No no no... It's just that youre REPUBLICAN....

Pmartin, take to my new approach here... Don't argue with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

No implications intended...

Curtis

CAUTION - grandpa and Pmartin; the following contains fact. You may not want to read.

Timber - you don't have to be CIA, you only need to read. There is so much information coming out disspelling what we were told six months ago it's hard to keep up with sometimes. Just read.

I'll agree we need a man with courage, but that surely isn't Bush. We need someone with the courage to do the right thing. Make sound decisions based on the welfare of our nation. Not take the most powerful nation in the world and attack the weakest nation in the Middle East simply to make a point.

If Bush had real courage (moral along with integrity) he'd stand before the American people and admit he made a mistake. He'd go to the UN and work out a deal even if that meant relinquishing military command. He'd quit cowing to Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Courage is not what Bush has; it's pride. Pompous, self-serving pride. And that selfish pride is killing America.

Thus far we've spent nearly 200 Billion dollars in Iraq with nothing but flag-draped coffins and increasingly global anti-American sentiments to show for it.

Imagine how far that 200 Billion would have gone towards increasing security along our borders, putting people back to work, or saving our declining salmon runs.

We should have completely finished Afganistan (which we have proof were behind 9/ll, along with Saudi) before we even thought about Iraq.

How can Iraq POSSIBLY be called the weakest nation in the Middle East?

I thought you said there were facts in that post!

Curtis

Name a weaker one? Are they surrounded and contained by military might? Is the world imposing a no fly zone on them? Which country is weaker than what Iraq was at the time we invaded?

Iraqs military was a shell of what it was at the start of desert sheld. It never was rebuilt ofter desert storm. Nobody could or would sell him weapons .

One thing after reading this thread has me wondering. How many of the anti-war, anti-bush, anti-America preachers here would be singing the same tune. If those four planes had hit here locally,If they had friends and loved ones die, If they had seen the smoke for months, And had to smell the burning buildings and burning flesh of the people they loved for months? Im almost willing to bet that some may be singing a little differant tune.
There was a day in this country that some of what has been said here would have been concidered what a traditor to the country would say. Or the words of a coward at a time of war.
Buy the way all four of those planes had parts that I built on them and I hate the fact they were used to kill Americans.

It disgusts me that people find disagreeing with american foreign policy, better yet expressing that disgreement as somehow anti-american. There is NOTHING more american than excersising your rights, especially your right to dissent ....what IS anti-american and an INSULT to every man, woman and yes, child that has laid down their life for this country, is suggesting otherwise.

Please do not think that my concerns over the misrepresentations by the Bush admin. Somehow make me unamerican. I think that what Osama did was unspeakable and I am all for an all out effort to find him and his filthy terrorists. We should kill every last damn one of them. So why are we screwing around in Iraq, where there is not one shred of evidence of any link between Saddam and Bin Ladan?

Now we are in Iraq, we must stay and help rebuild what we destroyed. Apparently we must do so alone as our leader has aleinated many of out traditional allies. Tony Blair is currently fighting for his political life becasue he swallowed G.W. bull sh**.

Nothing is more Amercian than expressing our freedom of speech. Yes, there was a day. . . it was the time of McCarthy. God I hope we never go back there.

I can't remember the exact words, but none other than Teddy Roosevelt said we should never quit questioning the acts of our president. Was he a traitor too?

And?

That's why we're us, and they aren't. Sounds like some are in a big ol' hurry to be just like Iraq, China, etc. Why would you want to be anything like those countries?


Free speech doesn't protect the speech you like, it protects the speech you hate.

Predictable that the anti-this and anti-that whining would start.

If those planes had hit here, locally, I'd probably be even more vocal about the folly of being in Iraq. Iraq and 9/11 have absolutely nothing in common. Why can't you neocons see that? It's well documented by no less than three government agencies. The very same agencies you pay such high homage to!

The main issue with those opposing the Iraq war is that we're wasting valuable resources in the wrong place. We should still be concentrating our efforts in Afganistan and getting tough with Saudi.

Additionally, since the inception of the Bill of Rights, it has NEVER been considered traitorous to question the decisions and agenda of the administrating government, especially in a time of war. A coward is more likely to keep their mouth shut and let the government do whatever they feel like without question.

AuntyM:

We are in total agreement on the Patriot Act. How like politicians to mask the stealing our liberty with a fine sounding name like the Patriot Act.

Six Months ago I debated this subject to the best of my ability and now I can hold my head up and say, "I told you so." Remember any of the concerns debated at that time? How about U N inclusion-exclusion regarding Irag War? Or WMD and delivery system? Link between Ben Laden and Saddam? Isreali, Palistinian uneven handedness? Anyone remember the song "Bomb Irag"? It can be found in the archives in the Irag discussion threads. I think that song sums it up for me.


I was hesitant about posting on this thread because of the name calling and attacks that some resort to when they can't offer up real facts as GoHarley pointed out so well. "duh", hello! Anybody home?


Now I will expect a flaming from the Usual Suspects. You know who I am talking about.

From my point of view, this thread is relevant because if the American people are satisfied that there is sufficient evidence linking the Iraq war with terrorism based on what has been divulgded by the Bush Administration, there is no reason for him to either fess up that the truth was stretched or come out and tell us the link. He will just be re-elected.

I for one, would stand behind the president if he could demonstrate such a link. I am not a liberal who opposes war at any cost, I just don't care to be patronized. This one is too big to just pass off as protecting sources by not divulging the evidence.

Just one more thing, on "Meet the Press" Dick Cheney was asked , "considering you were once considered a deficit Hawk, shouldn't the tax cut be scaled back to pay for this war and Cheney responded, No--that would hurt economic progress."

Here's a little irony for you: Powell visited a memorial for an estimated 5,000 people killed by the evil dictator of a country that we've killed an estimated 8,000 civilians in our pursuit to liberate that country from the evil dictator.

Hmmmmmm.....

goharley, not that I doubt you, but could you link me to your source on that number??

Certainly sounds like an interesting story.

Curtis

$87 billion is enough money to build apporximately 160 new stadiums for millionaires to play games in.

BBVD,

Here is the link that I believe that Goh gets all his info from...

GoHarleys fact page

Looks like it pretty much fits?

Here's a two of many:

Iraq Body Count

Powell Visit

Pmartin - Your input is a typical neocon response to something beyond your comprehension. However, thank you for clarifying your status of relevence to this and any thread to which you contribute. Your self-exhibited intellect of a buffoon has convinced me that you have neither the sincerity nor maturity to be taken seriously.

This is when you know a thread's gone waaaay beyond any useful discussion. People forget what they've said, and then step in their own **** trying to be cute.

Here's a classic:

"Thank you for your input and calling question to ones intellect. Isn't everyone on this board a genius??? You apparently are. I am just a low down scumbag and my thoughts should not be heard right? Or is it that unless someone meets your specifications that they qualify in this debate?

Practice what you preach!! You may be old but definitely not wise!"

Then he responds to a comment that he doesn't like, but doesn't have an argument to, with a link to a page with this header:

"Welcome to the

Stupid People Pages!!!"

because he doesn't actually have anything to intelligent to say. Nice. You get all pissy and defensive when someone questions your intelligence, then you do the same thing to someone else, but with twice the malice and the subtlety of a 4x4 in the forehead.