Since this is such a huge issue, I am going to post this same question on other fishing boards!

Isn't it about time for the tribes in Washington State to "walk the talk"?
Here's an idea that can help mend many a hard feelings between the white man and the Indian.

Since the Boldt decision, the tribes have been maximizing the benefits from the federal government and taking every advantage possible, such as getting grants to do habitat recovery work, etc., etc. on their Reservation lands

Well wouldn't it be noble statement from our Northwest American Indian Tribes to donate just one day worth of all of their "combined casino profits" to a special fish habitat recovery fund? Since the tribes have no problem in being entitled to harvesting 50% of the states harvestable fish, wouldn't it be noble for the tribes to actually give something back to nature instead of just taking it from her? We hear how much these fish mean to them culturally, but we never see them doing anything outside of their reservation to improve the fish's habitat.

Think of the money that could be generated in just one single 24 hour period? How many of you fishermen would go out for just one night of gambling and spend $50 or $100 bucks if you knew that "profit" from same money would good directly back into a special fish habitat restoration fund? Just think of the PR that it would give to the tribes. The tribes would not only benefit directly from the PR, they would also see the benefits from their 50% share of the returning harvestable fish.

I see lots of non profit groups each year that raise money for just such projects, but I do not ever recall seeing one single tribe make such an effort.

The funds could be co managed so that both tribal and non tribal habitat work could both receive the benefit.

Finally, I have been told that not all Casinos' on Tribal land are being run by the tribes. Some have private companies running them and all the financial gain is in jobs for tribe members. Never the less it would benefit them in PR far more then the one day in finical rewards could possibly do

So what do you think, could it be done?

Cowlitzfisherman

CF:

Call the nearest tribal community service and responsible citizenship (CSRC) office and leave a message for them to call you back about your idea. Be sure to tell them that when they call back to ask for MR. BLUE..because that is the color you will turn holding your breath waiting.

grandpa

Let's give them a chance to reply!

You may be right, but they should be given the opportunity to reply. Bite your lip, and let's see if they have the gonads to take on such a challenge!


Cowlitzfisherman

OK Mr. Blue~~~

Let's take it one step further CFM, let's have the forest industries do the same, and the pulp and paper industries, and the land developers, and the home builders, and the ...well you get the idea. Every one of these industries have PR flacks that proclaim loudly that these groups are helping the environment, fish runs, etc. What do you think? I think you have a new relative Mr. Blue!

Left unchecked the aforementioned group would no doubt cut down every tree, pollute every stream and pave over every piece of dirt. It is in that same spirit that I say that if the tribes are left unchallenged they, too , will catch every fish, every crab, every geoduck and every animal in sight. They will grab every dollar they can in any way they can and their people will still be living in poverty and ignorance. Just go down to Tahollah and see for yourself.

Grandpa - my point exactly. Thank you.

Cut CFM some slack, his idea could be a reality with some positive minded marketing aimed directly to the Indian Tribes that run the very profitable casinos.
I think it is about time to try and align ourselves (sport fishing) with the tribes and work in harmony with them to increase the habitat and hatcheries needed to sustain and increase the harvestable Salmon and Steelhead in Washington. It is very obvious that the (non-Indian) commercial fisheries aren’t even close to helping in this problem.

the puyallup tribe has been steping up to the plate for people pf tacoma. big sponcers of the 4th of july shows,and others like it thru out the year..also the just gave Mary Bridge Childerns Hosp. just sort of 500k dollors for the new hospital wing! when they gave that check up the tribal elder said something like "whats good for this communite is good for the Puyallup tribe"

Thanks RiverLiver!

It appears that most of you have just skipped over the wording that I had used! That word was "noble". Everyone already knows that the timber companies, pulp and paper industries, land developers, and the home builders, could care less, and never have had any concern about doing anything "noble" for the fish. They do everything for money and that’s it!

But the tribes have told us that the white mans ways are wrong and that they "respect the land and habitat" that support the ceremonial fish.

You got to remember that we are talking about a race of people who have for hundreds of years now, have become depended on the hand outs from the white man to better there race. After they were conquered by the white man, we gave them land to live on (reservations). Then we made them even more dependent on the white man for there own survival. Now they must depend on the white mans money to bring back their habitat that support their ceremonial beliefs that fish are part of their ancestral culture.

So what's wrong with encouraging them to do something noble for their own race and for the fish? One would think that the tribes would want to be an independent nation that did not depend on the white mans money to restore there culture. Maybe people would once again believe that the tribes are still a noble race if they could once again do something noble, and not ask the the white man for the money to do it! It's easy to take the white mans money and then complain about how bad the white man has managed the lands, but wouldn't it be noble of the tribes to show the white man that they truly do care about the fish and not just the money and "walk the talk"!

