I thought teachers were supposed to be smart. If thats the case why are they still striking? A blind man with half an @$$ knows that you will never get back what you lose from a strike. Not only that but it makes you look awfully greedy.

I was curious with a teacher strike, for a parents sake, could I as a parent sue the school district? Not for the sake of money, but to make a point to a school district, that with working parents the financial strain of extending day care, baby sitting, or cost associated to my child not attending school. Or my child as a senior, may not be able to make the "cut date" of College enrollment. Or my child is a potential scholarship pick, and without a season a scout would not see my child’s accomplishments.

I am not in that position, but I was asking myself this.

How about this....

...when the school levy's come up for a vote, pass them.

...otherwise wqe are just giving lip service to the thought that kids and their education are a high priority.

For non city folks......have any of you seen what it costs to rent a studio aprtment in Issaquah?

IMO, its criminal that teachers are often left with no choice but FIGHT for fair compensation....

Yea H2O,
50000 or 60000 grand a year for there part time job just isnt fair at all

....ummm, the average teachers salary is well below that brother...

...and if you are going to try teaching and living in the same community, places like Issaquah are at a serious disadvantage because the cost of living...

...50, 000 a year will take you alot further in Forks than it will in Issaquah.

Paying a living wage to those that would educate your children isn't asking too much is it?.... In my mind, its just that what constitutes a living wage is different from district to district...

...40, 000 a year will get you alot more in Forks than it will in Issaquah, important to keep in mind when you ask yourself how much is too much.....

Youre WRONG it may even be a little higher. I looked it up before I posted.

Where did you get that $50-$60k figure?

WA state teachers average somewhere around $42k, start at under $30k, and are below the overall national average for salaries.

They are WAY up the list as far as number of students per teacher, like #2 or so, which is my biggest beef.

...post your source bro so I can see for myself.....

Source= 2003 wash. st. employees salary and job title.

I don't think that teachers get a raw deal. Teachers ***** and moan about $$ but they know what they are getting into when thay trained for and took a job in that field.

Not bad money for working eight months per year.

duroboat...linky, please?

Skywalker,
The mod's have removed this linc before and out of respect for there wishes I will not put it up. But if you do a google search with the info I stated above you will find it. And I will say I looked at Marysville and not all of issaquah.But they all seem pretty close.

"I don't think that teachers get a raw deal. Teachers ***** and moan about $$ but they know what they are getting into when thay trained for and took a job in that field.

Not bad money for working eight months per year."

That's the standard argument. What it doesn't account for are levy failures, increased class sizes (WA's biggest problem in my eyes), and budget cuts that reduce or eliminate increases.

I just looked at Last Stevens, took total pay listed, $18,844,03 divided # teachers 402=

AVG $46, 875.80 year (actually 8 months of work)

$46,87580 / 8+= $5857 per month worked

$5857 X 12 = $ 70,284 avg. working 12 months like most people.

BTW: May job has budget constraints, deadlines and higher work loads every year, thats life.

Again, they knew the $$ situation when the trained and took the job.

If you look in the thread "find out what state employees make"
There was a Teacher on there saying that Levys have no effect on wages they are for operating cost and maintaince only.

Coho: Here are some thoughts on your questions:
-School is not responsible for your child care at any time, if your child is sick you must make arrangements just like if they are on strike you must make arrangements for your childs care. Is it always easy or convenient, no, but it is still your responsability.
- there is no "cut date" for college enrollment, most people apply and many are accepted to college long before they finish their senior year of high school.
-High school athletics is an extracurricular activity. It is a privledge to play, not a right. You could not sue your school for lost opportunity to play any more than the school could sue you if your kid became ineligable and the team had a losing season because your kid couldn't play. Also most sports teams and thier coaches are playing even if the district is on strike. The schools think it is important for the kids to have the opportunity to compete, especially the seniors, even though most will never play after the end of high school.

As far as why teachers strike, well they do it for the same reason anyone strikes, to try to better their own situation. The fact that they are public employees does not mean that they shouldn't try and better thier own situation just like everyone else. They must think the market can handle a pay raise, smaller classes or what ever the demands are. I don't know if that is the case in this situation or not, but the market will decide.
I do know that in many parts of the country school districts are paying more than Washington and some even give substantial signing bonuses (as much as $50,000.00) if a teacher agrees to come teach in their district.

By the way I am not a teacher or nor have I ever been one.

Look, I don't like teacher's strikes any more than most people (look at my home port. I have two kids in school and I've been through it), but the issues to me are:

1) lousy conditions for my kids to be taught in
2) poor quality teachers (my apologies to the good ones that hang in there) because no one wants a profession that starts at <$30k right out of college. Some good people have a passion for teaching and stick with it despite the sacrifice. Some get into it and discover it's not lucrative enough to continue.

I suppose if you don't have kids, or don't give a rats @ss about their education, or make enough to afford private schools, then you might have a different take on it.

...so the message you want to send the potential future educators of your and my children is ......'don't teach unless you want to be broke'?

...better yet, 'don't teach in Washington unless you want to be broke'

Duroboat my comment w/levies is pertinent to operations, i.e., class sizes. They shut down a couple of elementary schools when I was a freshman in h.s. and moved the freshmen class to the high school. I had 40+ kids in some of my classes.

Anyone that thinks teachers in general have it good and shouldn't complain are out of touch. Starting pay scales suck, working conditions are geting more and more difficult, and on top of that they now have to worry about gun totting students. If you balance the responsibilities they carry, and the price they pay to have the job, you have to wonder why anyone would do it. How many teachers do you know that did it for the "money"?

Baddawg-I can accept what your saying, but I wont bow down.

Regarding why a school district decides to continue sports.

"The schools think it is important for the kids to have the opportunity to compete, especially the seniors, even though most will never play after the end of high school."

perhaps another look is.-a source of income for the school district? state, fed, fans, colleges?, ? ? ?

Actually most Seniors dont continue education after graduation, why should that be put on hold.

Hey H20,

Don't forget about the salaries versus the hours that these teachers work!!

How many days a week do teachers have to work compared to others that make the same amount for working 12 months out of the year instead of just 9 months? Look at the prime time they get to take off, plus all the benefits that they also get!

Yep, them poor teachers!

School levies are noting more than a scam to burden ONLY PROPERTY OWNERS! Can you explain why it is that only a property owner has to carry the burden of a school levy tax??

It's nothing more but a fricken rip-off and you know it! Levy monies almost never go to what they were advertised to be used for, and that is a well known fact! You want to talk about school levies then go right ahead, but first you darn well better do your "homework" and find out the "real facts" about school levies instead of just what your friends have tried to sell to you.

I love to talk about the "lies" of the school levies and I can support whatever I say with documentation to back it up! I'll bet that you levy supports can't do the same! I can only use our local school as an example, but you can bet your last tax dollar that 99.9% of all schools do the same with their levy monies!

Do you want to test the waters?

Skywalker
How large are the class sizes in the average college class?

Cowlitzfisherman

H2O,
I will agree that the starting wages leave alot to be desired no argument there. And I do believe that should be addressed. But when I did the math on the Port Angeles dist. only 2.3% of the teachers were making less than $30000 a year and my guess is some of those may be sub's really working part time. Just my opinion but I think the majority are doing Ok for a job that is only P/T at 181 days per year.

30 to 60 k for 1/2 of the household income? married teachers 60 to 120k not to shabby

and summers on the charter boats, wouldn't that be nice.

CFM,
I agree with you on the Levies...

Oh my... I cant believe I said I agree with CFM

It has been unfair to the property owners that dont have kids in school... Time to impose a levy on property owning parents with kids in school... And rent surcharge for apartment owners with kids... payable directly to the school... Besides if it cost more to have kids maybe there wouldn't be so friggen many of them to begin with...


grandpa shouldn't have to pay for the education of a bunch of delinquints anyway...

CFM,
Have you looked at the list at what a UW professor makes. In most cases well over $100,000. But I can almost understand that sense were paying some elementary teachers over $60,000. Looks like if a teacher is willing to asert themselves and try to teach at a collage they can do really well.

Piper,
Good idea

Actually, it isn't a well-known fact. If it was well-known, then you wouldn't have to act like we're a bunch of uninformed dummies..........now would you?

Baddawg

You are so right on!!!

H20,

Did I forget to tell you that my letters to the editor were so factually damaging that our "local million air" that has kids attending our school district attempted to bribe me to shut up by sending me a check for $600 dollars to pay my levy taxes?

Levies are corrupt to there very core!

