How bout this for some P.R...

It'll be interesting when this takes off just how the government alienates the sportsmen even more...


Muckleshoots begin selling tribe salmon - Market competitive, but group hopes to find its own niche
by Mike Archbold, Journal Reporter

September 16, 2003 - The Muckleshoot Tribe is making fishing history this week on the Duwamish River, becoming the first local tribe to catch and market its own brand of wild salmon.

The fresh coho, also called silver salmon, will be available at area markets, the tribe says.

A radio advertisement touting the quality of Muckleshoot coho began running Monday.

The fishermen were in good spirits Monday, too, though tired from the previous night's work.

John Halladay, who heads the year-old Muckleshoot Seafood Products, said that over the next few days the catch will end up in a number of stores, each with a special tag declaring it ``Wild Fresh #1 Salmon'' from the Muckleshoot Tribe, which is based south of Auburn. Odin Foods Inc. of Renton is distributing the fish to retailers.

Quality isn't an accident, Halladay said. The direction to tribal fishermen on the river is, ``handle with care.''

The net-caught salmon are bled and iced on the river as soon as they are caught to prevent bleeding into the meat and easy bruising. Boats carry crushed ice.

They aren't hauled in by their tails, either, which can pop blood vessels along a fish's spine and cause bleeding, which lowers the quality of the salmon. They are handled with two hands, one under the head and one under the belly.

Dockside, the salmon are gently loaded into the hold of a large fishing boat with a refrigerated sea-water system to keep the fish pristine.

First, each one is checked with an electronic wand to separate out those with a metal tag inserted in their snout as hatchery fry. Their snouts are cut off and bagged for later reading, to see where the fish came from and when they were released.

The salmon are then driven by boat across the river to a nearby fish-processing plant and turned over to a distributor. Both processing and distribution is by contract -- for now.

Carving out a niche in the competitive salmon market will take time, but Halladay said the tribe is investing in the its future to build a name for Muckleshoot fish. Its fishermen have been on the river for centuries, he said, and they will be there for centuries more.

Coho are the bread-and-butter catch of the year. It's a five-day-a-week fishery, compared to a couple of 12-hour fisheries for chinook salmon.

Last year, the first day's catch was 80,000 pounds. Sunday night's catch was about 11,000 pounds. Tribal biologists say the run could be late and hasn't peaked yet, though they are keeping their eye on the catch numbers.

Like all commercial fishermen, tribal members on Monday wished the price-per-pound was higher. Muckleshoot Seafood Products is paying 60 cents per pound.

Ralph Elkin Jr. and his cousin, John Jansen, said they hoped the harvest picks up soon.

``It's pretty slow yet,'' said Jansen, but with rain forecast, he hoped the coho might start moving around more.

John Starr, who said he has been fishing since he was 8, said there was a time when fishermen could make a living -- but not anymore.

``You can get by,'' he said. ``Usually I just do it because I like to do it. It's in my blood.''

By early Monday morning, he had pulled in 73 coho and no humpies, or pink salmon, which aren't worth much on the market. It is a big pink salmon year, too.

Only about half of the 30-40 boats in the tribe's fishing fleet showed up for opening day. The coho were coming in at between 6 and 7 pounds, although a few fishermen were getting larger ones.

Starr and the other fishermen also hold out salmon to sell from the back of their trucks lined up at 121 S. River St. under the First Avenue Bridge. Do the math, he said: $2 a pound is better than 60 cents a pound. He has one restaurant owner who usually buys between 50 and 60 fish each year.

Stanley Moses, a longtime Tribal Council member and head of the tribe's fishery committee, said the tribe has owned the Duwamish River boat launch and docking facility for 38 years. It is now in trust status. The site has grown and today represents at least a $3 million investment by the tribe, including docking facilities and buildings.

He said it would be great if the Muckleshoot Seafoods Products could pay fishermen more for the fish but it simply depends on pricing trends that begin in Canada and Alaska. The tribal company has to at least break even, he said.

Halladay said the company already markets smoked salmon in special box sets as well as canned salmon. To further that end of the business, the tribe is planning a 13,000-square-foot cannery which may be built on the Duwamish site.

Eventually, he said, Muckleshoot Seafood Products -- fresh smoked and canned -- will be in every store in the state.

That's great.

Personally I have no problem at all with it. They've done far more than the state for our fisheries and will continue to do so.
They've got bioligists working on small streams and large rivers to improve habitat. Last I checked the commercials don't. Hell the state doesn't do much work for fish habitat anymore. They'll mandate it for construction work but let others foot the bill. The tribe has the money now and they're putting it to good use as far as I can tell.

Hopefully, people will realize the fish they are buying and not buy at all. If people don't buy their fish then they won't be netting and selling them.

Boycott tribal caught fish.

Think I'd rather boycott fish caught by white factory trawlers myself.

Looks like it may be a tough year "AGAIN" on the Green. Thanks Mukle****!!!!

Out of the three tagged fish I got in Elliott Bay last year the 2 biggest came from the Muckulshoot Hatchery.

Duro - I don't recall there being a Muckleshoot hatchery on the Green. I thought all the hatcheries on the Green were WDFW owned.

Easy,
Thats what I thought too till I got the tag reports back from the state. I still dont know where the hatchery is. Maybe someone here does. Only 1 of the 3 came from Soos Creek though.

Interesting.

Pautzke's used to have a hatchery in the gorge, maybe the Mucks took it over???

