I'd only come close to saying it's flossing if there's very low visibility and tossing these super long leaders. But to each their own. I don't preach about it. But funny how many will preach to me. And I've got it both ways. From gear guys while I'm fly fishing, and from fly fisherman when I'm gear fishing. Neither is better or more productive at times. It's funny how many guys have accused me of flossing summer fish with a fly rod. Well, only problem I use damp/dry flies for steelhead. Kind of hard to actually floss a fish if they willingly RISE to hit the fly. I guess if it makes one feel better if they're not catching fish, then so be it (especially in my situation, that fish literally is seen coming up after the fly, even with a damp fly).


Personally speaking, I think this thread should just be closed. Most threads like this are purely gripes waiting to happen. You get way too many fights brew over crap like this. And people wonder why in WA we can never get anything passed in our favor? We can't even get along with ourselves. Maybe if we actually TRIED to get along, we'd do some good.

Steelheader, I was refering to an elite few.. they spend a couple a grand to get a private spot on hatcherys stream (its rather small) and they sit down there a floss springers, all the time saying what a strong strike that was.
My dad actually runs a leader a bit longer than 4 ft I think its like 6 with a fast rate sink tip, you'll have to excuse me I am rather illiterate about flyfishing gear. In shallower water, like what cna be previlent on the kenai, it can be absolutely deadly, and yes he's one only a couple I have evern seen doing it on the Kenai. I grew up fishing that river, so whan I came down here and flossing was frowned upon, it was a weird thing for me to undersatnd.
I have no problem with flyfishing or flyfisheman, but I dislike there attitudes in many cases. I don't know what 90 th percentile of which you speak, and yes i fish Jigs, right next to guys flyfishing and we usually end up being even, or I end up a fish or 2 ahead. I fish Bobber and Jig (bait etc) almost exclusively, and it works well for me.

This thread is going nowhere, we as a society have to realize that we can only set values for ourselves and to attempt to force our own personal values on someonelse isn't going to be taken well. I apologize for my slander of flyfisherman in general, its just I have been arguing with a couple of them on other boards abotu everything from hatcheries to dams. Plus with what WT does, its givine me a cultural bias as Aunty m would say.