Cowlitzfisherman

What does the fact they don't work 12 months out of the year have to do with anything? They don't dictate the hours.Pretend they do, and then evaluate their income vs responsibilities. I think most teachers seek out part time work in the summers. College income is irrelevant as is class size. College professors don't teach, they lecture. Much different than handling a fourth grade student.

If thats all it takes I'm in for $50... anyone else?

"How large are the class sizes in the average college class? "

Some of my classes were in excess of 100 students.

How the number of paying, tested-for-acceptance, and generally much more focused on the task at hand students relates to the number of pre-pubescent, HAVE-to-be-there hellions (right alongside my perfect little angels) I have no idea.

It's really a shame that a vast majority feel that teachers
work ONLY 8 months out of the year. That "summer vacation" that teachers get is spent on furthering their own educations (on their own dime), creating lesson plans, purchasing supplies(with their own money), adopting federal programs such as NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND, training, training, and MORE training to keep up with ever changing technology and teaching methods.
Then if they're lucky, a week or two to recouperate from the past school year of dealing with spoiled rotten little cretins who have no respect for anyone, much less someone who has the uneviable task of trying to teach them to be productive members of society. Add to the mix crack babies, gangster wanna be's , guns, drugs, and violence, and then say that teachers are overpaid. I am not a teacher, nor have I ever been, but I have had the pleasure of working side by side with them for 25 years.
Greatly under-appreciated and grossly underpaid, for doing what society appears to be unable to do-SPEND QUALITY TIME WITH KIDS. Just ask yourself, how long could you do what they do?

Piper

Are you that lame? Did you assume that I would have accepted such a low life bribe?

Are you a student who was never taught what the word integrity meant?


Cowlitzfisherman

Piper, lmao! I'm soooo tempted

Funny you should mention that, nookie. Nice post by the way.

I've been told I should go into teaching many times. Now that I'm on the precipice of unemployment again, it's come up again. It all boils down to having to try and teach kids that want to learn while trying to keep kids that don't from impeding the process. Better yet, reach THOSE kids and convert 'em.

I could never do it, and neither could most of the nay-sayers here, I'd bet.

Sorry coho, but high school sports are very revenue negative. In most districts kids have to buy ASB cards in order to participate and then there are booster club fund raisers and selling ads to local buisnesses etc... Some schools have fees for each sport that are paid by the athlete 50 to 200 dollars per year. the ASB funds also cover other activities such as band, debate, deca, choir and many others.
The gate at some football and basketball games may be good, but what about volleyball, soccer, wrestling, golf, swimming, etc... Mainly just the parents and a few friends.

Try this on for size. All levies voted in here in the Mineral Morton school district. Yet the superintendet needs more money so he cuts back on the hours for the teachers assistants and he wants to close the mineral grade school. Mineral generates an excess $30,000 of money each year(above the cost of running it) that goes to support Morton. This is a B school and he is making $120,000 a year(3/4 year) There is just one example of how our monies are wasted by the big shots in the schools.

If you don't think it is happening in your local school you're an idiot.

I have no problem with a teacher getting what they're worth, but I don't understand striking for a measely amount of money. Now they will never be able to regain this loss of money.(unless they get retro)

I don't have a whole lot of respect fot the new school sytems and I'm losing more and more everytime I watch the news.

Isn't everyone underpaid, underappreciated and overworked? From the McDonalds employee to Gary Payton, we are all just pitiful.

I know I'm still looking for that job that pays $100k and doesn't require a full committment.

I think they should just fire the lot and start over! Find some teachers that appreciate their job and the students. The teacher's pensions and healthcare benefits are nothing to sneeze at and we are supposed to feel sorry for them?

The teachers are the one's out of touch.

Glowball, as I have said before, I can think of head better than steelhead. I guess that's another topic.

I do not have any teachers that are friends. My only experience is by helping in my daughters class, who is now in the 5th grade. As a parent I am sensitive to the quality of teaching, and from being involved in class, I see how difficult this important job is. Class sizes are way too big, resources are limited, and parents are never happy. This is off the strike issue you started out with, and as usually happens, the topic has morphed. I am not familiar with the strike, or the demands. You may very well be right that this one is a loser. Aside from that, being a teacher of our children, in my opinion, is one of the most important positions in this country, hence the position.

Golfer

Is that right!


I don' t recall to many fouth graders coming to class with a hangover do you?!

Hello!

What "responsibilities" do they have that we parents don't have? Please explain what they are.

Now add that on to their school salary income and ask us to bleed even more!

Finally you say;

So that's why we pay them double the wages of our teachers…. right?

Cowlitzfisherman

"$120,000 a year(3/4 year)"

I'm not sure how exactly one would go about researching this so I'll imagine...

I imagine that salary is one of the smallest amongst all superintendents in the state....how much do you think the Seattle superintendent makes?? I'll bet its substantially more...

Further, do you think being the superintendent of ANY school district in the state is an eight month a year job? I suppose you are imagining that time as paid vacation? I really have no idea what a 'superintendent of schools' does exactly...do you? If that guy IS taking that time as vacation I guarantee you he is the worst superintendent in the state...no wonder the best superintendent's job he could get was in Mineral....

You been on a campus lately, cowfish.

It's true..........profs lecture, your TA explains the lecture, and YOU learn the material.

They get paid what they do because it's about the prevailing wage, industry-wide. Hardly a mystery................

Cowfish, you are one bitter dude. It ain't that complicated. If you are one of the unemployed, you have my regreats. If you have a job, and it pays less than the steelar amount teachers are getting, get a better job. Maybe you just want the summers off to do more fishing. Now I can relate to that!!

Now I just did a little research and I'm even more flabergasted. The marysville teachers are wanting a total package raise of 11%. Are you $hitting me. Get real. Cost of living is (i think) less than 2%. With the struggling economy they should be happy they're getting anything for a raise.

GREED!!!!!!

Dan

Can't say that I have been on a college campus lately! But when was the last time you were on a normal school campus lately? Have you ever really informed yourself by looking through their books? That is the key to knowledge on this issue!

I have spent probably more hours then most of this board has going through school records concerning school levies. Now if you want to ask me your usual lines of questions about that…feel free to do so!

I have done my homework about school levies! I have folders full of documents to support whatever I say about that…and that one you can bet money on!

Just wait tell you get to see your schools superintendent dragging one of his own board of directors back through a door way screaming that " I can get plenty of dirt on you…just ask the … telephone company! " Then, and only then, will you trully understand how screwed up schoool levys are!

It was almost funny to see such people act in such a childish way! So, if people want to really talk about levies, and what 99.9% of the money is wasted on, I will be more than willing to debate that one!

I am all for educating our kids, but the rest of the fat that only property owners are being force to pay for it pure bull $hit!!!!!

Golfer

The only reason that you may assume that I am "bitter", is because I have spent hundreds of hours going through the schools records, to find the difference between "bull $hit" and lies! Can you say "Public Discloser Act"?

Try doing it sometime, and then tell me how wrong you think I am. Remember, I don't state facts on this board unless I can back them up with documentation!

Opinions are not facts!


Cowlitzfisherman

Just curious, how many kids say I want to go through 4 years of college, so I can be a teacher and make all that money and have all that time off? Most parents would not be all that excited. I have not looked at individual pay scales, but I would suspect that tenure drives the number up, and new teachers make squat. The question is how do school districts attract good people to teach our kids?

starting salary too low... I dont buy that...

Every proffesion whether teacher or dichdigger has a low starting salary... you gotta pay your dues and show your worth... fifteen years ago I started out making $7 bucks and hour drafting... needless to say the payscale goes up drastically from there if you're any good...

Cowlitzfisherman

"I don' t recall to many fouth graders coming to class with a hangover do you?!"

Is your goal to reduce your credibility to zero with that? What the hell does that have to do with anything?

*I've* taught college classes for ****'s sake. Two hours of Geology 101 lab was a breeze compared to having my kid's friend ****** over for dinner for 45 minutes. I can't imagine having her in a classroom all day. Believe me, lecturing to college kids with a hangover is easy. They don't say a word for the whole hour.

I'll tell you what, piper, the teacher that will take $7 an hour can teach yours and cowfish's kids.

Now I never said that is what they should be making... that is what I made... I paid my dues and I do allright now...

All I am saying is that anyone starting out in any profession should not expect to make top dollar...

Amazing, people who have no problem spending thousands of dollars on rigs,boats and trailers,computers,fishing gear,etc., can't stand to see the people entrusted with the care and education of our children make forty to fifty thousand a year.

If waste and incompetence need to be addressed take the necessary action and don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

It's true that wages lost during a strike usually are not recovered but sometimes one has to take a stand just to keep from losing ground.

