Heading down south for a camping trip with extended family. Since we will have a babysitter, my fish-starved spouse and I would like to dip a line. We will probably bring our canoe.

Anyone have any info about Riffe Lake coho, and how people fish them? Catch rates seem to be pretty high in this last week's Seattle Times report.

They were so thick yesterday I couldn't reel in my spinner with out catching a fish. I tried reeling as fast as I could and they still hit it.
Should be easy pickens for you.

Hey glowball

You said; "They were so thick yesterday I couldn't reel in my spinner with out catching a fish. I tried reeling as fast as I could and they still hit it. Should be easy pickens for you." Do you known that a very large majority of those coho "smolts" that everyone is catching are from "natural spawned" wild genetic stocks of coho?

Ever year, 10's of thousands of unmarked coho are taken above the dams for natural production. Did you known that those fish are the same genetic fish that the Cowlitz "wild fish" were? Each year, tens of thousands of unmarked coho fry and smolts pass through the Cowlitz Falls Dam into Riffe Lake and sometimes become land lock if they do not spill water. Does that make it "ok" of to catch these wild fish? I hear a lot of BS on this board about not taking, harming or killing the few wild fish that we have left in our state, so how does this work then?

Yep, now I will be hearing you say that they were all clipped! And yep, I will tell you BS!

Not trying to pick on you; just trying to show how we seem to have double standards when it comes to an unmarked fishery.

Think about it, and then give your reply. I really want to see how other fishermen can walk on both sides and not cross over the line!

As just one example; this is directly from a report from the most current Cowlitz Falls Fish Collection Facilities report dated May 16, 2003: "Daily smolt catches increased from an average of 1,086 smolts per day last week to an average of 4,025 smolts per day this week. The majority, 67.8% of the smolt catch was composed of coho smolts."

Almost 90% of these smolts are considered to be "wild" and unclipped under the endangered species Act! All wild unmarked coho have to be released on the Cowlitz and are captured at the Barrier Dam and released into the upper Cowlitz for natural production.

At best, the new trapping faculties have about a 45% rate of capture. That means that all you wild fish guys are killing a huge amount on native fish! They all end up in the Riffe Lake first, and Mayfield Lake secondly. Are fishermen sometimes "hypercritics" when it really comes to saving our "wild genetic" fish stocks . . . you tell me!

Those are the facts, so I will stand by them unit proven otherwise or wrong!!

Cowlitzfisherman

I'm not tryin to argue, just understand what you're saying cowlitzfisherman. Are you saying to not fish at all at riffe lake???

Sturza

No I am not saying that!

But all these people on our board that preach and say that they live to protect "genetic wild fish" better know what they are catching when they are fishing in Riffe or Mayfield Lake! There is no excuse for double standers! You either harvest or you don't!

I have stated the "facts" and I will defend what I have stated!

Cowlitzfisherman

CF,
Don't they plant Riffe and Mayfield for recreational fishery of landlocked coho? If they do are all those fish planted clipped? I can understand your concern but it seems like you attacked instead of educate like you usually do. This fishery has been around for eons so if we now have that many smolts then some real time education needs to take place .

Jim

First of all nice try calling me out ol timer! I never said I won't keep a wild fish. These fish are planted. At least that's what Wade the bioligist that works up there said. He also said that they don't spawn. So what difference would it make whether it was wild or not. Not sure the exact numbers, but he said something like 600,000 get planted in riffe and alder every year.

Man you got me laughing cfm. You are pretty pathetic of late. You used to post some very interesting stuff, but as of late you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. You must need a vacation. Maybe go to Alaska and spend a week or two.

Cmon now. I asked a simple question. I feel like I walked into the middle of a family feud.

So, is the lake planted? Are the coho being caught juveniles or landlocked adults?

You can spare me all the crap... if you can't answer a straight-forward question, then just don't answer. I'd rather not start one of those threads where people get all "holier than thou". I get enough of that up here in PT.

sea_claire:

You asked; "So, is the lake planted? Are the coho being caught juveniles or landlocked adults?
Your answers are: Yes some of the coho in the lake are planted; and yes they are also wild smolts!


glowball

I don't know what this "Wade" person is smoking, buy it must be something like our "local weed"! I would have hoped that you would have done your homework better before you made your unfounded reply.