Anyway, they do have an opportunity now to put fish ahead of profit, and show the white man that they do really care about the fish.

Cowlitzfisherman

I was hoping that the Native Americans would begin to lose interest in the salmon fishing as they started to make so much money on the casinos. But that's not a bad idea

I was hoping that too Jeff, but it dosen't look like that will happen anytime soon. I for this idea, let's make it happen.

I was doing some research on the history of the Northwest Indians at this web site:
http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/hstaa432/index.html#intro
and I found this:

"Specifically, the Boldt decision guaranteed Indians the right to catch one-half of the commercial salmon harvest every year (even though Indians in western Washington amounted to no more than 2% of the total population). With the precipitous decline of runs of salmon, this decision put pressure on Indians and non-Indians to co-operate with one another to protect the remaining salmon fisheries of western Washington"

One half of the "commercial salmon harvest"! Does this mean that if we did not have a "commercial harvest", that the tribes would not be entitled to one half of the fish?

What do you think it means?

Cowlitzfisherman

Thought you might be interested to know that the tribes have been very involved in advocating for either modifying the four Snake River dams, or removing them; whatever it takes to restore the runs.

Such an action is absolutely huge and is the most significant habitat improvement that could feasibly be done in the Columbia basin.

History in the last three decades has shown that 50% of nothing is not nothing when it comes to the tribes. period.

GaryK

If the tribes represented more then just 2% of the populace in Washington State, that just might mean something! It will take an act of congress to achieve that one!

Cowlitzfisherman

In your 50% scenario you forgot the ceremonial and sustinance fisheries. Ceremonial means whenever a tribal member has a birthday they can fish etc....The rest is an open ended fish for food thing...I don't think anyone really knows what the take really is.

CFM, this thread reminds me of a couple earlier threads that you initiated. I usually enjoy your well thought out, well researched posts, and I know that you truly care about your beloved Cowlitz. However, after reading this thread and reading the same thread over on Steelheader.net, I really suspect your motives - this feels like you are trying to take the Boldt decision, the history of Indian/White Man interaction and put a spin on it that is interesting intellectually but of no practical value whatsoever. If your intent was to actually have the Indians contribute casino profits to the restoration of the resource then I would ask you to read all the posts you have made here and on the other board and ask yourself, "If I were Indian would I listen and act on CFM's idea?" Maybe I'm not good enough or smart enough - I would probably tell you to stick it where the sun don't shine. So, what was your intention with this post? Did you, as I suspect, decide to have a little fun and see who would rise to the bait? If so, you got me but I would suggest that you turn your well developed analytical method and try something else.

Eddie

You may not know it, but I did asked other board members to review this post before I had posted it so that people like you would not take offense on it. Apparently you and "gooose" (the guy on the other fishing board) must both have some Indian blood in your veins.

Why else would both of you get so damn excited about one persons suggestion that the Indian Casino's donate one days of their profits to a special Habitat fund?

Both of you guys have gotten your hair up way to high about this issue, so it must be personal. All that I had originally said concerning the boldt decision was this;" Since the Boldt decision, the tribes have been maximizing the benefits from the federal government and taking every advantage possible, such as getting grants to do habitat recovery work, etc., etc. on their Reservation lands"

That is a fact! So what is your guy's problem with me stating that fact? It's not bashing the tribes, its just plain stating what has happen. If I am wrong then show me!

Since you keep bringing up the boldt decision, it would indicate to most that you may fear that if enough people get concerned again, that it just might end up back in the courts again. That's how it is appearing to me anyway!

Well if that happens, so be it! It's not going to change my life one way or the other, so I really don't care what happens! Saying that, it will not stop me nor will it stop others from discussing that decision in some detail from time to time on this board unless Bob wants to edit such topics.

If you don't like my thread-don't read it! Quite making your negative comments to it, or just let it lay! Or better yet, why don't you figure out a better alternative to create funding for our fish habitat and post it so that I can sit on my duff and play the critic roll like you and gooose (the guy on the other board) have done so well. As lease I have made an effort to get people interested in doing something to restoring our fish habitat and gotten them to think. It may not be the way you would do it, or your choice, but at lease I took the step to get something going!

Now you should know what "my intentions" were for making this post

So now eddie, its time for you to walk the talk or let it go!

There was no "baiting" intended on this thread, It was just one idea to raise some much needed money for our fishes habitat!

