should the owners of the kalama r.v. park be held liable for willfully taking in money from the people who intentially snag fish and are regulars to thier site who have been warned or fined by the g.w.. and please try not to change the subject (what is snagiing) we all know.
example: If you supply minors with alcahol?

That's kind of like asking; should a car rental service be responsible for paying your traffic tickets because they took your money to rent you the car; or a landlord should be responsible for you smoking pot in one of his apartments because you pay him rent for the apartment; or arresting a land owner because he charged you an entry fee and you poached a critter or take to many fish on his property!

It's just not going to happen unless it can be shown that the owner actually took part in the act itself. It's kind of like the store dealer who sells a person a gun or bullets and then someone wants him to go to jail because the guy he sold it to kills someone with the gun or bullets that he sold to him.

If it was legal to charge a fee for the service, you are not going to be able to hold someone liable for what the other person does on his own time unless he assisted him in the illegal act. Anyway, that's how I read the law.


Cowlitzfisherman

just a simple question cow. calm down a bit. but you know there are analogys from two sides

Bentpole

You say;" calm down a bit"

Why, who's excited? I just answered your question because no one else had replied to your post!

What did you want us to say? All I did was to give you a few examples of what you were asking us. When I get "excited", believe me, you will know it!

Cowlitzfisherman

thats as rediculous as sueing gun manufactures because the made the gun the criminal used

I wouldn't say the owners should be held liable but if snagging is a problem there ( and it definetly is) Fish and game should be able to tell them to stop letting people fish there..

Rob

Under what legal authority could Fish and game possibly do that?

Cowlitzfisherman

The owners of the park are there to make a living and should be able to get money from anyone that is willing to pay to be there!!! Let WDFW do the legal work! They have plenty of "vantage points" to watch people there!

The park owners know exactly whats going on. To top that off they charge people a tent site fee to fish there. At best its a little sleazy anyways, now that the snagging law has been implemented. But i do know they enforce the snagging there, a co-worker of mine got nailed for retention of foul hooked fish. The gamie was watching from the bushes using NVGs (night vision gogs). Im sure their planning a huge sweep of the area anyday, probably on the weekend. MHO

Think about who would pay that much to fish such a SLOW, DEEP corner hole?! Regular mouth hookin' fishermen would find a different place to fish!!

I don't think business owners generally have liability or responsibility to prevent crimes being committed on the property, unless some extra circumstance was shown. People fish legitimately from the campground most of the year - it's just in the fall, when the water is so low and clear, that the snagging seems to heat up.

Cowlitz i am sick enough of these scumbag total loser blakenty blank blanking snaggers that i feel the ends justifies the means.. get rid of them at all costs.. hell with it just cloes the effing river.. YES getting rid of snaggers is that important!!! They are the scum of the earth as bad or worse than any drug dealing pimp. Maybe some old west justice is in order just shoot them where they stand...

Ethically the owners are wrong !!!!!! Yes even I would love to off all snaggers but at the same time as a business man what is going on could be a little gold mine for them and is probably keeping the camp ground from going broke. I would say most legit fishermen would not let this happen on there property but the non fishermen wouldn't care less. The only problem is that if they don't snag there , then they'll just find another place to devastate. He is in quiet a predicament . Just a matter of ethics and money. The Duck

yep lunie bin for rob allen

Duck i have found that most times when money becomes involved ethics are the first thing to go..

OK maybe we shouldn't shoot them but it's a damn close call..

so..if you know someone is running a meth lab or killing people out of you're rental property and you do nothing about it that's ok?

I don't see where the owners of the property are responsible for what goes on there. They are allowed to charge a "trespass fee" because it is their land. The State charges day use fees at some parks. Nothing different.

BTW, slow deep corner holes are great for using eggs and bobbers. I caught many a fish out of the Deschutes near the old Brewery before a flood changed the hole 15 years ago.

Just head down there and bring a cell phone. Call the WDFW when you see someone snagging. Be proactive and prosecute the folks doing something bad. Don't punish the folks who might fish the same area legally just because a number of folks have figured how to snag in that area.

See CFM, we can agree.

Andy

I already knew that Andy, and that is why I said what I said!

Cowlitzfisherman

Folks - There is power in numbers!

If'n youse wants to gets rid u dem effen scumbag total loser blakenty blank blanking snaggers youse gotta gang bang em.

Just gets together wit 5-6 buds and roam the river banks til youse sees wunna dem effen scumbag total loser blakenty blank blanking snaggers and grabs em and takes em down.

Youse gotta wraps em reel tite in duck tape and then hauls em in.

That folks, is called a sit-a-sins arrest!

Do we have to ware those darn white sheets again too? Those little holes hurt me eyes!

Cowlitzfisherman

Nope! Just vests and waders, a nice oilskin hat and maybe a pretty kerchief around the neck.

But youse gotta learn to frown.