I will try to see if I can find those reports im not sure if I saved them. But the name Icy Creek or something like that comes to mind.

They own a hatchery across from were the new bridge was put in on the north side of the christmas tree farm I do believe that they are the ones who also raise the chum for the Green River.

Icy creek would be the old egg hatchery. Buddy of mine was telling me they used to just get kings back to it for eggs.

They also have the net pens over in Elliot bay .
These are released in the salt so they never make it up river, at least I don't think they do.

The tribal hatchery is called the Keta Creek Hatchery, and is just north of the new bridge, on Keta Creek.

Rob

Isn't the Keta Creek hatchery run by the Muckleshoots?

I do not recall seeing the gentle handling with the great reverence mentioned in the article. What I do remember seeing (last year) was a fisherman pulling up his net, picking out fish, and then throwing some back into the water while keeping others.

Wooley worm, great minds must think alike, and at the same time too!!

All I remember for sure is when I gave the fish checker the 3 heads I asked him what kind of info was on the tags. And he said it would give the date the fish were released and which hatchery they came from. Than I said there is only the soos creek hatchery for salmon. And he said no there was wdfg hatcherys and tribel hatcherys.

The Mucks,well if you beleive all that BS try again.Take care of the fish ,ok whatever.Seen enough to make any of you pissed off Why would you bye any of there fish anyway????Catch it your self .I'm with Easy boycott !!!

kinda reminds me of why there's so few pinks in the nisqually now. i went down there fishing the other day and watched as the indians pulled their nets in and started tossing out dead humpies

Sounds like they just want a few more bucks...I guess the Casino must not be bringing in all the cash they need...LOL

Unfortunately the casino is probably doing all of the funding. They are making money hand over fist there. They do have some fish programs that help. I believe I was told they funded the Reiter Ponds last year. Anyone hear of this? I am with Easy on this one too. Any net is too many nets. Ban the Nets!

Emerald Queen Casino makes it possible for them to distribute over $2,000 to each tribal member PER MONTH...that includes the kids. Typical family with mom and dad and three kids gets $10,000 per month...without working or fishing. They do sell fresh salmon under the 1st ave South bridge near the Duwamish. Last year I sent a friend down there and he got 5 Coho over 10# for $20. Why bother?

just to throw a little gas on the fire here, they are advertising these fish as "Wild". I thought that would stir the pot a little

I heard one of the radio spots this am for the Muckleshoots new super salmon. It is called wild muckleshoot # 1 Salmon. I have been on board a tribal boat more than once during their Elliott bay fishery. The radio spot claims that all the netters have on board tanks with ice, and each fish is bled immediatley, They handel the fish with two hands, I can tell you right now that the river netters who some dont even have a boat but tie off the net on shore, and toss the fish in the trunk of the family car or truck. I have seen fish piled upon the deck of some of these tribal boats with no ice and they are thrown, kicked, stepped on, tossed into bilge juice. I have no dought that one video camera focused on one boat would put an end to the false claims. They are not going to handel fish in a delicate manner when their price of 60cents Lb gives them little incentive to do so. What are they doing to the fish that they are not selling as wild #1 muckleshoot salmon for their new program. The fish they sell under the first ave south bridge go for $2.00Lb. For that price they really must care for these fish?

Great now skokomish will market there special strain of "WILD SALMON" and the suquamish Will market there special strain of "WILD SALMON" along with the rest of the tribes. Its just a feeble attemp to get more money from there catch.

Its actually a good sign, there making all the big bucks at the casinos and if they cant get better prices for the salmon maybe they will quit!

The Keta creek hatchery is actually West of the "new" bridge (It's Whitney bridge FYI).

About a half mile west of Whitney bridge is a road to the north that goes right to the hatchery (212th AVE SE), about a quarter mile, take a right behind behind the fire station, viola' there it is.
They must also have Silvers coming from/to Icy creek and Palmer. The Silvers can be found (At least I and one other guy have found them) much (way!) higher than Keta creek and Whitney bridge...

Micro-
You made a good point, but maybe missed something. If all the tribes have their 'own' brand of salmon, pretty soon people will realize they are just buying salmon, and it wont be such a big deal any more....
"Saturated marketing" = consumer indifference. First it was Copper River, now Duwamish Dilver!(my slang for silvers/coho)
Either way some of em escape for me to catch, maybe.

Exactly Phreak! the lost interest will result in lower prices again and hopefully make netting salmon not worth there time.

Reminds me of a trip to anthony's at fishermens terminal.Me and a bunch of friends were watching a game in the bar getting snockered.My girlfriend wanted some oysters on the half shell and went up to the bar to order some.She called back down and asked what kind should she get.I looked up at her and frowned ,what kind?I got up to the oyster bar to find they had Quilicene river oysters, Dosewallips river oysters,Hamma Hamma river oysters, Skokomish river oysters!I found this marketting ploy so funny I accidently sprayed the the guy working behind the bar with a mouthfull of crown royal.Yay we all got kicked out.

Mmmm... Nothing like snagger turds on the half shell...

Maybe the Tribe (Muckleshoot) can start up an Elliot Bay or Duwamish oyster "brand"!
Can you you say 'Heavy metals on the half shell ' ?
I can taste the mercury and lead already !!
Don't forget the subtle flavor of PCB's and other mystery ingredients supplied by Boeing over the years....