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM, I do not intend to get into a pi**ing contest with you on this. I may have Indian blood in me, I don't really know and it has absolutely no bearing on my thoughts and decisions. Having said that, I will engage in a rather deplorable tactic of quoting you without putting the full context around it. Here are some of your statements that sets a negative tone to having any Indian tribe that owns a casino decide to follow up with your suggestion in a positive way.

"You got to remember that we are talking about a race of people who have for hundreds of years now, have become depended on the hand outs from the white man to better there race. After they were conquered by the white man, we gave them land to live on (reservations). Then we made them even more dependent on the white man for there own survival. Now they must depend on the white mans money to bring back their habitat that support their ceremonial beliefs that fish are part of their ancestral culture."

There was also the lively debate with Letty regarding the definition of conquest.

My point is that I read these things not as fact or fiction but as a tone in trying to motivate someone to do something. My issue and the reason that I said you were trying to get folks to rise to the bait is that I see your tone as inflammatory. With that said, I'm very uncertain that you could get a tribe to agree to your suggested donation of profits.

I've seen tribes working on habitat a long ways from the rez.

Most of them realize that the salmon rely on more habitat than just what runs through the rez.

Personally I've seen the tribes doing far more work than the state.

Eddie, eddie, eddie,

You say;" I will engage in a rather deplorable tactic of quoting you without putting the full context around it."

Da, I wonder why you would do something like that! Maybe you couldn't make your point any other way, so maybe that is why you have refused to show all the rest of the context!

Maybe you may not look so good… you think? So it’s a no brainier for those that have no idea what you are talking about! Why would you take a quote from another board and try to use it here to defend your weak position, unless your position was weak from the beginning. You're now degraded yourself into taking text from another reply, from another board, and trying to use it defend your weak position on this board.

Eddie, you need to let all of our board members know that you using text from another board, from another reply, to make your point! That's unethical in my book! Maybe my mind is failing, but did I try to use your statements on this post from a different board to better my image on this board? If so, will you please post them so that we can all see and understand where you are going?

Apparently it's not been a good day for you eddie!

I am all ears, so bring it on!

Finally, I sure don't see any tribes posting their ideas on how we can fund a fish habitat restoration fund… do you?

Lets get together soon and a beer or two and move on!

[Edit] Peace eddie!

Cowlitzfisherman

CFM, Fair point and at least I had the decency to say my tactic was not completely above board. However, it was also stated somewhat tongue in cheek as I have noticed that you will take quotes out of context in your posts. Just to clear up any confusion, the issue of Letty and the definition of the word conquer came from Steelheader.net.

In terms of your last statement about the tribes not posting their ideas, well, that was exacly my point. I don't believe that the "tone" of your suggestion (and your subsequent comments here and at Steelheader.net) was such that it would encourage a reply. And that was my point. Which you decided to ignore in your reply. So, what up? Was your original suggestion and subsequent defense designed to elicit a response from the tribes or was it designed to entertain and cause guys like me to rise to the bait? If the former, do you think you have used the most effective method to get a response. I'm trying to determine your motivation. If it's to get the tribes to pay for habitat enhancement, great. I would respectfully submit there are better ways to do it.

Beer??? - I'm already too fat! A martini maybe

Eddie

I think we are closer in minds than you may think! I defended my position when I was under siege, I had to defend my position, and unfortunately, people do what they must! Take no personal offense.

Originally, I thought that the tribes would respond, but that did not happen. On the other site, some tribal members did make some response, but they just wanted to defend the tribe's position.

Did I answer your question now, or do you need more?

Cowlitzfisherman

From what I understand The Puyallup, Nisqually, and Muckelshoot all have a fisheries program. They have hatcheries, biologists, test fisheries, etc. Just those three tribes alone cover the entire south sounds largest salmon runs. They get alot of money from federal grants but I am sure some also comes from the tribes annual budgets too. And with all the casinos profits, those budgets are bigger. So maybe they already do give one days profit to the fish. I still think all nets need to be banned. My idea was give all tribal members free fishing licenses for food use. Allow them to catch the fish in a traditional manner, spear, cedar bark nets, fish trap, dip nets etc, for their special occasions. That way they keep the heritage alive. The free licenses would be used just like the rest of us. The same would go for hunting. To make up the money from selling fish, allow unrestricted gambling. Think about it, 25 cents a pull or 25 cents a pound? Lastly every treaty I have read signed by the Feds and the Tribes states that the tribes cannot have alcohol on their rez and that they can only trade with the US, no other countries. They can be viewed at this link.
http://www.nwifc.org/tribes/

This has unfortunately degenerated into personal attacks....Attacks on indians and poor Eddie. Why would a member of any tribe offer something they are not reasonably motivated to do?They hold all the cards to coin a little pun. We need to come to them with suggestions and not challenges and ultimatums. Offer some constructive suggestions and not just an in-your-face challenge. The bottom line of this is that this thread is a hollow challenge based on distain for indians and resentment for the Boldt decision which unfortunately is the federal law of the land.

