#210147 - 09/10/03 03:23 AM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Fry
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 34
Loc: enumclaw
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c'mon BVVD is in highschool and he has a better understanding on the subject then alot of you all i think it is kinda funny(in my opinion)no offence to any of you at all. I dont have alot of recolection of this but he has some valid points that i understand... Brendan
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#210148 - 09/10/03 09:06 AM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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I didn't realize BBVD was only in High School so I apologize for treating him like an adult. Just ribbing you BBVD.
But....your simplistic definition describes GWB to a tee which makes him a terrorist. Your words not mine. Governs by intimidation. In fact it describes the US past and present and almost any other country plus the Catholic church. This brings up another problem I have with the current regime and many in the general population. ...the very loosely defined terrorist label. It has strong similarities to the McCarthy era. It's getting to be the Kevin Bacon principal....if Ashcroft can link you or your business to a friends girlfriends second cousins hairdresser whom is suspected of donating money to an organization that sent the money to feed the poor in Ethiopia but the local head of the organization took a trip to the middle east in the 1960's then you can be labeled and jailed for supporting terrorism. Now if they could just make Liberal = Terrorism stick they'd be able to bring out the street sweepers and have a big bon fire.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#210150 - 09/10/03 10:26 AM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Poodle Smolt
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
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Anyone who pays the families of martyrs (suicide bombers in Isreal) $25,000 is supporting terrorism. Swat him like a fly. Keep him on the run, and hound him and what is left of his regime.
It would be nice if we lived in a kinder, gentler world, but we don't.
300+ lives spent to free the world of vermin like him, plus what has been budgeted and spent to date is cheap. (I am on no way devaluing the brave souls who have lost their lives, or those who will lose their lives in the future). These costs have already saved the lives of countless people who would be tortured by Saddam in the future. Do you really think one day he would have said, "Enough killing, I think I'll devote the rest of my life to freeing the oppressed around the world. Maybe I'll become a spokesman for Feed The Children, just like Sally Struthers!"
This is the American way, and we have fought for freedom since our beginning.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
They call me POODLE SMOLT!
The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.
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#210151 - 09/10/03 10:45 AM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
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Originally posted by Big Bad Voodoo Daddy: I read that article that I believe goharley linked ... So what you have is a report written to a non profit organization, who really nobody paid attention to...
Well anyways, that article just didnt do much for me. I've only been in high school journalism for one year, and even I can see it was poorly written and completely one sided.
All it did was what the rest of you guys are doing, bringing up small tidbits of information to be anti-bush.
Curtis It is kind of cute the way these guys keep encouraging you, isn't it? To begin, the PNAC was written BY a nonprofit group, not TO one. It was presented to both the Clinton and Bush administrations. The Clinton administration didn't do much with it because it was recognized as a neoconservative plan for global domination. However, you'll notice that some of the authors now work for Bush. Secondly, the author of the original article is a former Minister of Parliment. He made his living writing to, and addressing the public. I hardly think your one year of preparatory journalism justifies your critique. Finally, those "small tidbits of information" are commonly known as facts. We adults use those to make sound informed decisions and to which upon are based opinions. If you constantly construe those facts as being "Bush bashing" perhaps you should speak with a counselor about delusions of persecusion.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.
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#210152 - 09/10/03 11:35 AM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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He could put Jimmy Carter in charge of delivering all of the checks...That'd keep Jimmie busy for a loooong time. Hey grandpa............you want to compare how you spend your time and how Carter spends his time to see who is doing more for the good for the country? Bad-mouthing Carter is a fool's game. Not much of a President, but IMO the only decent man to hold that office in the last 30 years.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#210153 - 09/10/03 01:24 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Reverend Tarpones
Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
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BBVD
I am impressed that you are interested in politics and that you are willing tom take a stand for what you believe in. I was much like you when I was that age. I would like to offer some advise. I know non was asked for and you may consider it to be worth only what it costs.
As you form your political beliefs ask yourself how much of what I believe came from my independent discovery versus simply believing what my folks believe.