If they dont fish or know somebody that fishes they should be buying farm raised salmon. I am for a boycott on all netted salmon. I do not fall for the propaganda put out by the commercials about farm raised salmon. A few years ago a bunch of atlantics got out of the net pens, they tasted really good. Another thing is that out of 176 fish I snagged they were all femmale. (It was legal to snag them because they were a non native species and the state wanted them gone).

I think the fact that tribal netters are netting the Green Sunday afternoon through Friday afternoon does not leave a whole lot of oppurtunity for us sporties. What happened to 50/50? We only have a shot two days a week. That, to me, is BS. I would like to see the netters trim their netting schedule to three or four days a week.

5 days a week for how long? does anyone know that question? thats gonna suck, its not like they get any big ones up river anymore...

We should close all hatcheries then the netters will get half of nothing and the sporties will get half of nothing.

And, yes, the sporties should be selfish because we are limited to two fish per person per day as if we are going to wipe out a run of fish with our rods and reels.

The general voting public probably does not fish and do not realize what happens to a river when the nets are strewn across capturing everything swimming by.

If there weren't nets there would not be an ESA.

Just to throw another log on the FIRE ,EACH MUCK FAMILY IS ALLOWED 7 NETS do ya think that's enough? NO wait ,and in those nets are at least 150 fish each time they pull them .O ya they pull them 4 times a night you do the math x5 days a week!!!!
This info comes from a Muck told to my very own face.Thought I would pass it on.

Good post AuntyM,
I think alot of people only see a snapshot of what they think is happening but dont take the time to look at the whole picture. And I will admit that I was one of them for a long time.All I thought about was the Indians taking all the fish. Not thinking about the fact that they are pretty much picking up there share of fish after everyone else had had a chance at those fish.And really not even thinking about what they do to inhance the fishery.

Ron, did you ever think that he told you that to watch your white butt get worked up and go ranting and raving to anyone that would listen??

AM,
Good point, none of this is doing any good. 10 years ago I had a real problem with the Indians netting. There's been 2 things that have changed in the last 10 years. I'm not as narrow minded now and can look at the big picture and thanks to gambling money the tribes are putting more into the resource now than the state is.

And people think they don't have a right to that resource?? Look at how many salmon are coming back to rivers now that the Indians net compared to what it was 10 years ago. If people would pull their heads out and buddy up with the tribes big things could happen around here.

Sure tribes enhance fisheries. They have to in order to maintain some kind of fishery for themselves. Otherwise, all the fish would have been gone long ago.

How ironic that a pink salmon hatchery in AK is operated by a non-profit. No ****, Sherlock!

Any real downside to this, aside from the effect of those pinks consuming resources that other species could have used?

Aunty,

Nice posts. Thank you.

Where should J.Q. Public get his salmon? We've got anti-farmed salmon, anti-Indian netted salmon, and anti-non-treaty commercial salmon (presumably all gear types - gillnet, purse seine, and troll) on this BB. But not everyone who wants to eat salmon fishes for them. At the present time, I'd rather buy a salmon from a treaty fishery than a white commercial net fishery, if I could get the kind of fish I wanted. I avoid farmed salmon mainly because of the chemical use in the form of medication and artificial coloring.

With regard to the original post and the Muckleshoot advertising venture, I admire their initiative, but I think it will take a marketing miracle to succeed. The Cooper River salmon label works partly because of marketing and remains successful because it really is a very high quality product. The Muckleshoot label is being applied to terminal area harvested salmon that are fairly close to their spawnig time, and the quality just isn't there. Don't get me wrong, I eat plenty of river caught coho and some chinook - and an occasional pink - but they just aren't premium quality salmon. And there isn't much to differentiate them from all the other terminal area salmon being harvested. That is, even though they may do the right things in the form of bleeding the fish and promptly storing it on ice, it will still only be of average or good quality, and well below excellent or outstanding quality. Nonetheless, I hope it works for them, if for no other reason that salmon ought to go to market in the best possible condition that it can instead of the handling that typifies terminal area treaty Indian fisheries.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

When people say the "tribe" does this and the "tribe" does that, what they really should say is that the federal government does these things using federal tax dollar subsidies to the Indians.

The casinos generate some internal revenues but even that is a net drain on the economy as no product comes out of a casino.

no product come out of the casino??
hhmmm, what about the added jobs?? how about the small business's that pop up around them? The construction jobs to build the casinos and the strip malls that pop up near them?
hhmmmm......................what about the jobs that built all of the new modular homes that alot of the Muckleshoots got with the help of casino dollars??
what about the construction jobs of running city sewer way outside of Auburn to hook all those modular homes up to?

Have you heard about the casino in the works for the Puyallups?? On a scale larger than most of the ones in Vegas. And this in one of the worst spots in Tacoma. Think this won't boost property values in the surrounding neighborhood??

Saying the feds are suddenly pouring all this money to the tribes is ludicrous!! Why would they suddenly start now?? They haven't. It's the tribes wisely re-investing their money.

Sinker,Nop dude was just bragin and if I had enough indian in me I still wouldn't net.Like Carl said " maintain for themselves", hope it will last.

I guess casinos do have a product, that being entertainment.

I can see where this is going and how publicizing fish that are caught in an urban area can really get alot of feathers ruffled. I live near the Green, fished it for nearly 35 years and seen many changes, but to commercially market fish out of it means I won't be able to at least enjoy the silver sport fishery that I have had in the past. I'd like to have a compromise to let us sporties at least have a King fishery on the green or have the muckleshoot start a hatchery on a river not too high in the publics eye to commercially market the fish. Strange that they claim that thay've had the boat dock for how many years that now they want to market the fish to stores. What were they doing with the fish they were catching in the past decades?