Fact: Last year over 85,000 Adult coho reached the Barrier Dam.

Fact: 90% of those coho were taken above the dams for "natural production".

Fact: no less then 5000 of those adult coho were unmarked "wild coho".

Fact: Coho successfully have spawned above the dams for hundreds of years.

Fact: Last year over 5,025 wild fry were caught at the Cowlitz Falls traps.

Fact: Last year over 54,645 coho smolts were caught at the Cowlitz Falls traps.

Fact: The Cowlitz Falls reservoir experiences as many as 10 or more draw-downs a year. When the reservoir is drawn is drawn down, as many as 75% or more of the fish that have been swept down into Cowlitz Falls Reservoir get swept into Riffle Lake during the draw downs! Since the collection facilities currently only has about 45% collection ability for coho, that simply means that hundreds of thousands of fry (many are wild) and smolts are being dumped into Riffe lake each and every year.

Did this Mr. "Wade" forget to tell you that? I knew a "Wade" who once used to work up there, and if it is the same Wade, he is no biologist! He was just a worker who trucked fish down river and does old jobs (i.e. hauling smolts to the Barrier Dam). It is true that coho do not "successfully spawn" in Riffle Lake, but you are forgetting about the thousands of adults that spawn above Riffle Lake. These adults that are now spawning above Riffle Lake are now largely responsible for much of the natural production of coho in riffle Lake!

The "clip" on my shoulder comes from people like you who takes some uninformed persons "second hand information" and then tries to BS his way out when he has gotten called to the table! You guys kill me sometimes; for some crazy reason you think that ever guy who does creel checks, drive a fish truck, or checks a stream, is a fish "biologist".

You really need to ask them, and you may really get surprised! I don't known how much more "informative" a guy can be!

So glowball, next time do your home better, and then come back and we will see who the one in need of a vacation is. (jk)

Oh yea, did I forget to tell you that I also have been a member of the "Cowlitz Falls Fishery Technical Committee" (FTC) for over 8 years now. . . you known, the same one that Salmo G is on!

Cowlitzfisherman



Cowlitzfisherman

Cfm,
Now i think that you are going a little overboard. Didn't you infact say that some 55% of the fish are spilled into riffe and become land locked? Well than what is the problem with catching them? Will they spawn? Will they "jump" the dam and somehow make it to the ocean? The coho in the cowlitz are quite plentiful and even as of last year they had landlocked salmon status after December 31 i believe. I think that catching the coho smolt stocked or spawned in riffe will really have no bearing in the "lively hood" of the run! Correct?

So Mr Professor explain to me what the big deal is about catching these non spawning LANDLOCKED fish. Once they fall through the dam they aren't gonna make it back up above Scanewa to spawn.

I got the info from a friend of mine about Wade, so I apolagize about possible bad info. I've not talked to him. I've already heard all that stuff you posted about the smolts and what not so apparently some of the informating I got was true.

If you have such a big problem with it complain to the fish and game. I have two kids that I can listen to if I want to hear some crying.

By the way next time you reply take a few deep breaths. I think you were so worked up(not sure why) that you were having a little trouble with your typing. Just a little advice.

Glow

Guys try decaf! The guy just wanted a little information. So how come nobody bothered telling the guy to stop in at Fish Country and talk to Frank.

glowball

Sorry for "jumping" on you about your reply, but I have personally spent over 10 years working on the recovery efforts of the Upper Cowlitz rivers system. Not only are "wild coho" being caught and harvested in Riffe, but also our stocks of chinook and steelhead. The WDFW has known for many years that people have been harvesting stocks of Cowlitz fish that were supposed to be part of a "recovery program". But as usual, WDFW mangers (not the field people) couldn't find their way out of a wet paper bag even if it was torn!

When the recovery program was first started, WDFW held public meeting at Morton. Fish farmers, the guides association, and, a senator, mayors, and RV park owners were also there. Besides about 200 other locals, one of WDFW project biologist who originally developed the "land locked" fishery was also there to support the people who wanted to kill the up river recovery program. This was about 8 years ago. After WDFW saw how well organized the opposing groups were, they had to cover their butts and come up with a "new" recovery program that would still allow the locals to fish for coho in Riffe Lake. Lets not forget, that two large powers companies (Tacoma and Lewis County PUD (LCPUD) ) were also there to defend their investments.