If your beliefs are your own, more power to you. But beware of simply adopting the beliefs of those around you. Ry really hard to read editorials written by those with whom you disagree. it is good to you to know what all sides think. I am a staunch liberal but I make it a point to listen to Rush, and to read George Will and other conservative writers. Sometimes they make me change my opinion. If you never can be swayed by others, perhaps you are a bit too rigid in your thinking. Also try to watch world news by BBC or any other broadcast that does not originate in the U.S. You will find that our newscasters do not even mention important world events if they don’t directly and immediately effect the U.S. And remember this, while we should respect the office of president and love our country, never forget that they will ALL lie to you when it suits their purposes. No one party has a corner on that market. Think, question and keep an open mind. And try to remember that neither political party is always right or always wrong. The truth usually lies in the middle ground.
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.
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#210154 - 09/10/03 02:16 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.
Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16958
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
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Besides the few grammar errors in the document itself, I found a few fictionous statements Uh, BBVD..........just a note. Leave the grammar errors alone.........don't judge that paper on the grammar and we won't judge your posts on the spelling.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell. I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.
Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames
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#210155 - 09/10/03 02:26 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Spawner
Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 888
Loc: Enumclaw
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Okay...
PNAC IS a non profit organization for one... The report was NOT PNAC, the report was written FOR PNAC.
Next, I am allowed to believe whatever I want. My parents never enforced anything on me, and I am not a complete republican. Mr. Roach does not deserve the office he has IMHO. His interviews were all the political game of where he really had no idea what he was talking about, but won the crowd over with his smile.
And lastly, I am not writing a journalistic article here. I am not printing this for millions to see. This is a simple discussion forum. When I make reports for school or resumes or for a job shadow, I go over it with a fine comb to check for grammar/spelling mistakes.
Oh, and I need to end here with a question that is likely to get me a few more hot replys... If you live in a country governed by terrorism, but you are allowed to come and go as you please, then why are you still here?
Obviously there is SOMETHING you like about it. You at least have one up on the Iraq population. You can leave and never come back, go talk bad about the country, whatever... Nothing will happen to you or your family.
Curtis
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#210157 - 09/10/03 02:53 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
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Actually you are the one, with the narrow definition of terrorism, who labeled this country governed by terrorism. With that narrow definition there is no where in the world you can go to escape it. The love it or leave it comment is another simplistic one and assumes that you either accept things as they are or leave. It always omits the third option that is the very foundation of what this country is about ...love it or leave it or change it. I'm definitely choosing door number three next November. I'm not sure this country can survive four more years of this crap.
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella
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#210158 - 09/10/03 05:18 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Returning Adult
Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 247
Loc: Columbia Co. Oregon
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Anyone remember these phrases that were pounded into our heads to justify the war -
1. Imminent Threat. 2. Weapons of Mass Destruction.
Both have proven to be baseless propaganda.
BBVD - in doing your research about the evil Saddam (yes, a truly awful nut case) you might look a little further back and discover that it was actually the USA that funded him and kept him in power - until he overstepped into Kuwait.
Finally, if we were serious about getting to the root of terrorism, we'd do an about-face and go into Saudi Arabia.
The British are much better informed than we are. The lies and the liars that lie are being unmasked in the press. The news is reporting that nearly 50% of the Brits now want their Prime Minister to resign after essentially lying to them of the need to join this war. A full 75% call for the defense minister's resignation.
Perhaps reflecting the US press's lack of critical analyses (simply repeating to us whatever the spin doctors say), in a Time/CNN poll conducted here, 63 percent believed going to war with Iraq was the right decision.
Still this administration's facade is cracking and now one of the greater threats to America is the Bushies are going to have to find a way to crank up the 'fear factor' to remain in control. Stay tuned.
_________________________
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#210159 - 09/10/03 05:38 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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This is all my opinion not supported by any facts whatsoever.... Flame me if you wish! It is my belief that we may never know if sadaam played a role in terrorist activities. I believe that financial support of terrorism will never be discovered. No bank transactions will surface mainly because he had lots of cash at his disposal. What was it 100 million or something like that that he tried to escape with... probably a drop in the bucket. The easiest way to get something or someone is by cash... not very many terrorist take american express.... He was a bad man and he hated americans... I recieved this by email, take it for what it is worth.... It may be a fabricationion for all I know.... But hey, If it is for real... it is all the proof that I need that what we did was right.