For those of you who feel govt. agencies need to be held accountable, I agree, but focus on the problem, pay the competent grade and high school teachers a good salary and weed out the rest.

You will have to use the existing system to make a difference, if this proves to much the only alternative is to be mad at and jealous of good teachers making a good living.

Why not work while they negotiate, that way they don't lose anything and more importantly the kids don't lose. Most of the discussion has been about the teachers. What about the kids? I would understand this if they were after a realistic goal, but they are looking for a raise that is way beyond that.

I would be interested in knowing how many teachers started college with the intent of becoming a teacher, and how many had other aspiirations and couldn't cut the curiculum(sp).

As I see it, they all knew what the pay was before they signed the contract.

We (the public) expect way too much from the teachers.

That being a given, if they are intelligent enough to become a teacher, they were aware of the conditions before they signed the contract.

I don't think they are overpayed for what they are asked to do, but I do think they knew what the job was when they took it.




herm

"...that with working parents the financial strain of extending day care, baby sitting, or cost associated to my child not attending school."
Schools are not free government daycares.

"...College professors don't teach, they lecture."
Did you go to college? I had some great professors who went above and beyond with labs, field work, and weekend trips.

I don't think teachers, county workers,state employees etc. should be given a raise across the board it should be given to those who deserve and earn it not all workers in any given area as far as the levies go i don't have any children why should i be paying for other peoples kids to ride on new buses maybe they should let their parents figure out how they get to school. people rely on the government and others to do everything for them when they should be doing more on their own

Teachers don't lose money in a strike! The feds and state mandate the number of school days in a year. All that really happens is that they (and our kids) will be in school later in the summer. Withholding ones labor services as a method of attempting to obtain a better contract is a traditional way to negotiate throughout industry. However, in the public school arena the striking teachers take no financial hit to their annual compensation.

Don't know how I missed this topic for so long, anyone that thinks teachers work 8 months are a little far from reality. I have a sister inlaw that teaches in Marysville and my daughter goes to Lake Stevens. I am 100% behind the teachers. The daycare issue, I never have understood that mentality.. Teachers pay, would you accept a contract that gave you the same pay and said you need to work 2 weeks longer? I don't know how many nights and weekends they are grading papers, planning etc.. The kids might be out of school but teachers are not! For all of you that say they get paid to much I'm willing to bet not one of you could do their job! How about working in a place were a child gets expelled, comes to school the next day as if nothing happen, why?
He happened to belong to the local Tr### and got restaining orders against anyone that could do anything about it.. How come admistrators pay never comes into this topic? Since the new superintedent came to Marysville they have added 10 people under her @ 70,000 a year!! My only issue is that I wish we could get rid of the bad one.. That's a whole new union topic. Just my 2 cents..

Here's one that will frost most of you teacher "supports" rears!

Just because a person is called a "teacher" doesn't make them any smarter or better then the average guy at his own job is. The only reason so many of you think a teacher is so fantastic and underpaid is most likely because of the love of you own children.

As a parent, you just can't bare the thought that your kids are being trained for 8 hours of the day by just some average human being. Your hopes are high for little Johnny so you want your kids to always be in the best hands available. You do everything that is possible to see that your kid has "supper teacher" at their side to teach them what you failed to learn when went to school. You hope that the more you pay them; the better off your kid will be when they grow up.

It always amazes me how teachers and other school related jobs use the kids for their own personal gains. Have you every though of how we got to where we are now? Teachers have never been paid "high wages" since they started teaching in this county. Teachers took on the profession of teaching because they really cared about kids. It was never considered to be a high paying position until recent years when they became so strongly unionized.

It's quickly become all about money for the modern day school teacher now. I live among a "nest" of teachers, and I get to see what they are really like when they are not baby sitting the kids. These same people that some of you hold to be almost god-desses, are really no different then the average person is. From what I have observed in the past 18 years of living among them (they call our area "schoolhouse hill) they are no smarter or better trained then anyone else is in their own field of work. Their kids turn out just like our own kids do, and they all live in a higher life style then most of the rest of the local community does.

Most of them have brand new cars or trucks that cost well over $35,000 sitting in their garages while they drive the "old clunker" to school and public events. I wonder why they would do a thing like that. From what I have observed, the teaching profession is no different then any other profession, except that they get to use your kids a bargaining chip for whatever perks they desire. What other trade can you think of that gets to use your kids as blackmail when they go on a strike or want a pay raise?

Levies just subsidize what the state can't and won't justify giving to the teachers, and they are probably one of the most unfair taxes that this state has. Lots of people don't even know that the majority of states that have the best and highest educational programs, don't even use this states backward, outdated, unfair levy system to fund the needs of education programs. In my opinion, teacher should be paid on their ability to teach and not on the length of time that they have managed to "hold down" their jobs. You have good teachers, you have great teachers and you also have stupid teachers; just like every other profession also has. That's why you will see this state in the near future going to a voucher system. It's the only way that the "deadhead" teachers will ever be weeded out of the educational system in many people's minds.

After one does a public discloser request of a schools records, you will see that much of what "teachers" do wrong is keep pretty darn secret from the public view. Unless a teacher does a "felony act" you are not going to hear jack $hit about it. In fact, most of the time when a teacher has done something really bad, he just moves on to another school district to do it all over again! Kind of sounds like the bureaucratic way that the Vatican did it business. You would be surprised, if you were to ever get to see what really goes on at times in our schools. Teaching, and the profession of teaching is really no different then the rests of the professions that we all do. There are good one and bad ones, but when was the last time you heard of a teacher being fired? The last one I can recall, was the teacher who got caught after she had taken her student home for a little extra "home work". They are just human and they should be paid just like the rest of us are!

They should start out at a low livable salary and get promoted by how well they perform in their job! If they did that, we wouldn't be having such miserable low test score in our schools today!

I can just hear old Skywalker whining again; there goes the rest of my credibility…darn!!

Sorry Skywalker, but the truth is often a hard pill to shallow!
Are you sure you're not a "teacher aid" Skywalker…you sure sound like some of those deadheads at times!


Trophy Mac

You said;


How about the people who are just doing their jobs at whatever it may be each day, and the guy who they have worked with for years comes in the next day and kills 8 of his fellow workers?

Every job, and every profession has its ups and downs and teaching certainly is no different. You just hear more about it because "kids" are often involved in the issues, and "kids" as always, make far better new stories.

Cowlitzfisherman

Sure, you get to be face to face with a professor..............when you're a junior and your major has been declared. At least that's the way it is at our two largest state universities (UW & WSU).

When you're a freshman or a sophomore and you're completing your courses required for graduation, and sitting in a lecture hall with 600 other students, chances are your profs don't even know your name. How could they?


cowfish,

If college profs compete with other profs around the country, at different universities around the country (both public AND private schools) and this competition sets the prevailing wage in the industry....................and you think profs are overpaid. Don't you think the institutions around the country have a better handle on what professors should be paid than you do?

Maybe it's my cranky mood, but this thread is really irritating to me today. Obviously there's a lot of folks on this board that feel school teachers and government employees are a bunch of overpaid whinners. I'll even go so far to agree that sometimes that's the case, but you'd think by this board it's the norm.

Now I have a question for those that are whinning about overpaid teachers and government workers. If they have it so easy, why don't you apply for these positions you're complaining about? What better place to make change than from the inside. All we've heard about is how bad private sector is and employees don't make squat. It never ceases to amaze me how unemployed friends complain how great I have it, yet won't drag their lazy butttts down to apply for one of these "perfect jobs".

Dan
Your questions are a little confusing, so I will answer them as best as I can.

For one thing, colleges and universities do not impose "special levy taxes" upon us. Even though some are state funded, they get to charge tuition fees (user fees) and that makes all the difference. The party that is seeking the benefits is paying for those benefits! When professors are funded privately, I really don't care how much they are being paid because it's not our money.

If people want to pay those huge fees for those kind of schools, I say let them pay it because it’s a "free enterprise". But when they go to colleges that are paid for with public monies, the free enterprise system should not be used in my opinion.

If you talking a bout "private institutions", I would agree that they would have a much better knowledge on what they should or should not be paying their professors. But if they are using public funds, then they must abide by what the public thinks the wages should be. Professors have more training then teachers do, so they should be entitled to higher salaries.

It's really no different then any other profession. You will always make more in a private sector then in a like profession in a public position. The big difference there is usually in "rules", and "benefits" that separate the two positions.

Cowlitzfisherman

i don't know any teachers that only work 8hours a day...most have to grade papers,tests,write lesson plans etc every night for several hours...seems they work more hours in 8 months than most people do in 12....

kind of a circular argument....people complain about bad teachers or unqualified teachers but won't pay enough to encourage more people to
to become teachers...why teach chemistry when you can make more $ working for merck? and you don't have to baby sit a bunch of ill-behaved brats?
no wonder there's such nationwide shortage of teachers....