Robert

I wil have to agree that there are alot of fisheries that are there only because the differrant tribes have spent the money the state doesnt.They also have large amounts locked up into legal battles that in the long run,would benifit us.The skokes and the lisencing of the n.fork damn comes to mind.The george adams hatchery you guys all love is there to meet the treaty agreaments with the skokes,not for your snagging fun.Same with the majority of the chum fisheries here in this state.

Sometimes I have to laugh.People always defend there right to keep the last fish because if I don't the indians will.Or I will stop when the indians do.I think this same hatered is what drives some of these indian families to exersice there rights the way they do.

We came into this beautiful country,set up caneries,just about decimated every run in the great northwest,proceeded cutting all the trees down,damn up all the rivers,but its them f@%* indians that are responsible.

SINKER, the casino's might have brought jobs, but what about all the traffic from the tribes new ampitheater, who's dollars are gonna pay for all the road contruction, king county thats who, i doubt the tribe will foot that bill and as for casino's givin jobs, it takes alot lives too, 7-9% more suicides per capita where casino's are, not to mention more crime, and more people going into debt for gambling addiction... its a sad affair, i hope they build all the houses they want, employ more jobs for the sake of the might dollar...at what cost to peoples integrity???

Great Post ltlCleo

Berkley,
Maybe the Muckleshoots can put a toll booth on that road running thou there reservation to collect money for road inprovments.

Here is a good linc !!
http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/do/may00/may1200a.htm

It is nice that they funded a steelhead effort. Don't see that very often.

You may be shocked at how much they and other tribes do. People just need to do a little research.

Berkeley, I grew up in Enumclaw and still have alot of friends that live up there.
I don't want to hear any whining and sniveling about "all the traffic"!!
How many nights out of the year is that?? Not many. The traffic on that highway is far worse due to all the a-holes that moved to the plateau than it ever will be due to a concert every couple weeks.
The traffic excuse is one of the lamest things I've heard in a long time.

More suicide around casino's?? And this is the Indians fault because??

I'd imagine you could find all kinds of places where there is a 10% jump. hhhmmmm, might be 10% higher in Seattle too....maybe we should bulldoze Seattle to save everyone's lives, then they could all move to the suburbs.

Seriously, I seen a show last week that talked about suicide in the 'burbs and how it was higher. Maybe we should ban people from living in the burbs. Damn, I'd be a criminal. hhhmmmm maybe I should sue the planners that planned this neighborhood and the builder that built it here.

what about the public who wants to buy fresh deer that their tax money helps fund in stores?

What ever happened to Kenawick man?

exactly why we dont need to go down that road again...

same game different players...

If the Indians are doing the same as what the white settlers did to the salmon runs like you suggest they are, they'd have been wiped out long ago.
I don't remember the years now but it wasn't long at all and the settlers had decimated the runs. It wasn't farming, logging, dams, or Indians that killed the Columbia salmon it was greedy uneducated settlers that did it, long before the other factors came into play. When I say uneducated I'm referring to the fact that they didn't know any different. Not all would have fished like they did if they knew the impact, but I'm sure some would just like the commercials today do.

well i guess as long as they're pumping out hatchery brats I suppose there will always be a run now wont there... but is it a really a run if its all hatchery fish...

only time will tell now eh?

my main concern is with money and big business comes power with the desicion makers... how soon before the sport season gets shorter and shorter...

To be honest I don't pay alot of attention to the politics side of things. I used to but I soon realized I was ticked off all the time no matter what. I've since just kept an occasional eye on it and am much happier now. But what surprises me is that sportsmen should have more power when it comes to money than anyone. Granted you won't get them to agree on anything but where's the tackle companies that everyone gives their money too at in all this??
Sitting back east collecting more money. People need to start lobbying them to lobby for us. We'd get more fish and they'd get more $$$.

Why do the tribes and the commercials get away with what they do?? It's because they have organizations representing them as a whole. They don't have the WT vs. TU vs. everyone else.

What a statement.......... They have done nothing except effectively whine and wave the treaty...... We taxpayers have been the ones to "Do it" by supporting their fisheries with our tax dollars. And believe me, if they could get all whites banned from fishing (as my wifes uncle used to say, and he was a tribal board member "You have no right fishing in our waters") in any waters that they fish they would......
What a bonehead way to think.....

MC

For heavens sake people, do you all forget who paid (and pays) for these "Tribal" hatcheries? You and I, unless of course you are on of those lucky tribal members (since they do not pay the taxes we do)......

MC

Well at least the commercials pay taxes on what they catch and sell...... Crock of shiot that the tribes get use of all the public resources that we do, yet they do not pay the taxes that we do........ I guess I'll start sitting in the back of the bus now.....

MC

Very true, but we learned and are changing our ways.... Most of the tribe members that fish would take every last one and could care less... I thought that way of thinking was why we were so bad..... Feminine males way of thinking makes me want to puke....

MC

Yeah, give me the kind of funding that they get and I could accomplish a lot too..... God, everyone acts like they have done all of this without any help from anybody.....