The LCPUD was trying to maintain the coho fishery in Riffe Lake so that they would not be required to spend 10's of millions of dollars more on the fish collection facilities that the BPA had built in conjunction with a Settlement Agreement with the FOC that required them (the BPA) to install fish collection and screenings facilities at the new project.

Tacoma also knew that their old operating license was about to expire, and that once the people who had been coming there for the past 25 years had found out that they would no longer be able to continue to camp & fish at Tacoma's fancy campgrounds like they have done in the past, and catch all of those thousands of catchable size coho (8-14 inches), that the local businesses, people, and all the other user groups would become outraged.

People, who are outraged, are bad news for power companies who are seeking a new operating license! Huge bucks were spent by Tacoma and the PUD to make sure that this "land locked" coho fishery would continue until well after Tacoma had received their new operating license. Tacoma is spending big bucks right now so that they will not be force into installing new massive fish screens and collections facilities at the Mossyrock (Riffe) Reservoir.

Under the ESA, Tacoma will be forced to catch the majority of the fish that are currently being washed and passed down into Riffe Lake. You got to ask yourself; other then the big bucks and all the back door politics that have been going on between WDFW and Tacoma for 20 + years now, why does WDFW now have the "double standards" between Riffe Lake and the Cowlitz Falls Reservoir?

People want me to give them facts! Ok, here's one that begs the debate! Fact: WDFW knows for a fact that 10's of thousand of unmarked fry and smolts that are being naturally raised for the "Recovery Program" of the upper Cowlitz are currently ending up in Riffe Lake! The WDFW have restricted the fishery in the Cowlitz Falls Reservoir (Lake Scanewa) to "protect the smolts " that are being nailed by the lake fishery (lots of smolts have been killed). They have even posted a "special" regulation for Lake Scanewa (Cowlitz Falls Reservoir) that says; "The daily limit is six salmon, but no more than 2 adults. All wild chinook and wild coho must be released. The salmon minimum size is eight inches. Anglers are reminded that Lake Scanewa remains closed for the taking of trout and other game fish until June 1. Beginning June 1, anglers should consult the 2003/2004 Fishing in Washington Rules pamphlet for the permanent rules on Lake Scanewa". The reason for having this special clouser from June 1-Feb.29, was to protect all of the wild natural produced smolts that are in the reservoir at that time.

WDFG used to use the "Merwin" (sp) type traps in Riffe when they first started running the Mossyrock reservoir, and caught hundreds of thousands of native smolts in them each year. Grant it, it was not the millions that the hatcheries now produce, but it was a significant amount. Now, those same fish that are being protected in Lake Scanewa are now being allowed to be caught and killed in the Riffe Lake fishery. You got to ask your self why? If they are good enough to protect in Lake Scanewa, then they are good enough to protect in Riffe!

Have I made my point yet?

For those of you that do not understand or known, fish do pass through Riffe Lake. They do go though the turbines and they do pass over the dams during spill evens! Why do you think that there is such a wonderful fishery at the face of the Mossyrock dam?

Many of the same fish that people are currently catching at Riffe Lake are the same exact fish that were being protected at Lake Scanewa. I hope I have explained this better then what I had did last night. I get up every morning at 4:00 am and I go to bed by 8:00 pm. When I stay up late, like last night, I can get really irritated easily. So again, I am sorry for jumping on you like I did, but I just want people to understand the difference between fact and hearsay!

Now does anyone have any more questions about the coho, chinook, or trout stocks that are being harvested in Riffe Lake?

Personally, I would much ratter be catching the adults that should have been produced from their natural production rather then the babies that were produced from their production.

Cowlitzfisherman

Thanks for the info CFM. Very interesting. I'm going to have to start attending some of these meetings so I know what's really going on.
Glow

Sea-claire,

Coho fishing can be very good this time of year at Riffe reservoir. I did it a couple years ago, and it was a lot of fun.