Anyone caught smillin' grinnin' or laughin'
Gets sent home. :p

believe it or not people are now responsible for some stuff that occurs on their property...thanks to the drug war if a property you own is a 'known drug house' they can fine you or seize the property....don't forget also that if someone gets drunk at a party at your house then drives off and kills someone you're gonna be held partly to blame and if that was a minor drinking you're in real deep ka ka...

BP-
I see what you're getting at, but not sure it would ever hold up in court. I think stiffer penalties when you're caught, including a loss of equipment used when snagging (car, drivers license, rod, etc..) would help. I know that for years as a kid the threat of losing my shotgun for an infraction on the Yakima reservation sure kept me accurate on my dove or quail count! I get frustrated watching it here too... its everywhere. The dungeness, the elwha, the hoko, it doesn't matter where you go.

jackiepoo., I think you just might have got yourself banned from this board. Good Luck. The duck

Jackie,
come on now dont sprinkle sugar on it... tell us how you really feel...

Like I said, you can mess around with what ever this and that but when it come to the Kalama and some yahoo talks about closing it because a state agency isn't doing what needs to be done then you're damn straight I'm getting on my horse and coming through blasting like Michael Douglas in Falling Down. Talk about closing down the Cowlitz and see what beautiful sentences come out of the choir. If I have to get kicked off for telling the god honest truth then sianora but to hell with sitting back and reading nonsense without a response reflecting my true honest emotions. What ever I am still disgusted with such a comment, I meant everything I said in the first post and youcan make the hook a skokomish indian tribe trebble.

wow

And that concludes our lesson on how to win friends and influence people.

Jackiepoo was merely restating my feelings, just in a less diplomatic fashion.

Good reply Dogfish!


Cowlitzfisherman

I wonder if there might be room here for a compromise. I agree that snaggers are pond scum and I agree that there is no reason to close a river that size just because of a few A holes.

In some remote watersheds of B.C. local fishing clubs have made and posted signs advising of bait bans or other restrictions. Naturally some “sportsman” blow holes in the signs and others burn them for firewood. But the clubs just make more and post them every year. I’m sure the signs help.

Maybe some local Kalama anglers could approach the landowner to see if he might let them post sign advising that snagging is illegal and that WDFD often has the area under surveillance.

I have heard from one of the WSP game boys that they are enforcing the law at the Kalama park and expect to do a booming business.

I think we need to let judges know that we expect maximum fines for snagging citations and encourage confiscation of all fishing gear and tackle associated with the offense.

A little covert video work might help to convince the judges and convict the snagger scum.

Try that at the Kalama campground and you just might get "leaded" to death. Im only partly kidding.

this thread was started just as a question not my opinion, so i would like to ty to the people that offered there concentrated thoughts and not dumbahss remarks.

In context, I've not fished on the Kalama for many years (live about as far south as you can be in Oregon without looking at the "Welcome to California sign on I-5).

But the signs sound like a good idea ... especially if they include a reference to the potential fine and that the property is regularly patrolled for violators.

Old (read that repitive) coment, but we 'Oregonians' still scratch our heads that game checking is not part of WSP's juristiction.

And the fellows/gals do a very good job of it. Call the Oregon Game dept about a violation and you'll be old and grey before you see 'someone' (a question of very few numbers). Call 911, and your cell phone won't be cold in your hand before a 'black and white' pulls up. These folks take this very seriously (sp?) ... and they have guns ... and lots of back up, if needed.

A 'snagging' ticket has a minimum fine of $300 .. and then it can go down hill for you from there. The Judge will shed a tear as he/she says: "See the Baylif."
fae

Well bent pole I am guessing you are referring to me as a dumb A** and would like to thank you for the compliment. Mr. Garcia thank you for editing my post I apreciate your censorship. It's good to hear that the game wardino's will be at work on on the kalama. I will be there saturday and sunday to see the immense progress of their labor. Finally closing the kalama would never happen, and to you highly eloquent and excellent problem solving thinkers who would like to see the river closed as a be all end all solution why don't you think about the wholistic picture of closing down a rescource that feeds more than just sport fishing like the livelyhoods of family's and businesses in the booming metropolis of kalama . It is very easy to write words on a screen and talk trash but I would like to see you all with such strong and God save the queen like feelings approach the individuals who would be effected by a closing of the kalama. And if snagging realy bothers you that much as to close a river why don't you go to the camp ground and tak to each and everyone you have such an immense problem with. Oh yeah and go up to the yuppie guy in his new orvis catalog special fishing the fly only water from the lower hatchery down through beginners and give all those guys snagging tickets. They are doing the same thing with their fly rods as the guys whipping drift gear into salmon are down below. My bet is fish and game will do a run through down below and ticket the heck out of camp kalama ( like they should) but they might want to also take the same initative with the holier than thou fly guys. Most of all have good times on such a beautiful river and if you see something happening that is wrong call em on it and don't count on the law to help out because they are usually on more important missions or are ignoring the issue. I love the hell out of that river and would take a sock in the eye any day for telling some yahoo to knock it off with their snagging. I've come close many times but always come out ok and with a point made across.