Born to fish, you said;

That's kind of funny because now, a lot of us "know" who some of those overpaid whinners are! (Find out what state employees make-WDFW Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)

But getting back to your question;

Here's just a few of the reasons for starters why many people do not want to work in those public positions.

Cronyism and nepotism, it runs ramped in many state jobs! You know it, so I will not go any further on those two. Next, people know that they will never be promoted on their abilities of there skills, or how well they do their job. When you work as a public savant, promotion comes with time and not with how successful you have perform your job. In free enterprise, you get paid for what you are worth and not for how long you have been there!

In yes, some people actually do enjoy doing physical work and don't feel dirty about doing it. That is sometimes hard to find in a lot of "public jobs" People dream about owning and running their own companies and business in private enterprise, while people in public services often have nightmares about being number one!

Well take no personal offence BTF, because we already know that you are not one of those "many"! We know that you have a small business on the side, so that tells us that you have ambition. But I am sure that there are lots of "other reasons" why people choose not to work in public positions. These are just a few quick ones that have come to mind to answer your question.


Cowlitzfisherman

I see your point Bob, but you have to remember that our public institutions compete directly with private institutions to draw talent and skill for their teaching positions. If public schools' wages aren't competitive then the result is a bunch of hacks teaching at our public universities.

If you ask me, allowing that to happen is being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
Of course, this is just my opinion........others' opinions may vary.

cfm, as long as you don't make irrelevant comparisons (particularly when it's solely for the purpose of making some smart-@ss remark to insult someone) and you back up your claims with some sort of substantiation, I won't be commenting on your credibility. Deal?

Skywalker

That's sounds reasonable if it goes both ways!

If you people are that brain dead to continue to believe the BS that these teachers continue to spill out, do yourselves the biggest favor in you lives and read the following "perks" and "benefits" that this elite group of workers get! And guess who put all these rules into effect? If you don't work as a teacher or other state employee….you got to ask yourselves…what the hell is going on here!

Read them… and then come back with those bleeding heart statements! What other group of lobbyist have made so many laws that guarantees their own retirement? This only the tip of a huge iceberg! Like your teacher says… do your homework kids!

SECTIONS
"PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO PLAN 1, PLAN 2, AND PLAN 3"

41.32.005
Provisions applicable to "plan 1," "plan 2," and "plan 3."
41.32.010
Definitions.

41.32.013
Substitute teachers -- Application for service credit -- Procedures.

41.32.020
Name of system.
41.32.025
Department's power to determine eligibility.

41.32.032
Membership in system -- Service credit of educational staff associates.

41.32.035
Employer contribution rates -- Computation and payment.

41.32.042
Validity of deductions -- Interest.

41.32.044
Retired teacher may reenter system -- Benefit limitations.

41.32.052
Exemption from taxation and judicial process -- Exceptions -- Nonassignability -- Deductions authorized.

41.32.054
Disability retirement -- Criminal conduct.

41.32.055
Falsification -- Penalty.

41.32.062
Effect of certain accumulated vacation leave on retirement benefits.

41.32.063
Benefit calculation -- Limitation.

41.32.064
Establishing, restoring service credit.

41.32.065
Election to use out-of-state service credit to calculate time at which the member may retire.

41.32.067
Purchase of additional benefits -- Conditions.

"PLAN 1"

41.32.215
Provisions applicable to plan 1.

41.32.240
Membership in system.

41.32.260
Credit for military service or as state legislator.

41.32.263
State legislators and state officials eligible for retirement benefits.

41.32.267
Service credit for paid leave of absence -- Application to elected officials of labor organizations.

41.32.270
Teaching service, how credited.

41.32.300
Limitation on credit for out-of-state service.

41.32.310
Time limit for claiming service credit -- Payments.

41.32.330
Credit for professional preparation subsequent to becoming teacher.

41.32.340
Creditable service, what to consist of.

41.32.345
"Earnable compensation" defined for certain part-time employees -- Adoption of rules.

41.32.350
Purchase of additional annuity.

41.32.360
Basis of contributions to disability reserve fund.

41.32.366
Basis of contributions to death benefit fund.

41.32.380
Source of pension reserve -- Contributions.

41.32.390
Contributions for prior service credits.

41.32.470
Eligibility for retirement allowance.

41.32.480
Qualifications for retirement.

41.32.485
Minimum retirement allowance -- Cost-of-living adjustment -- Post-retirement adjustment -- Computation.

41.32.4851
Minimum retirement allowance -- Annual adjustment -- Persons who become beneficiaries after June 30, 1995.

41.32.4872
Permanent increase for specified beneficiaries age seventy or over.

41.32.489
Retirement allowance -- Annual increases -- Eligibility.

41.32.4931
Additional special pension for former members not receiving social security.

41.32.4945
Limitation as to earnable compensation of member as member of the legislature.

41.32.497
Retirement allowance for members entering system before April 25, 1973 -- Election.

41.32.498
Retirement allowance for members entering system after April 25, 1973, or in lieu of allowance under RCW 41.32.497.

41.32.4986
Members with thirty years of service -- Irrevocable election.

41.32.4991
Permanent retirement allowance adjustment.

41.32.500
Termination of membership.

41.32.510
Payment on withdrawal -- Reentry.

41.32.520
Payment on death before retirement or within sixty days following application for disability retirement.

41.32.522
Death benefits.

41.32.523
Death benefits -- Members not qualified for benefits under RCW 41.32.522 and retired former members.

41.32.530
Options available -- Retirement allowance adjustment -- Court-approved property settlement.

41.32.540
Disability allowance -- Temporary.

41.32.550
Options and allowances on report that disability will be permanent -- Reexamination.

41.32.555
Persons with annual half-time contracts -- Eligibility for benefits under RCW 41.32.550.

41.32.570
Postretirement employment--Reduction or suspension of pension payments (as amended by 2001 c 317).

41.32.570
Postretirement employment--Reduction or suspension of pension payments (as amended by 2001 2nd sp.s. c 10).

"PLAN 2"

41.32.755
Provisions applicable to plan 2.

41.32.760
Computation of the retirement allowance.

41.32.762
Lump sum retirement allowance -- Reentry -- Conditions for reinstatement of service.

41.32.765
Retirement for service.

41.32.770
Post-retirement cost-of-living.

41.32.780
Teachers required to be members.

41.32.785
Options for payment of retirement allowances -- Retirement allowance adjustment -- Court-approved property settlement.

41.32.790
Earned disability allowance -- Eligibility -- Disposition upon death of recipient.

41.32.795
Application for and effective date of retirement allowances.

41.32.800
Suspension of retirement allowance upon reemployment -- Reinstatement.

41.32.802
Reduction of retirement allowance upon reemployment -- Reestablishment of membership.

41.32.805
Death benefits.
41.32.810
Service credit for paid leave of absence, officers of labor organizations, unpaid leave of absence, military service.

41.32.812
Service credit for half-time employment from October 1, 1977, through December 31, 1986.

41.32.815
Vested membership.


41.32.817
Transfer to plan 3 -- Irrevocable option.
41.32.818
Public employees' retirement system members who previously declined membership in the teachers' retirement system -- Transfer to plan 3 -- Irrevocable option.

41.32.820
Refund of contributions on termination.

41.32.825
Reentry.

"PLAN 3"

41.32.831
Provisions applicable to plan 3 -- Plan 3 elements.

41.32.835
Membership in plan 3.

41.32.840
Computation of the retirement allowance.

41.32.8401
Additional payment.

41.32.845
Postretirement cost-of-living allowance.

41.32.851
Options for payment of retirement allowances -- Court-approved property settlement.

41.32.855
Application for and effective date of retirement allowances.

41.32.860
Suspension of retirement allowance upon reemployment -- Reinstatement.

41.32.862
Reduction of retirement allowance upon reemployment -- Reestablishment of membership.

41.32.865
Service credit for paid leave of absence, officers of labor organizations, unpaid leave of absence, military service.

41.32.867
Purchased service credit -- Allocation.

41.32.870
Lump sum payments -- Reentry.

41.32.875
Retirement eligibility.

41.32.880
Earned disability allowance -- Eligibility -- Disposition upon death of recipient.

41.32.892
Restored, purchased service credit under plan 2 -- Transfer to plan 3.

41.32.895
Death benefits.
NOTES:
Numerical designations -- 1998 c 341: See note following chapter 41.26 RCW digest.
Prior acts relating to teachers' retirement: (1) 1943 c 116; 1941 c 97; 1939 c 86, 40; 1937 c 221 (repealed by 1947 c 80 § 70).
(2) 1931 c 115; 1923 c 187; 1919 c 150; 1917 c 163 (repealed by 1937 c 221 § 14).
Employee salary or compensation -- Limitations respecting: RCW 28A.400.220.
Portability of public retirement benefits: Chapter 41.54 RCW.
Teachers in state correctional facilities as members of teachers' retirement fund: RCW 72.01.200.