You have watched too much Beavis and Butthead and you fall into the latter category. Without the dams, farming, logging, etc., the indians would be freezing their ass off sitting in a teepee wishing for a warm piece of food.... They sure enjoy modern living, but curse it as being the reason for them needing protection and special priviledge......... Hell, they cannot even hunt or fish using "Traditional" methods.... Mercurys and monofiliment nets were not available in the 1800's...... Oh, I forgot, you were too busy watching MTV to learn anything in school.....

MC

MasterCaster,
You...............ah #@&% it!!

yeah, I happened to like a show that was on MTV well after I was in school. Yup, never learned anything. I will now bow before your narrow-minded ass because you know so much more than the rest of us and you show it so well with your enlightening posts.

Boy MC I thought they had run most of the White Surpremists out of Idaho!! Guess not!!
What are you mad that the Indians were Tresspassing on your land thousands of years before the White men found it or what?
So its OK if tax money is given to someone to run hatcherys as long as they are white? And I would guess that you would spend billions in tax dollars to save "native" fish but not a nickel to help the native humans. What part of this cant you understand the Indians and fish survived perfectly well togather for thousands of years there was not a problem till white man showed up. And buy the way do you fish the way your four fathers did? You know with a stick and a string or just a gaff hook. The sad part is I spent most of my life being a bigot against the Indians just like you. But I sure am glad I woke up to the truth.

Here is a nice picture from the Duwamish River. You may notice the net is from bank to bank. Now why would anyone have a problem with this

feminan males way of thinking make me want to puke

I hope that means I make you want to puke! that thought does not bother me a bit

"Without the dams, farming, logging, etc., the indians would be freezing their ass off sitting in a teepee wishing for a warm piece of food.... "

Actually they'd be sitting in a wooden structure with a cook fire going, probably eating some fresh fish.

Got any more facts we can absorb?

I have been down stairs working on my never ending remodle project thinking about where the feminine male thing comes from.I think I got it!

You see a while back mc was spouting some more of his pure hatred retorick and I made a referance similiar to duroboats idea of white supremacy.Of course mc did not like that and started with some little kidddy behavior leaving little nasty notes around for me.I seem to remember one was a personal message,referancing a thread that had something to do with a gay parade and my use of the word normal people vs what ever they choose to be called these days.So in conclusion,I would have to guess that mc is calling me gay?I do not think I have been called that since the first grade.I guess I can quit worrying myself over that now.back to work.

F4F,
Here are some really disturbing net pictures to check out.
www.alaska.net/~wizard/commfish/and11.jpg
www.alaska.net/~wizard/commfish/and02.jpg

Why am I not surprised at your lame replies? I dislike white people more than most, especially the idiots. So I am a White Supremicist because I cannot stand double standards? I guess since my son is 1/2 indian I hate hime too?
Why did they rush to rebury Kennewick man only after he was aged at 9,000 plus years and had european features? Maybe there were caucasions over here during or maybe even before the asians (Indians).
What I hate more than anything are weak minded people that preach for everyone to be proud of their culture and heritage, except their own. I am tired of my son (who is 1/2 white) being ashamed of that part of him. He can revel in his indian ethnicity, but cannot be proud of his caucasion ethnicity without idiots like you calling him a "Racist" or "White Supremicist"......... Believe me, I hate a lot about the white race, especially those in the Gov't and Corporate America..... Not because of their color, but rather their actions. I have no love for ANY race that thinks they are special of above any other race...... That includes the whites that believe that....

Cleo, I don't know why I bother replying to your pathetic dribble.... I never called you gay. I merely mentioned how you were slamming someone for name calling, then you mentioned the Gay parade and referred to yourself as "Normal"..... I think the gay community would then assume that you were calling them "abnormal", which maybe they are.. But You were slamming someone else for name-calling......

Spend one friggin day working in my field and your small clueless minds would be opened up to a lot.... It is not just indians..... Lots of lazy, wortless whites too (can you say Welfare?).

Have a great week in your world....

MC

Duroboat15, before you let those pics disturb you too much, you should look at the numbers of pinks (that's what those are) caught over the last few years in AK.

http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/geninfo/finfish/salmon/catchval/blusheet/02exvesl.htm

They're not even putting a dent in them. Depletion of the pink run from overharvest is probably the last thing they're worried about, particularly in S.E.

So, MC, you judge populations of people (whether it's actually a race thing with you it's hard to tell...you seem to hate ALL races) by the welfare cases that you deal with in your job? I don't get what you're saying....what do you do?

Skywalker,
Yea I know thats why I posted that linc on the end of the first page of this thread about the 2 million pinks stripped of there eggs and dumpped over.I was just tring to show that the Indians are not the only ones to waste fish.That the commercials do the same thing.

Here is some info worth taking a look at.
www.msaj.com/papers/commfish.htm

I guess my point is that, although it's hard to stomach for sporties, unless there's a market for the resource, it's not really wasted if we use it for something. Criminy, at the price of pinks, they could use them for cat food and it wouldn't be wasted.

What concerns me more is the use of ocean resources by them, over spawning (don't know if it's really a big threat but I've heard it can cause problems), and even just too damn many dead fish in a stream.

MC,
its kinda funny that in a little over 4 months and 154 posts that you have been labeled a racist not once but twice. Must be something you said ya think!!

Remember "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its most likely a duck"
I think the same go's for racists.