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#210160 - 09/10/03 06:47 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Spawner
Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 570
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
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We need a translation, regardless of authenticity (which I seriously doubt...I'm sure that would have made the news).
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#210162 - 09/10/03 09:13 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Spawner
Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 888
Loc: Enumclaw
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#210163 - 09/10/03 09:25 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Poodle Smolt
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
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Saddam Hussein is the modern day version of Hitler or Stalin.
He has stolen the resources of his own country to enrich himself. Prior to our most recent invasion, Saddamland and Iraq were the same country. He is a meglomaniac.
He has committed horrific acts against different segments of his own country, other sects of the Muslim religion including the Kurds and Shiite's. These acts include the use of death squads, and chemical and biological warfare. His actions have shown that he singles out minorities and kills them.
He has killed his friends, and even members of his own family.
Until he was removed from power, no Iraqi dared to say anything against him for fear of their life, or the lives of their family.
I don't know or care about these WMD. Never did. Don't think I even commented on them.
If he were to remain in power he would have tried to annex portions of surrounding countries like he tried with Iran in 1980 or Kuwait in 1990.
There are some pretty amazing similarities between Saddam, Hitler, and Stalin. History has a way of repeating itself.
Can you can honestly say that the world would be a better place with him in full control of his country? I think not.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
They call me POODLE SMOLT!
The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.
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#210164 - 09/10/03 09:42 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Spawner
Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 570
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
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Dogfish, there are a lot of us here that, while we don't care for the way things were/are being handled in Iraq, don't disagree with any of your statements.
My problem is with people that state their obvious opinions as fact, then slam anyone that disagree with them and label them all as "Bush haters", "bleeding heart liberals", and such.
I personally don't think being the world's police force is a good idea unless you have a world body that can effectively act as a judicial and executive branch. Otherwise there is no consensus, and you have what we're looking at right now. A candy assed UN trying to look valuable, a bully USA that is daring someone to knock the chip off it's shoulder, and a part of the world that continues to hate us more every time we turn around.
I'm very afraid that the hatred for us is going to far outweigh any attempts to make this a safer place to live.
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#210165 - 09/10/03 10:58 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Poodle Smolt
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10878
Loc: McCleary, WA
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I don't believe I have labeled anyone as such, and I know you are not saying that about me. Thank you for a good discussion on your part, SW.
The real issues, I believe, are the ones I have pointed out. Saddam is a very bad man. Nobody else has the power, ability, and interest (oil) to accomplish this. Sometimes you have to step up tp the plate, no matter how hard it is, to take the issue head-on because it is the right thing to do.
If we took the attitude at the beginning of WW2 (during the battle of Britain or after Pearl Harbor) that we were scared of the enemies we might make defending freedom, we wouldn't be the country we are today, and world politics would be completely different. The attitude you suggest goes against everything this country represents. Please don't take this as a personal attack, I am just refuting your argument.
Sometimes you have to "nut up" in the face of criticism to do the right thing and face the consequences afterwards.
The friend of my enemy is also my enemy.
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"
They call me POODLE SMOLT!
The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.
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#210166 - 09/10/03 11:57 PM
Re: NFR Do you know how much $87 Billion is?
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Carcass
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2379
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
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Dogfish, I don't disagree with any of your points of fact, your predictions of what might happen of course can not be confirmed, but I believe that they are not totally out of the realm of possibility. Here is what I have a problem with: When a man (Pres. Bush) tries to sell me a duck but he tells me it is a dog, I lose trust in his capacity for honesty. Now, in my more cynical moments I have thought that honesty is not a needed value as a President, but I would sure like to have a bit of trust that my President is telling the truth. President Bush either lied or he was very mistaken about WMD and links to Al Quaeda. His inability to "come clean" with the American people will not earn him my vote in Nov. 2004. I'm pretty sure he can live with that and probably get a good nights sleep as well. That may be the biggest reason of all why he should not be reelected. My $.02.
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"
R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
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