-----------------------------------------------------

And yes, you can bet your very last dollars that this was all done for the sake of the kids!




Wake up people....it's all about money and you have been sold bunch of BS!

Read them and educate yourselves!

Now you guys should know what "sucker punch" really is!

Cowlitzfisherman

motto ....have union usually better than no have union....

Bodysurf

Yep! Them there teacher unions sure do help them poor dumb kids! When, and if you read these RCW's, you almost want to puke in their faces! But first and foremost, a person needs to read them.....and then they can puke away!

Cowlitzfisherman

no pukin' here.....like i said....union usually better than no union....

well you should be a puken!

For those of you that just are to tired to look up all the perks that teachers get, here are just a couple of them to read! Please do not puke until you are done reading!


RCW 41.32.005
Provisions applicable to "plan 1," "plan 2," and "plan 3."
RCW 41.32.010 through 41.32.067 shall apply to members of plan 1, plan 2, and plan 3.
[1995 c 239 § 101; 1992 c 72 § 4; 1991 c 35 § 30; 1990 c 274 § 16. Prior: 1989 c 273 § 15; 1989 c 272 § 4; 1977 ex.s. c 293 § 19.]
NOTES:
Effective date -- 1995 c 239: "This act shall take effect July 1, 1996, except that sections 301 and 302 of this act shall take effect immediately [March 13, 1996]." [1996 c 39 § 23; 1995 c 239 § 327.]
Part and subchapter headings not law -- 1995 c 239: "Part headings and subchapter headings as used in this act constitute no part of the law." [1995 c 239 § 328.]
Intent -- Purpose -- 1995 c 239: See note following RCW 41.32.831.
Intent -- 1991 c 35: See note following RCW

41.26.005.
Findings -- Construction -- 1990 c 274: See notes following RCW 41.32.010.
Severability -- 1989 c 273: See RCW

41.45.900.
Purpose -- 1989 c 272: "The legislature recognizes that inflation erodes the purchasing power of retirement benefits. Although the benefit provided to state retirees from social security is fully protected, the benefits provided by the public employees' retirement system, plan 1, and the teachers' retirement system, plan 1 provide an automatic cost-of-living adjustment only for persons who receive the minimum benefit.

The purpose of this act is to add provisions to the teachers' retirement system and the public employees' retirement system which will help mitigate the impact of inflation on retirees of those systems. These additional provisions are intended to reflect and implement the following policies:
(1) The minimum benefit is increased in order to provide a more adequate basic standard of living to persons who retired long ago under lower salaries and less generous retirement benefit formulas; and
(2) Retirees whose benefits have lost forty percent of their purchasing power are made eligible for automatic adjustments which are provided in a manner that is consistent with the retirement age and benefit provisions of plan 2 of the teachers' retirement system and the public employees' retirement system."

RCW 41.32.025
Department's power to determine eligibility.
The department is empowered within the limits of this chapter and, with regard to restoration of service credit under RCW 41.50.165(2), to decide on all questions of eligibility covering membership, service credit, and benefits

RCW 41.32.032
Membership in system -- Service credit of educational staff associates.
(1) Any teacher, as defined under RCW 41.32.010, who is first employed by a public school on or after June 7, 1984, shall become a member of the retirement system if otherwise eligible.
(2) Any person who before June 7, 1984, has established service credit under chapter 41.40 RCW while employed in an educational staff associate position and who is employed in such a position on or after June 7, 1984, has the following options:
(a) To remain a member of the public employees' retirement system notwithstanding the provisions of RCW 41.32.240 or 41.32.780; or
(b) To irrevocably elect to join the retirement system under this chapter and to receive service credit for previous periods of employment in any position included under RCW 41.32.010. This service credit and corresponding employee contribution shall be computed as though the person had then been a member of the retirement system under this chapter. All employee contributions credited to a member under chapter 41.40 RCW for service now to be credited to the retirement system under this chapter shall be transferred to the system and the member shall not receive any credit nor enjoy any rights under chapter 41.40 RCW for those periods of service. The member shall pay any difference between the employee contributions made under chapter 41.40 RCW and transferred under this subsection and what would have been required under this chapter, including interest as set by the director. The member shall be given until July 1, 1989, to make the irrevocable election permitted under this section. The election shall be made by submitting written notification as required by the department requesting credit under this section and by remitting any necessary proof of service or payments within the time set by the department.
Any person, not employed as an educational staff associate on June 7, 1984, may, before June 30 of the fifth school year after that person's return to employment as a teacher, request and establish membership and credit under this subsection.

RCW 41.32.035
Employer contribution rates -- Computation and payment.
The amount paid by each employer shall be computed by applying the rates established under chapter 41.45 RCW to the total earnable compensation of the employer's members as shown on the current payrolls of the employer. The employer's contribution shall be paid at the end of each month in the amount due for that month, except as provided in RCW 41.32.013.

RCW 41.32.042
Validity of deductions -- Interest.
The deductions from salaries of members of the retirement system for their contributions to the system are not considered diminution of pay and every member is conclusively presumed to consent thereto as a condition of employment. All contributions to the member reserve shall be credited to the individual for whose account the deductions from salary were made. Regular interest shall be credited to each member's account at least annually.

RCW 41.32.044
Retired teacher may reenter system -- Benefit limitations.
A retired teacher upon returning to service in the public schools of Washington may elect to again become a member of the retirement system: PROVIDED, That if such a retired teacher elects to be restored to membership he must establish two full years of service credit before he will be eligible to retire under the provision of a formula other than the one in effect at the time of his previous retirement: PROVIDED FURTHER, That where any such right to again retire is exercised to become effective before a member has established two full years of service credit he may elect to retire only under the provisions of the formula in effect at the time of his previous retirement: AND PROVIDED FURTHER, That this section shall not apply to any individual who has returned to service and is presently in service on *the effective date of this 1973 amendatory act

RCW 41.32.052
Exemption from taxation and judicial process -- Exceptions -- Nonassignability -- Deductions authorized.
(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (3) of this section, the right of a person to a pension, an annuity, a retirement allowance, or disability allowance, to the return of contributions, any optional benefit or death benefit, any other right accrued or accruing to any person under the provisions of this chapter and the moneys in the various funds created by this chapter shall be unassignable, and are hereby exempt from any state, county, municipal or other local tax, and shall not be subject to execution, garnishment, attachment, the operation of bankruptcy or insolvency laws, or other process of law whatsoever.
(2) This section shall not be deemed to prohibit a beneficiary of a retirement allowance who is eligible:
(a) Under RCW 41.05.080 from authorizing monthly deductions therefrom for payment of premiums due on any group insurance policy or plan issued for the benefit of a group comprised of public employees of the state of Washington or its political subdivisions;
(b) Under a group health care benefit plan approved pursuant to RCW 28A.400.350 or 41.05.065 from authorizing monthly deductions therefrom, of the amount or amounts of subscription payments, premiums, or contributions to any person, firm, or corporation furnishing or providing medical, surgical, and hospital care or other health care insurance; or
(c) Under this system from authorizing monthly deductions therefrom for payment of dues and other membership fees to any retirement association composed of retired teachers and/or public employees pursuant to a written agreement between the director and the retirement association.
Deductions under (a) and (b) of this subsection shall be made in accordance with rules that may be adopted by the director.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not prohibit the department from complying with (a) a wage assignment order for child support issued pursuant to chapter 26.18 RCW, (b) an order to withhold and deliver issued pursuant to chapter 74.20A RCW, (c) a notice of payroll deduction issued pursuant to RCW 26.23.060, (d) a mandatory benefits assignment order issued by the department, (e) a court order directing the department of retirement systems to pay benefits directly to an obligee under a dissolution order as defined in RCW 41.50.500(3) which fully complies with RCW 41.50.670 and 41.50.700, or (f) any administrative or court order expressly authorized by federal law.

CFW. You certainly have your cut and paste skills down. Reading between the lines, I think your biggest issue is the taxes you pay for the school system. What other motivation would you have to be so passionate about this topic? If you pull out the same language from teamster, longshoreman, and other unions, you would see much the same verbage. I don't se the point.