Well, that would bother me, but first, you do not know me and I am one of the least racist people I know..... Secondly, it seems that nowadays anyone that speaks negatively about any minority group, even if the complaint is based on fact, are labeled racist...
I can say anything I want bad about caucasions, and would never be called a racist. Don't you think that double standard is wrong?
I am a person that believes in a black and white world (meaning right and wrong..... not a "Racist" comment). I unfortunatley live in a very grey-area based world..... As unpopular as my opinions may be, that does not make me racist, and it is really sad that people throw around the "R" word whenever they want someone to shut up...... I respect your right to your opinion, please give me the same courtesy without labeling me one of the worst things that can be said about someone. If I was Indian and complained about injustice from white people, you and others on this board would jump on my bandwagon. You would not label me a racist then..... What is wrong with that picture? I guess whites are the only ones that have the ability to be racist?

"Never judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins".... Quote from an old wise indian.....
I do not judge specific men based on their race. I judge groups of people (of all colors) based on their actions......

MC

I have in laws who are Muckleshoot and work for the tribe, my father in law is indian, my wife is a registered sioux and yes my kids are part indian. I am white, but have any of you stopped and considered that maybe you are offending people who frequent this board or do you care? Personaly I think all of the indian bashing should moderated more closely on this board, but apparently others don't think so

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nordic:
Personaly I think all of the indian bashing should moderated more closely on this board, but apparently others don't think so

could you please give some examples as to what you refer to as indian bashing thank you

Yeah, but we can biotch about the commercials day and night, even say how we wish they would be put out of business without ever having to worry about being called racist or white supremacist...... What a joke.....

MC

MC, can you answer this question?

"So, MC, you judge populations of people (whether it's actually a race thing with you it's hard to tell...you seem to hate ALL races) by the welfare cases that you deal with in your job? I don't get what you're saying....what do you do?"

I'm trying to appreciate your perspective but it's becoming difficult because you don't answer questions.

What a frickin joke!

I agree with points made on both sides. You guys calling MC a racist just because you dont agree is B.S .
The fact is that indians do waste they do break the law (even there own) and if it was the commercials doing this all the time in our faces we would be all over them too. but the commercials around here follow the rules and dont waste like our so called "enviromental stewards" So of course the indians are going to get picked on.

Have you looked on the bottom of the sound lately there are thousands of discarded gill nets killing fish every day. Yet the muckleshoots can not spend some of there precious casino money to help clean them up?sheesh
.


I dont hate people I hate what they DO Dammit and I have a feeling MC is the same we just happen to hate what the indians are doing right now. Racist my arse! liberal lemmings !

MC,
You really need to get a dictionary and look up the differance between "right" and "privilege".
Once you get done with that go to the linc I posted above and try to learn something about this topic. The Native Americans have Rights that have been upheld by the supreme court. The rest of us have privileges that we can loose. But I dont think you want the true facts in this. You have the "facts" as you see them in your head right or wrong as they may be.

P.S

I thought I would spout off something I hate about commercials too.

I hate it when the state opens area 10 to purse seines for chum and they net the tradition blackmouth spots. there an awful lot of shiny fish in them nets.

First, this is the same supreme court that ruled that the Pledge of Allegance is unconstitutional... Many fighting to have that reversed...
Secondly, you make my point for me.... The fact that they have the "right" whereas it is only a "priveledge" for us is exactly my point....
I do not need to go to your site..... Folks like you need to educate yourself in the "real" world.... Remember, I was married to an indian, and her Uncle was a Board trustee on the reservation.... I had 9 years to "study" the tribal way of government.... The specific tribe my wifes family (and yes, we are friends) belonged to received $11,000,000... from the BIA in 1994. This is a Tribe of approx. 6500 members.
I am tired of inequality in this country. Women complained about it, Blacks, Hispanics, Indians, all rightly so. But now it is my turn to complain about it... I am not rich, but my wife and I paid $11,000.00 in taxes last year and I am tired of it. I also object to Bush's 87 billion request to rebuild Iraq.... I suppose any Iraqis on this board will now call me a racist too.....

Hard work, honesty, and integrity are the foundation for success.... Not handouts from those that practice the above.....

Oh, and BTW Aunty... A little tax from Commercials (that do not use public resources much) is better than no taxes from tribes (that use more than their share of public resources)
We all have to pay taxes to enjoy the modern conveniences such as buildings, roads, electricity, etc... It is not fair that a "soveriegn nation" be allowed to play, but not pay. Nothing in the Treaty states that the tribes will be allowed all that the non-tribals are, but not have to pay their fare share. That is my ONLY beef with the tribes....


MC

PS.... Thank you Micropterus101

Unfortunately you will now probably be labeled "one of MC white supremacist buddies from Idaho" for your effort.

My son, who is Klamath indian and now in the 5th grade, asked me when he was in the 3rd grade why his Uncle did not have to pay taxes like I did.... I simply told him "I din't know" as I know he loves his uncle and the truth probably would not have made sense to him anyway.....

MC

Aunty, you put my thoughts into words perfectly. All I can say is Amen!!!

OH OH EDDIE!!! There you go with religion....H2O and Harley will have your hide.

Been eatin pudding Eddie? Your lips are mighty brown.....

I agree with you Aunty about the commercials raping the resource... That has been corporate americas way of doing business from the start. As far as taxes go, very possibly right on for the FEDERAL tax breaks... What is your excuse for the STATE taxes???? Property taxes pay for a lot like schools, etc.... Why is YOUR tribal agenda any different than mine? I only want them to be treated equally with non-indians. Not treated special. I am also against affirmative action... Add that to my "racist" profile (I'm sure you will). I believe we all should prove ourselves in society, not be born into a "caste system" that affords certain rights or privledges to ANY group of people.