CFM took the path of a grouch with regard to some confusing regulatory disparities within the Cowlitz basin. I may ask his wife to make sure he gets to bed on time from now on, so that he might behave more charitably among his BB friends.

WDFW has stocked Riffe with surplus hatchery coho fry for years, and it made for a good land-locked recreational fishery. Since the reintroduction of salmon and steelhead above Cowlitz Falls Dam, and since Cowlitz Falls only collects about half the downstream migrating smolts, the rest end up in Riffe. As a result, it generally isn't necessary to stock Riffe with fish from the hatchery, since all the fish that Cowlitz Falls misses end up there.

WDFW regulations try to prevent the harvest of smolts in the upper Cowlitz and Scanewa for the obvious reason that those juvenile fish have a crack at making it to the ocean and becoming returning adult salmon. Unfortunately, Riffe has no passage facilities yet, and few fish successfully outmigrate from it. So Riffe becomes sort of a "Dead Sea" in migratory fish terms, but fish can rear successfully there. And it makes sense to allow the recreational fishery for them there since they have extremely little chance of outmigration and zero chance of becoming spawners.

Of course it seems weird. ESA listed chinook and steelhead do end up getting flushed into Riffe. One might ask what good it does to extend any ESA protection to them once they end up in Riffe. Actually, some of the chinook have been surprising little buggers. They are being flushed into Riffe during the spring, and are growing there during the summer, and then in August and September, some of them find the penstock openings at 200' of depth and pass through the turbines, and some of them survived and showed up at the Mayfield fish counting house.

In the next few years, Tacoma will likely be adding new fish passage facilities to Cowlitz Falls, Riffe, and or Mossyrock. Perhaps WDFW will have to further modify the fishing regulations to protect smolts that have a realistic chance of making a successful migration. If so, WDFW will likely keep Riffe stocked with something to take advantage of its rearing potential and to provide recreational fishing. It could be different, and it could result in an overall increase in fishing opportunity in the Cowlitz basin. I think it's safe to expect that as the reintroduction continues, there will be as many new questions as answers.

But it's cool! The upper Cowlitz is getting more fish than it has in decades, and many of them are naturally reproducing wild salmon and steelhead. Not your average fish and hydropower story.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Interesting discussion. I'm not all that familiar with the Riffe Lk. fishery. I have seen folks catch small Silvers at the fishing bridge and I would not consider them smolts based on the fact that they are pretty good sized.

Roughly 14-20" and one to two pounds. To me that is a very big "smolt".

If I need to be enlightened pls do so.

Thanx

Thanks for the info. CFM-- had your message had a tone more similar to Salmo G., your points probably would have been better communicated.

But I appreciate all the input. We always try to target fisheries with the least native fish impact--especially listed fish.

So, if the fish are 1-2 pounds, do people fish them with spinners, buzz bombs, or with river rigs (like jigs)? I'm thinking that spinners probably would catch a lot more of the small ones. Thoughts?

Salmo,

That's exactly why we elected you to be in charge of so many of our committees, you just have more finesse then me! Martha would be proud of you!

You know me as well as anyone, I always tell it the way that I see it. Sometims I am wrong, but no one ever misunderstands me. Hummm...... maybe that's why I never got to be in charge!!!

I'll keep working on my people skills, but don't get your hopes up to high.

Anyway, thanks Salmo for filling in all of the small holes that I may have missed!

Corkyking:

Two points come to my mind about those 14-20 inchers. Depending on the time of the year that you were there, the coho that you saw could have been either coho or chinook jacks. WDFW release a lot of coho and chinook jacks into Riffe during the late fall and early winter month. WDFW used to also releases spring chinook jacks into Riffe. Hell for that matter, WDFW releases everything into Riffe . . . It's their trash can for everything that ESA restricts or prohibits them from releasing into the Cowlitz!

With that being said I have seen pictures of at the local store in Mossyrock of guys holding up either chinook or coho that weight in at 18 lbs. The pictures were not that good because they were taken by the store with a cheap Polaroid camera.