My kids go to a private school, and I harbor no ill will towards paying taxes to improve the quality of teaching and resources for the puplic schools. What better investment in this countries future than teachers, and the supporting resources. Don't under estimate thier challenges or responsibility. I'd like to see them paid more, with higher standards to attract better quality people. This type of argument is better spent on why Bush wants to pour $80 Billion into Iraq.

california will be recruiting more teachers here anyways....so the crunch will only get tighter...

what's the latest housing study say...for snohomish county you have to earn $19 hr minimun to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt...if you got kids you better make a whole lot more than that and forget about buyin' a home...
in king county you need to earn $23 hr to afford to rent a 2 bedroom apt..homes around 300k there...
..silicon valley ran into the same problem a few years ago so they started to assist police,teachers,firefighters etc with buying homes and with big raises or there'd be no one willing to work there...
let's all race to the bottom......or how about import some teachers from india or china?
h1-b visas for all!!!

Now Aunty - Please be nice to dem teachers.

Dey's justa snaggin' some extra cash.

i suhports publik eh-d'u-cash-in!

Better check again AuntyM. Police and fire have binding arbitration. Teachers don't, but I wish they did. They would make far more if they did. I'm married to a teacher. I wish she made 50 k a year. She doesn't even make 40 and she has her masters degree that she paid for not the state. Yeah she did it during those summer months when everbody thinks teachers are cruising the bahamas. I wonder if some of you know how much a masters in education costs? 20K is what we paid. Costs us 225 every month in college loans.

Do we live in mobile home? NO. We have a comfortable life. But she earns every penny and is worth a few more in my eye. Its too bad education has lost such respect in the publics eye. If I had it my way there would be a state wide strike so all you knuckle heads who think baby sitting, and wiping noses is a teachers job would take some responsiblity for your own childs eductation and well being.

Cowlits. Dont waste your time venting, it will fall on deaf ears.

Thanks for your support.
Husband of a teacher

Wow.

Unbelievable.


Questions like, "Why do teachers strike?" Why does anyone strike? Every employed or once employed person here knows that sometimes you have to draw the line. What happened when you were 8 years old and finally realized that the 50 cents your neighbor was giving you to mow the lawn was a bit under what it was worth? You stopped mowing their lawn. In effect, you went on strike. That's how employee / employer relationships function. That's how they've always functioned. That's how they'll always function.

Deal with it.

"Why do teachers ask for an outrageous raise?" Essentially the same deal. Just like buying a used car, you know the seller is going to ask more than what they expect to recieve for it, just like teachers ask for more than what they expect to recieve. Another classic American bargaining technique. Offers and counteroffers, that's the industry and economy of the United States.

Now personally, I don't think that levies have a damn thing to do with the subject of teachers wanting a raise. In fact, they don't have a damn thing to do with teachers wanting a raise, so I don't believe that they need to be mentioned in this post anymore.

How did any of us transition from being paid seven dollars an hour to a sufficient enough income to support our families? We needed a raise. In most cases, raises were given with experience or new job openings, sometimes you're just the best at what you do and you deserve more. Others had to go in and ask the boss for a raise or apply for a new position. Now this is one of the central differences between teaching and any other job. Good teachers don't get paid more than bad teachers. Teachers with 15 years experience don't get paid much more than teachers with 15 minutes experience, once you become a teacher, you can't be promoted up a floor and become an "executive teacher," or a CEO teacher, essentially you're always at the bottom. Because very few raises or opportunities to advance in the field are given, teachers must ask for a raise, whether it be to pay for housing, or greed, or because they think they're job's are becoming more difficult. I don't really care, it's just the way that the system works. You're either offered a raise, or you demand a raise, if you don't do that, you never get anywhere.

The 9 month vs. 12 month debate.

Very valid debate, kind of like whether it's better to work five eight hour shifts, or four tens. You could look at a person working tens and say, "Hey, that ******* only has to work 4 days a week and he still makes the same amount as I do when I work 5!!!" Do the math. Doesn't work that way, and neither does teaching. In my area, teachers are required to be at school from 8 AM to 4 PM. During those eight hours, there is generally about 15 minutes on each end which the teachers have to work on projects, un-hindered by the presence of pupils. How many 10 page papers could you read, edit, write comments on, and record in the grading system in 30 minutes a day?

I could grade one 10 page paper in 30 minutes. Maybe.

So lets say that a teacher two years ago had 32 students in his class. If he took half an hour per student to edit and grade their ten page paper, it would take him about 16 hours to complete his task. Sixteen hours is the equivalent of two full eight hour work days. There goes his weekend. Now lets say that this semester, the same teacher, earning the same salary, working the same job, but with higher taxes, fuel price, food prices, and rent, has 40 students in his class. He assigns the same assignment of a 10 page paper, except this time it takes him 4 hours longer to grade the papers, because he has another 8 students in his class. Why should he not be paid more? I don't really have a clue what any of you do, but I'd almost gaurantee that if you put in an extra 4 hours of work, on a weekend, then you would feel that you deserved more money than if you had not worked those extra 4 hours to be compensated.

I'd appreciate it if one of the teachers on the board could type for us a list of the classes he's taken in the last ten years, since being first hired as a teacher. These classes are taken in the summer, and REQUIRED by the employer. Well that really cuts into the old vacation now doesn't it??? So now what do we have? Say that the same teacher we talked about previously has 40 kids in his class, and a month long REQUIRED class coming up this summer. Now we have a man who works 40 hours a week, 20 hours on the weekend(more than two days work by industry standards), and a month long summer class. Add to that a contract which requires him to work a week after school gets out in the spring, and work a week before school starts in the fall, and what do you have???

A sixty hour work week for 9 months of the year with 40 kids running around.

A one month class in the summer, most likely also 40 hour weeks.

That puts us up to 10 months on and 2 months off.

Now subtract from that 2 months the week in the fall and week in the spring which the teacher is required to attend school without any students, and we're left with ten and a half months of work, and one and a half months of break.

Taking into account the sixty hour weeks during the 9 months which school is in session, having one and a half months off is really not very much, not much more time off than the average person would get by working 12 months a year with no homework on the weekends.

I'm not even going to start with the other responsibilities of a teacher, lesson planning, conferences, extra time spent with kids who need extra help. Don't think for a second that these duties don't add up to another easy 8 hours per week of "donated time."

I'm tired, so let me once again refresh the main points of all of this, attempting to answer the original question of, "why are they striking?"

Sometimes to get a raise, you have to go on strike. Ask millions of Americans who are a part of one union or another. They work just like you and I, and they want more money, don't tell me that you've never been un-satisfied with your pay.

They request an un-reasonable raise from the school district. Simple bargaining tactics, just like you or I would use when selling a boat, the seller asks more than he expects to get, the buyer counters with less than he expects to pay, they settle for a figure inbetween.

I've been trying to avoid throwing the classic, "And just think how important teachers are to your kids" line in here, but it does have a place.

Teachers don't sign any contracts which specify extra work hours, class sizes, or which courses in further education the school district will force them to take in the years to come. They do agree to a 40 hour work week 9 months of the year. Now you just think, hopefully understanding what I've written previously about a teacher's extra time spent outside the 40 hour week, and try to imagine how it would be if a teacher REFUSED to spend a second extra beyond the 40 hour a week contract.

If your child needed extra help after school, it would be REFUSED.

If you wanted to talk to your child's teacher when you got off work at 4 PM, it would be REFUSED.

If a teacher gave your child an F on and paper, and didn't take the time to comment on what to change or how to better it, then what? You can't learn without some help, and an F on a paper tells a child absolutely nothing about what needs to be changed or what he did wrong.

What this all boils down to is that teachers realize that in order to effectively do their job, they will have to give extra time to the students and to the program. Essentially, this is donated time outside of their 40 hour work week(how many of you get done with work on Friday and ask a little kid if he needs help learning to read?) Teachers know that they can just flunk a student if he can't read, and they also know that if they don't help that kid learn to read, then there's a good chance that no one else will.

So here's the deal. Teachers know that they'll work a bit of donated overtime, but if there are growing class sizes and fewer teachers, then teachers are expected to work more and more donated overtime. There will be a breaking point at which the teachers decide they're not getting paid enough. At this point, they go on strike, because you can be damn sure that no school district will say, "Oh, you look over-worked and underpaid, let me give you a raise."

So there you have it, they're on strike, they signed on willing to do a certain amount of work, and their bosses now want them to do more work. More work should equal more pay shouldn't it? I doubt that's a radical idea in anyone's book.

That's why teachers go on strike,

David

Well David I see you looked at this with a perspective of the worst possible senerio for the teachers. I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. Which gives them back "most" of their weekends and now we're back to a 9 month job.