If you folks (those thinking they know me or my intentions) had any inkling as to my true feelings for tribal matters (remember, my son is indian) you may just pull your heads out of your arses long enough to understand that it is in their best interest also. How much better we could work with the tribes if there were not the strong feelings of discontent felt by those like myself, that now feel that we must be less because of OUR skin color. Reverse-discrimination is not a solution to the old problem of discrimination.... But I know you feel differently. I would have to wonder what your agenda's really are, since you have not spelled them out to anyone. Criticize to your hearts content, but at least have the nerve to offer more than just name calling or waving court decisions. Maybe then you will have good points to present and folks like myself (that has probably been more involved with tribal affairs than all of you put together) will listen to the ideas and come together. To continue using the same "Pro-Indian" rhetoric from yesterday is pointless, and is a much overplayed tune....

Flame on...

MC

And one more thing Aunty.... Sad state of affairs if you can control Bob and his board with little statements like your quote above. I really can't imagine that he would remove someone from HIS board just because YOU don't like what they say..... You don't like it... You know my Moniker and Avitar... Dont read it....
About as communistic an idea as I've heard.... "We dont like what he says.. Get rid of him"..... Try reading Mein Kampf Aunty... May interest you....

MC

My view is that whatever the Mukleshoots do to propogate salmon pales in comparison to their harvest.
The photo of their fish in the PI today had gill net marks on them.
I'd rather eat farmed fish than theirs. I agree that they should be boycotted, otherwise, increasing market share will mean increasing prices and increased pressure on the stocks. They should not be encouraged for their methods, which are commercial, not subsistance, as the treaties provided. Mark

MC.
Maybe your right Maybe we should make the treatys null and void and take away the rights and reservations. But in that case I guess that all the real estate that we got from the tribes would go back to them. Maybe they would let us fish on the there land. Maybe they would stick us on the reservations (boy it gonna be crowded). Or they could just charge us rent on there land.
If you do indeed have a native american son thats really a shame nobody with you mind set shoud be raising children.
And I understand why you wouldnt want to look at the site I suggested that would only screw up your opinions with a bunch of FACTS and that may overload your narrow mind.
Oh you say you ex-wifes tribe got 11,000,000 for 6500 menbers. If you do the math that comes up to 1692.30 per member. Hardly a windfall if you ask me.
Than you say you were taxed 11,000 income tax. I paid 21,000 income 4000 property so do I win?

AuntyM,
I know your stance on gill nets but what about the purse seiners?? I have been doing alot of reading on the fisherys and the seiners seem to be pretty evil too. But they dont seem to get as much heat as the gill netters. Is that because they dont fish the terminial areas as much as the gill netters do? Whats your opinion of that?

AuntyM, I've commented on the use of seines selectively before...I thought it was this thread but maybe not.

It could happen in a couple of ways, but it's a lot of work. You either have to push the corks down to let selected fish out, or dip 'em out, which can be pretty damaging. Either way you'd have to be able to determine the species and whether it's clipped or not to decide what to do with it.

I've released seals, jellyfish, and birds this way from a seine. No harm, no foul. (no pun intended) That's also how they get dolphins out of the tuna seines, from what I understand....push down the corks and out they go.

Imagine, though, 1000 pinks and 3 native steelhead/chinook in a seine. You'll never see the steelies until they land on deck.

Thanks AuntyM,
Someone had brought up what the commercials return to the fisheries so I looked it up. Licence fees are $680 for purse seine and $480 ea for troll or gillnet. And out of those fees per RCW77.95 comes a $100 surcharge that go's to the regional fisheries enhancement account for enhancement projects. So its not much that they return

AuntyM,
I have another question for you. I tried to find the info but havent had any luck. Do you know if the state is meeting there goals on the commmercial licence buy back program??
http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/lic/econassist.htm
It seems that this program could have a great effect on the fisheries.

"What if it was 800 pinks and 203 wild steelhead? Would it be worth the effort then?"

Even 25 steelies would be worth it. They have to see them first, is the problem. I know what 1000 pinks looks like, and a few steelies in that bag, especially if you don't dry it up first, are impossible to see. I think as long as you DON'T penalize them for the few they miss, they might be willing to make some efforts to save them in quantities. Otherwise they end up selling them as humpies anyway because there's no market for the steelies.

"I would have far less objection to commercial fishing if they put some effort into fishery enhancement and more responsible harvesting."

In this state I know of absolutely none, short of the the licensing fees. Alaska had some pretty promising "aquaculture" projects in S.E. when I was up there, primarily with chums. I don't know what the status is these days, but it was initially funded with money from seine boat operating licenses.

As far as responsible harvesting, the operators do what the regs. allow. Why the regs. allow what they do I have no idea (rationally speaking).

I talk about the property tax that the citizens pay.... not commercials.....

Well, I am from Seattle. Have only lived in Idaho 2 years..... And since Idaho has 4 dams being threatened with breaching, I would think Idahoans DO have a say in all this....

And how would you feel if I used that assanine statement about Indians, or Blacks, or Hispanics???? I can hear your "you are a racist" comment now..... What is your interest in the tribes Aunty? I have a feeling you are a part of one, or someone you are related to...

Funny you make judgement on me and the only difference between you and I is the side of the subject we are on..... You make statements no better than the ones I do...