You go Grandpa !!! I think I'm out of here on this one. CFM - we will have to agree to disagree on the proper way to convince and motivate. BTW - my favorite river is Salmon River out on the Peninsula. Great Hatchery steelhead produced by the Quinault tribe.

Boy grandpa

It's sure nice to know that we can always count on your wisdom! Especially when you come running in and make such a wise closing statement!

First You say;

And then you said;

And after that you said;

And then you said;

But the best one of them all was when you came back and had the gonads to say this:

grandpa yourr some kind of guy!

Sorry eddie, but grandpa went just a little to far with his last post!


Cowlitzfishereman

Whats with this do or say something to make them want to do it crap??? Does the Gov't do that for ordinary joe? Maybe if they would go about it differently, or say it "just right", then I would gladly give up 40% of my paycheck, or maybe then I would not mind giving so much to the SS fund that I will not ever see, or happily pay that $10.00 launch fee at Mukilteo............
Since when does anyone try to dance around anything with us ordinary folks who have no ethnic excuse to be pampered and "talked into" doing what is right????
Wish I could get some of that kind of respect....

I personally would settle just for being able to use the launches free, as the tribes do.......
As far as your PC term "Native American" Eddie, I am as native american as they come. That means I was born here and not in another country. Lest we forget that even the Indians migrated here at one time, challenged and fought whomever was in the way for the resources, and battled constantly for the best area's to live and hunt.

Hmmmmmm..... I wonder why the tribes are so against "Kennewick Man" study, especially after the discovery that he had anglo bone structure and was over 9000 years old? Maybe the migrants from asia were not the first or only ones here at that time...... He also had an arrow head buried in his hip..... Maybe he lost the land that he had made claim on??

Just a thought....

MC

CFM

I oftentimes agree with what you say but I must say that you are treating this like a court of law or something. You dredge up all this "evidence" to support your side of the story and blast the hell out of people who disagree. Wake up man! This is an OPINION board...not a courtroom or a quiz show. Eddie has opinions as I do and you should take them for what they are..OPINIONS> I think you need a good flaming on this one

So here comes the flame thrower:

You usually make a good case for things relating to the Cowlitz which I know little about . On the issue of indian relations you just suck. If I were a member of a tribe I wouldn't give you the sweat off my cajones. Furthermore you should really look into some of the positive things that are already being done by the tribes. I am extremely critical of alot of the abuses with fisheries but I also am aware of things like the Sockeye fishery in Lake Washington which would simply not exist if it were not for efforts by the tribes. So I can blast the tribes when they are taking unfair advantage and still seek to work with them instead of intimidating them as you seem to be trying to do. MNaybe you think your post is a noble gesture but I see it as a sham.

Get out your fire extinguisher.

That's really funny grandpa!

Looks to me like you got caught in your own little mouse trap and now you're crying for help for someone to let you out!

Bad things sometimes happen to mice… or rats!

A flame from you can sometime be a great honor!

Cowlitzfisherman

Wow, some thick animosity around these parts!

Regarding Indians impacting the Snake Dams, CFM said - "If the tribes represented more then just 2% of the populace in Washington State, that just might mean something!"

In reality what carries weight beyond population numbers is - TREATY RIGHTS.

I'll admit, I don't like gillnets. But with respect to Columbia basin and Snake River stocks, those treaties may be the Salmons' long-term insurance policy.

The courts have already ruled to the effect that - yes, there must be salmon in the river in order for the US to uphold its end of the treaty contract. Ergo, the government has to manage the Snake dams so that the stocks don't become extinct. If this can't be accomplished, than the Snake dams have to be removed or significantly modified.

That is a fact! So what is your guy's problem with me stating that fact?

So sayeth CFM

I think you have been watching too many old episodes of Dragnet ....

The bottom line is that the Boldt Decision is fact and treaty rights are fact....all the rest is
BULL****

the elwhas seem to be working pretty hard on getting rid of the dams on the elwha ....and i think treaty rights are gonna be a heck of a tool to beat on the snake river dams too....