Everyone that goes into a profession should and usually does know what they're getting themselves into.

I to agree that the teachers are important to our kids, but they aren't caring too much about the kids right now. Once again I ask why they don't work without a contract until they get it resolved as to not hurt the kids which are the big losers here.

As someone mentioned prior. What about the seniors? College? What about the kids who have summer jobs already lined out or will be looking come summertime? Think maybe they won't have a good shot at a summer job because by the time they get out of school the jobs will already be filled. HMMMMM never thought about that did you?

These aren't my kids but I do feel sorry for them.

I think we all need to step back and take a good look at what's happening here... Teachers are not the villians that most of these posts paint them to be. You want to know where your money is going? Ask your local school board about ADMINISTRATIVE salaries. Administrators never have to strike, because year in and year out, they get pay raises, usually board approved, that put them miles ahead of any of the highest paid teachers. And what do they do to warrant these raises? Attend meetings and browbeat the people in the trenches(teachers and support staff), for not doing things THEIR way. Then there are bonuses, handed out left and right for merely doing what is expected of them in their lofty positions. I know of one that received $60,000 for overseeing a future relocation of central administration staff to a new building. That is just one of the inequities going on DAILY in your local school districts.I think people should quit bashing teachers, and go to your school board and ask why are we paying administrators so much, when the people that we entrust with the molding of young minds get left further behind.
Why are there so many IMMSU's ( Ineffectual Middle Management Suck-Ups) making on average of 55-60K a year? Because the upper level admin needs to have ***-kissers surrounding them to insulate them from what should be a wary public. In closing, TALK TO YOUR SCHOOL BOARD!

"I remember doing one 10 page essay in school. 90% of the tive we got our papers back before the end of the day. So that blows that whole theory you had completely out of the water. "

Only if you think that one 10 page paper is the ONLY time your teacher had to work past the 8hrs./day he/she was paid for.

I notice Marysville (school district) posts the top 20 teacher's salaries on their official site. It's impressive...I wish I made that much. On the surface it's sort of flies in the face of the teacher's complaints. I WOULD like to see what the bottom 20 are paid, though. Why don't they post that as well?

cfm, you play the baffle 'em with bullsh!t card well. Cut and paste, indeed.

If you could do me a favor and try and support your individual complaints, points, assertions, whatever you'd like to call them, individually, with your sources, it would help a lot. You never know, I might even agree with you on the grounds of your argument.

The old "here's my proof, it's up to you do dig through it and see which paragraph of the code supports each of my 50 anecdotal claims" just doesn't work well for someone with a busy life.

Thanks, I know you'll be supportive.

As a teacher, I find this stuff rather entertaining. I will continue to keep my mouth shut......However, the beginning of this post discussed the state salary schedule for teachers. This is my fourth year and I am making far less than previous posts indicated. However, I'm not complaining. The whole strike issue stems from many issues that I don't expect the common lay person to understand. I'm not going to get into it, but teachers do have a valid point. In the meantime, I'm just going to keep being the best teacher I can be and continue to fish like a crazed maniac....
Cuttie

Cutty, I'm on your side! Don't let the uninformed rattle you!

Cutty, I'm on your side! Don't let the uninformed rattle you!

My sister works for the state as a secretary. She has not recevied a raise of any kind for 3 years. Not enough money in the budget. But the cost of her medical coverage goes up every year. So in effect she makes less now than 3 years ago. She also cannot strike.

Teachers at least were going to get something. Because of that there is no way I could support a teachers strike. If you think I am uninformed oh well.

I rest my case.

welcome to the real world...

not only have I taken a cut in pay my insurance price has almost doubled... time to suck it up... or find a new job...

Teachers and school levies are linked together like a glove is to your hand!

Personally, if given a choice, I would rater pay teachers more, and eliminate the wasteful use of levy monies. If teachers could get their higher salaries, why on earth would they want to tax us more with levies?

I don't have any problem paying for public education through our general taxing system, because its fair and everyone pays into it, but I do have a problem when school districts place special property taxes on a person just because they own a home or land.

Why are school districts allowed to use their personal influence in the local churches and senior citizens centers to convince all the "older people" who have already been given "special" tax exemptions that allows them to escape paying school levies if they make less then $30,000, are over 61 years old, and own less then 1 ½ acres of land?

That puts and unfair tax burden on anyone who makes over 30,000 and just happens to own more then 1 ½ acre of land and is not yet 61 years old. Almost no one who is 61 or older who lives in a small town owns that much property, and that places the majority of the tax burden on everyone else who is under 61 and who lives outside the city or town limits.

As just one example, during our last "local" school levy, a chair person for the schools "levy committee" which does all the "promotional crap" that goes on just happens to also be the son of one of the "riches" persons in our county. The levy "chair person" kids all attended our school district and were heavily involved in all the athletic programs that much of the levy monies are usually wasted on.

After checking with the appraisers office, I found out that this same person doesn't even live within the county borders, nor does he pay and special levy assessments tax for our school district either! In fact, he owns 23 acres with a $450,000+ home just outside of the county line. So yea, you might say that I am a little bit "passionate about this topic". It just amazes me who much a person can discover if they are just willing to spend the time and do the research that is needed to get the "real facts" and not just a bunch of BS!

From my own personal experience (and I have plenty) of researching School levies, Levies are full of corruption! Probably not all levies are corrupted, but in my opinion, the majority of them are. The money that is generated from the majority of them only benefits a few of the students who parents are not willing to pay for their kid's college education.

They hope that their kids can excel and achieve in the after school sport programs so that they can get a free "sport" scholarship so that they won't have to cough up the big bucks for their own kids college education! Many of you may think differently, but that's just the way it works in small town communities.

Four years ago when I had scheduled a meeting with our local school superintendent to discuss the results of what my public records requests had revealed, the superintendent unbeknown to me, had also invited one the schools biggest supporters to my meeting. I knew the guy, so it really wasn't going to effect what I was going to say one way or another.

After I had addressed all of my concerns, and I was ready to leave the office, his friend stopped me in the door way. His friend said, "Bob, if you will just support this levy and stop writing letters to the editor, and vote to support this levy, I will pay whatever the difference will be in your property taxes" I couldn't believe that he said it right in front of two office workers and in front of the schools superintendent!

What really bothers me even more is the fact that the superintendent did nothing to stop his friend from doing this illegal act! He just smiled! In this state, rather people know it or not, it is illegal to attempt to bribe a person to sway their vote! This guy was putting me in jeopardy by asking me to sway my vote in favor of what he wanted to happen by paying my levy taxes!

I told the guy that it was wrong, and if I did such a thing, I could not live with my self! I also told him that it may be great for me, but what about the other poor guy who won't be getting there taxes paid. He just smiled and said that they would have to work that one out for themselves!

Two years later, after several factual letters to the editor, the richest guy in our county, sent me a check for $600! He writes on it; for ….property taxes! I will not accept a bribe from any man, so I sent it back to him and told him that he could send it to the school district in both of our names and use it for an educational scholarship because I was not for sell! I also said that the money is not to go to any "sport" related scholarship if he joined my name to the donation. I believe in education, but the cost of sport is up to the parents of the kids who participate in the events!

I don't know what he ever did with his check, but I do know that I still don't have any problems sleeping at nigh!

So yes, I do know more then most do about school levies and teacher's perks and benefit! I always do my homework!

How many times have any of you ever went through a schools finical records to see how much of a levy tax actually went to what it was supposed to be used for? It always goes directly in the schools "general funds" and then they hire "extra teachers" and enhance their sports programs! I see them hiring a cough's assistant for the first year. The next year the assistant becomes a PE trainer, the following year he promoted to PE-heath advisor and the games never ends! The more kids that come to attend their school for the "sports" programs, the more money the district gets for each kid from the state.

Remember, the state gives the matching funds for levies, so whenever they pass a levy, they are almost doubling what a levy was originally run for. And where do you think that all that extra money goes to?

Do the homework, and then come back and tell me were I am wrong!


Cowlitzfisherman

I also know a number of teachers. And I never said my sister was complaining. but when I see the unemployment numbers and see how many people are lossing thier jobs at Boing and other places. All I can think is that maybe the teachers should say to themselves,"self at least I have a job".

May this is not the best time to put a further drain on the econmey.

By the way I do infact vote in favor of all school levies. I just don't think now was the best time to do something like this.