MC

That statement abouit my son and my ability to raise him crosses the line. Good ass whooping material there..... I do not attack you personally when it comes to your family...

My beef, for those with such simple minds that they have to have it s p e l l e d out for them is this, and only this...... I do not think that anyone deserves more "rights" than others simply because of their race. Now all you do-gooders out there have been preaching this since the 60's, and rightfully so. You have just failed to include ALL races in this, and caucasions for those of you that do not understand, is a race....... I say we all need to be on an even keel when it comes to life period.
How about the other thread about 1.1 million going to a tribe of 250-300 (which is it? shouldnt they know?) and a reservation that is only 100 acres...... 100 ACRES??? They already have 4 fulltime officers, and the Feds give them a grant of 1.1 million for an additional 4 plus boats??? That really makes sense doesnt it, especially with the red ink and cutbacks already in law enforcement throughout washington state..... But you just go on believing what you do. I never thought I would change anybodys mind anyway. I just speak what I feel on the subject that is presented. You really ought to be ashamed of yourself for the statement about my fathering of my son. I teach him that no one is better than anyone else, and that he has to earn his place in society... He is not granted it at birth. Hopefully, he will not be like a majority of kids today that think the world is owed to them on a silver platter and that work is simply for parents to do so they can buy toys for their kids.
Aunty, where is your comment about the statement he made (very derrogatory) about me? I guess if I was Indian, then you would be there to defend me?

MC

As I understand it there are no native Americans. Peoples emigrated here from Asia, then western Europe and on and on. I think a good way to resolve treaty rights would be to have a percent of Indian ancestry cutoff. For instance; if someone has less than 50% Indian ancestry they woud not have treaty rights. Over time treaty rights would be fased out in a relatively benign manner.

This thread is borderline to being closed[not because of Aunty], if we can't keep it civil and productive I'll close it.

A-M,Thanx for opening my mind !Just needed a little help to look at the BIG picture .
Ron H.

AuntyM you will have to use that icon on you next with CFM. Too cute

Thinken the same A-M

Because of who then Jerry ( I respectfully ask?).
She sputs off about my insulting comments, but she states things like Just one quote of hers from a recent post. I could go thru all posts and have several pages....

She is the poster child for double standards if I ever saw one.......

File that complaint Autney (I will pay the filing fee)..... Dribble, dribble, and more dribble.....

Please close the thread Jerry...... Even I am getting tired of this one.....

MC

AuntyM,
I would totally agree that the 50% number is to high. But out of all the groups fighting over the fish I think the Indians rights would be the hardest one to get changed. And after looking at alot of the facts on the issue I myself would think there would be more benifit to have them on our side. I now save my hatred for a little group based out of Duvall that I think has a better chance of destroying our sportfishing privledges. And I almost hate to say it because I will probably get slammed of this.But if It were up to me I would sign ownership of all state hatcherys over to the tribes. That little group in Duvall would have a much harder time shutting them down I think If the tribes owned them.

What a great idea! WT would have to sue the tribes!!! I like it.

So AuntyM please correct me if my numbers are wrong. If commercial fishing was turned over to the tribes as you mentioned.And they have the right to 50% of the catch that would not increase there percentage but instead of the sportfisherman and commercials splitting the remaining 50% as it is now. That would leave a full 50% to the sportfisherman.That sounds like a great plan to me. But one small thing I would add before turning the commercial fishing over to them is a total gill net ban. They would have to get the 50% out at see by trollers or possibly the modifed purse seine operation. The only fishing that they would be allowed to do in the rivers would be ceramonial maybe 1% of the catch.

AuntyM,
I dont know if you looked at the linc I put up earlier in this thread.But It talked about the state getting rid of fish traps back in the early 1900's in favor of seiners and gill nets. It said they did this because the traps were to effective and the cause of reduced fish runs.It also said something about the gill nets being more selective(right). The linc is pretty interesting reading for about the first half. Its also posted on the other board your on under the heading "fishing history" Whats really funny about reading the first few pages is that if you took out all the dates listed you would know they were not talking about modern day.

Aunty here it is so you wont have to look for it.
http://www.msaj.com/papers/commfish.htm

Grandpa,
So you like that idea huh .Well here is anouther one you might get a laugh out of. Remove all signs that refer to "Hatcherys" from the hatchery locations and replace them with signs that read.
WASHINGTON STATE
Captive Breeding Program
For the Enhancment of NW Salmon Runs

I think that may be a good public relations move.

Aunty,
Reading that sure made me wonder what would the fisherys in this state would look like now. If the state would have upheld there contract (treaty) with the tribes in the first place and the tribes would not have had to get the fed's involved. But whats past is past and we will never know.

Auntie,

Thank You. I appreciate and respect your apology.

I hope everyone on this board will recognize that WT is made up of real, honest, hardworking people who are doing something they all believe in, working to preserve Washington's wild fish resources and habitats. I hope all of you that disagree with WT's positions can at least acknowledge that simple truth.

As far as the answer you seek, auntie, it IS coming. Please recognize that it is not a question of an "acceptabel hatchery." It is a question of an acceptable hatchery PROGRAM. That requires a complicated answer that requires input from a lot of quarters, and I'm not going to be pressured into making it prematurely.

At this point you'll just have to trust me that I'm taking it seriously and it's coming.

Ramon Vanden Brulle,
Washington Trout

I hope I live long enough to trust WT