Habitat restoration for most tribes is beginning with restoring and raising a decent standard of living for the members of the tribe. They aren't doing a very good job of that with all the cash some of the tribes are generating. Hopefully some of the money will help educate the people so in the future they can stop being so dependant and join the mainstream of society instead of being a separate "nation". The clout they have with the fishing related portions of their treaties is , in fact, having a huge impact on management of the fisheries in our state, especially in the Columbia river system. Without the threats the treaties bring with them, the dam operators would no doubt be spending next to nothing to mitigate the effects of the dams on salmon runs on the Columbia.

Good point about the Elwa dams. After hering about them for years, it was a great experience last month to stop by the lower one and take some before-removal pictures. I look forward to coming back in 2007 for the post-removal pictures.

grandpa

Some of you guys have been putting your own spin on this thread and insinuating that I am picking on the tribes because I made this challenge for the "casinos" to fork out a days profit for a special Habitat Fund.

Especially you grandpa with your catty remarks i.e;

grandpa

I had let you rant on and on about this issue, and haven't really gotten into your face because I knew you could paint yourself into the corner like you always seem to end up doing!

As an example, you rant on and say;

It looks like you may be catching a serious case of "foot in mouth disease" again grandpa! Before you open your mouth to remove your foot, let me compare what the real reality is compared to your misconceptions are about me and the tribes.

First off, I do work extremely close with the Indian Tribe in Lewis County. I am extremely close friends with the Cowlitz Indian Tribes, and many of their members and have personally had the Chair of the Tribe at my home no less then 6 times for meetings. How many times have you invited the chair of any tribes to attend meetings in your home? I'll bet you can count them on one hand and have 4 ½ fingers left over!

I have been invited to tribes new culture center off Spencer Road (the Mission) numerous times and have also been invited to lunch numerous times to meet with tribal members to discuss issues concerning the Cowlitz and its dams. I have met with the Chair and have personally walked together though the hills for miles trying to locate new routes for fish to bypass the Cowlitz Dams. If you think that I have a "problem" working out issues with "the tribes", I suggest that you contact the Chair of the Cowlitz Tribe and get his opinion. I suspect that you may be eating "crow pie" shortly after that meeting!

And just to put a little more crow pie on the table for your desert, I will also inform you that all of our legal filings on the Cowlitz are "jointly" filed with the Cowlitz Tribe. So shouldn't that tell you and the average guy that I don't have a problem communicating with the tribes or working out issues jointly?

Just because a person may suggest a new way to generate funding for habitat, doesn't mean that he is against the tribes!

Any finally, I will challenge both you and GaryK to show this board where I have not worked hand to hand with the tribes, especially on the Cowlitz.

So grandpa, please drop your crap about me not being able to work with tribes! I'll match my time and work with tribes against yours, anytime that you want to do it! Maybe you should learn a little more about a person before you start trying to put them down.


Cowlitzfisherman

This thread is starting to make me weary

Can't we all just get along?

CFM said -- "Any finally, I will challenge both you and GaryK to show this board where I have not worked hand to hand with the tribes, especially on the Cowlitz"

Perhaps I'm ignorant of the 'throw-down' culture on this board.

CFM, if you re-read what I posted, there is absolutely not a single word there about you personally and what you have or have not done, either on the Cowlitz or anywheres else.

GaryK

This is why I included you in my reply

You said;"

My message to you was that I also worked with the tribes to see that fish get over the dams and nothing else! I am very sorry if you took it some other way. Please except my apology.

Cowlitzfisherman

Beyond being a "noble gesture" its very do-able assuming our public "brain trust" in Olympia had the will.

State-Tribal compacts were established through the 1988 Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. Numerous states are now exploring ways to exploit this Act to help balance their state budgets through various “revenue sharing” deals.

Compacts established between tribes and states through the 1988 Gaming Regulatory Act vary widely. For example, Connecticut's Mashantucket Pequot tribe contributes 25% of their slot machine revenue to the state. The money from the two casinos there comprises 3% of the state's $13-billion annual budget. That’s $39-million according to my math. The deal in Connecticut is the Mashantucket Pequots get an exclusive on all gaming in the state in exchange for the slot revenue to the state coffers.

Helllooooo! Anybody home in Olympia????

I think the tibes should getinto prostitutes too..Hell the state could take a 25% cut of every trick....say $200 ? Give the tribes an exclusive on all prostitution AND gambling....Oh then we could allow topless indian bars with booze...Only ones in the state. Oh I forgot about the treaties of 1855 which forbid the indians from having alcohol and the treaties also made them give up slavery. So no booze or slaves allowed but fishing , gambling and prostitutes would be allright. Then we could designate 10% of our 25% cut of the prostitution to habitat restoration.

Grandpa

You got to start watching what you are eating!!


Cowlitzfisherman

Tough week being a capitalist.....I'll be fine Monday