CF, if all levies are corrupt, then could it be that the authors of said levies are the ones who are corrupt also? Like I said before, and you also noted, ADMINISTRATION are to blame for the state of education, not the people expected to implement their crooked agendas. Teachers are only the most visible targets, and are innocent. ASK YOUR SCHOOL BOARD! They are the ones which allow such travesty, and should be removed the same way as they were inserted, by election. Most of these boards are in the pockets of just about every superintendent in the state. Nepotism, cronyism, and just plain arrogance are their order of march.Time for ALL taxpayers to start asking REAL questions about school administration, before all the qualified and competent teachers do leave for California!

cfm, thanks for that. Not that you have any obligation to care about what I think, but that was much easier for me to stomach.

"Almost no one who is 61 or older who lives in a small town owns that much property"

Then it's "almost" no votes, and it's "almost" no increase in your taxes, right? That would be MY taxes too, by the way. I'm certainly not exempt by those criteria you listed.

Your biggest beef seems to be the cost of athletics, from your last post. Good luck shooting that stuff down, man. Whew.

Most people just don't have the time to look into this stuff, and frankly how many people with kids in a school district want to go around publicy and call foul on programs that their kids are involved with?

And that guy that lives outside the county, but has kids in your school district? What's that about? Why are his kids not in his county's schools? I assume it's probably a special case of proximity to schools, but it seems there should be an exception that allows people to pay into their own district....either that or they don't get officialy involved with stumping for them...or both. That's pretty screwed up if you ask me.

BW, I Interpreted your post wrong... I aggree 100% with what you are saying...

Skywalker

No! That is not right!

You said;
"Then it's "almost" no votes, and it's "almost" no increase in your taxes, right? That would be MY taxes too, by the way. I'm certainly not exempt by those criteria you listed."

The biggest number of voters who are over 61 lives within the city limits. There are not that many voters who live outside the city limits that are over 61. They enjoy the perks of doctors and stores that are close by.

That is why the schools wine and dine these people! They vote, but they will not have to pay any levy tax!

Is this any clearer?

Cowlitzfisherman

Jeeeeez and I'm the dumb one. Pull your monkey head out of you know where and pay attention. NO ONE is saying that the teachers don't deserve to get payed for what they're worth. I want to know why they aren't giving two $h!ts about the kids through all this. You teachers on this board keep saying you went into this to make a difference, or because you enjoy helping kids. If thats the case I'm betting at least half of the ones striking would say the same, but they're actions are not backing that up.

Also why don't we get rid of the ten year and cull out the worthless teachers and then we'd be even more willing to give you more money.

wasn't there an initiative ,that the legislature derailed, that was just passed that would have given teachers raises? kinda like cola?

and forget about the whole 'what about the children?' thing....if we as a society cared about children we'd complain about a system where both parents NEED to work 40+ hours a week to survive instead of bein' able to spend time with 'em...instead of letting daycare raise them...

If my job required the education a teachers does,no way in hell I work for less than 40k to start.

cfm, sorry, I reread your post and see where I lost track of your point. Duh.

I guess my point in all of this is that frankly I'm willing to live with it. I have kids in school and I want them to have the best available curriculum and selection of extra-curricular activities possible. I have a pretty crappy experience with levy failures as a kid and don't want them to go through it themselves.

It may not be the right way to do it, but if it's getting me what I want I'll live with it.

What I don't understand are the exemptions on federal income tax for having kids...why do we get checks for having kids? Because eventually they'll be tax payers?

That my friend... Is the American Way...

I must admit, there are times that fat, dumb, and happy suits me just fine.

As I settle deeper and deeper into these geezer's shoes, it just seems the only way to fly.

Now, get off my lawn, ya punks!

Glowball,


Your logic is faulty. Your logic is that teachers should care more about the kids then their own lively hood. Well I'm a paramedic. And I care about people and I love helping people, but I also do it for a living. The public always screams how teachers should sacrafice their own well being for the kids. Truth is they are just making a living for themselves. Why don't they teach and negotate at the same time you ask. I'm sure they have been negotating all summer long to no avail. Give teachers binding arbitration and it will all be a mute point.

Remember the vote we had two years ago to make cost of living raises mandatory for teachers. Well the first year instead of a raise the teachers had to work 4 extra days. If they didn't work the extra days, no raise. Thats not a raise, thats more work for more money, they still make the same each hour. This year for their cost of living raise the school used it all paying more for health insurance. I don't have a problem with that. Health insurance is sky rocketing.

Okay, here I go..........

On one hand you make a good point. We do not place our childrens education as our highest priority. We will support some punk sports hero's exhorbitant salary, but not a raise for teachers...... BUT

If teachers really want to see their salaries increase they need to stop fighting the "pay for ability" issue that so many want (including myself). Too many worthless teachers are sitting pretty because of tenure and strong-arm union tactics. If they perform well (easily measured) they should be rewarded for it. If they don't, they lose their job. If this was to be supported by the teachers and the unions, many, many more people would be willing to see salary ranges increase.
Teachers DO know what they are getting into and by going to school to get a teaching degree they are in effect accepting the status quo. Any increase in their pay and/or benefits are then a "happy surprise".
They should not hold our childrens education "hostage", which is exactly what they are doing when they strike..... But they say the children are their #1 priority?
They also need to be vocal when a district builds schools for millions when a far less fancy building could educate just as well and leave plenty for better books, supplies, etc.....
I for one never attended a school that looked even CLOSE to what some of these fancy structures look like, and I received a very good education.......
Teachers that go on strike, IMHO, should be ashamed of themselves...... They are doing nothing more than teaching our kids that if you do not get your way, pout and throw a fit and then you may get your way.. No matter who suffers.
I am in the medical profession (RN) and I will not and have not ever joined in a strike. I have belonged to Nursing Unions (it was required at some hospitals I worked at) but made it clear from the onset that if a strike were to occur, I would not participate. Not trying to place a halo on my head, but patients come before anything, and striking ultimately hurts the patients and places them at risk....

Those that bemoan the teachers salaries, etc., need to also take into consideration the amount of time off, sick time, leave of absense (for cont. education/sabattical), medical benefits, retirement, that they recieve. It is much sweeter than most get in the private sector..... Again, I agree that Americans in general expect the best education for their children but do not want to put out the bucks for it.... But at around $10,000.00/child now the yearly average cost to the taxpayer to educate them, we are not getting our monies worth...... Tossing more $$ their way is not going to improve that.....

MC

Oh come on now Nookie..... Some of them yes, many of them...no.
The fact that they are paying for supplies out of their own pocket is true. That says more for the school district and how they allocate the $$ they receive than it does teachers being underpaid. Hundreds of thousands on sport programs, but pennies for teaching materials... Raising taxes and levies is not going to fix that problem. I work in the medical field and many times I have purchased equipment that I use in my work OUT OF MY OWN POCKET because what the hospital supplies is sometimes broken or low quality. It is still MY choice. No one forces me to do it. Should I scream that I need to make more money because of a choice I make?

As far as spending the summers the way you describe? I have personally known (very well in fact) 5 teachers in the last 12 years and only one of them spends summers the way you describe. 3 were females and as second income earners enjoyed the summers with their children, one (studied and worked) male, and one male that played all summer long......

Refer to my other post regarding americans not placing education at the top of priority list if you care to read my thoughts on that subject....

MC

Well, finally made it through all these posts and since I have been pinned as the boards official racist/biggot I will bring up the subject that no one else here has, and teachers will argue to their death in support of...........
Educating the children of illegal immigrants.

There, I said it. It has long been the bane of California's education system and is causing it to fall apart. Arizona state is bankrupt for the very same reason. Oregon is not far behind, and Washington has got to have the problem as well. Growing up in Everett in the early 60's thru the 70's, I cannot say I remember ever encountering hispanics. Now when I visit all I have to do is go to any Wal Mart and I am amazed at the percentage. Don't get me wrong, this is not a slam on hispanics.... Just a fact that they are welcomed here for cheap labor, illegals cannot pay taxes as they have no SS card or proof of residency, yet we educate their children and the teachers will argue to the death that it is our duty to do that. Same in the Health care profession. I would not ever refuse them healthcare, as that would be inhumane. But when they are discovered here illegally, they need to go back home. Our 1st priority is to our own "citizen" children, and if we cannot afford to give them a good education, then we cannot afford to educate another countries children... Simple as that...... Does anyone realize that if you are illegal and pregnant, you wait till you are in labor and go to the hospital... have the baby.... and you have guaranteed citizenship? The baby born here is a citizen, so the parents are allowed to stay (to take care of their American baby of course)..... It happens on a daily basis at the hospital I work at..... We refer to them as "No Doc's" which means no Doctor (or prenatal care) and no documentation (illegal)......

Our system is and will continue to fall apart.....

I am stating facts as I know them, if I offend anyone with my statements I apologize for offending them, but not making the statements......

MC