From the pictures I saw, you couldn't really say for sure if it was a coho or chinook. My guess was it was a chinook. But on the other side of the picture, some of the coho that are being caught in Riffe Lake do have small developed eggs in them. This has been verified in a few studies (who's name I can't recall) and by personal communication with one of Tacoma's workers who worked on the original fish traps when the dams started up.

No one to the best of my knowledge has ever found that any of these "genies" have ever successfully spawned, but that may be because there may not be any males that have developed enough sperm sack to do their thing!

sea_claire
I have never fished for those little buggers (that's Salmo's favorite term for them), but I do have a few friends that catch a lot of them! They like using a worm and corn combo, sand shrimp, shrimp, maggots, or small spinners like wedding bands behind a couple flashers. Some guys use little spoons like "Dick-nites" and do well. I hope this helps you out.

Cowlitzfisherman

We caught most of them on a spinner but did get a few on a wooly bugger with the fly rod.

Cfm
The fish I'm referring to are up by the dam below scanewa. They are averaging 13" or so and most of them were females with eggs. What are fish this size doing going upriver when I keep hearing that they should be going down from you. This time of year is not exactly what I would call spawning season for silvers or kings. Would appreciate a reply to set me straight on what I'm catching. I've been under the impression that those fish had no intention of ever going to sea.

Glow

glowball

Maybe Salmo or some one else knows the answer to your question better then I do. Here is what I do know!

For some reason, WDFW never has cleared that one up, possibly because it has the potential to effect production at the Cowlitz hatcheries. To the best of my knowledge, Coho do not have the same biological instinct to return to the ocean that many steelhead do, so there is really no reason for them to migrate down river once they have went through the "smolting" stage process in their life cycle.

I do not know how many times a coho can smolt before it looses that ability to so. I do know that coho do not all smolt at the same time, but I do believe that once their body has been through that process (smolting), that the smolting is over for them. I could be wrong, so I will wait for Salmo, Parker, or one of our other bb experts to tell that story. Not all smolts smolt in the first or second year of the lives. But I believe that it is extremely rare for much smolting to occur their 3 year.

I could be wrong, so again, I will wait for Salmo, Parker or one of our other experts to tell that story too.

I do known that their was a lot of BS going on from Tacoma, LCPUD and the BPA when the Cowlitz Falls Dam was being built about the need for upstream passage for resident trout and those little coho genies that were in Riffe. But when 6-10 million dollars was at steak, and neither coho nor resident trout were listed at time, guess who won out? The Friends of the Cowlitz (FOC) had a scientist by the named of Pat Trouter (sp) do a genetic study that proved that the resident trout above Riffe Lake and the sea run trout (steelhead) were one and the same. WDFW got all shook up and tried to say that the genetic testing method that he had used was not the correct one, nor was it as good as their method was.

So WDFW stayed with their preferred method and kissed off Trouter's method of testing in self protection (don't rock the boat thing). So you can see that over the years, lots of BS has been done by both the power companies and WDFW. I believe that WDFW has done it to protect their jobs and funding that was assured by their running of the 2 largest salmon and trout hatcheries in the U.S.

Well, did I confuse you more or did I help answer your questions?

Cowlitzfisherman

Glowball,

The Riffe coho that are 12" or longer are last year's coho smolts, not this years'. They are no longer trying to migrate downstream. They seem to have accepted Riffe as their "ocean" much the same as Great Lakes salmon do. This is the wrong time of year for them to be on a spawning migration. The fact that they are cruising around the "inlet" to Riffe appears to be a feeding migration, not a spawning one. Similar behavior occurs with some land-locked Atlantic salmon in large lake systems with large inlet and outlet rivers, as part of a feeding migration pattern. I don't know what they are feeding on, maybe it's the sub-yearling chinook that are still dizzy from their swim through the Cowlitz Falls turbines. That might explain the success of Dick Nites and other small sliver spoons.

What I have yet to learn is if these land-locked coho actually become sexually mature in the fall and if they are capable of successful spawning. It's had to dedicate time to research that, as it would be the same time I'm downriver trying to catch real sea-run cutts and silvers. Let's see, fly rod or jig rod? See what CFM has done to me? Life just keeps getting more complicated.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Thanks for the input fellas. I have a better idea of whats going down now.
Glow