#215793 - 10/20/03 10:27 PM
which black box
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Returning Adult
Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Edmonds
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I have been doing alot of reading on black boxes as of late. I have two scotty downriggers and was thnking of adding a "black box" to the setup.
Does anyone have an recommendations for a particluar brand or are they all the same?
Thanks
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#215794 - 10/21/03 09:28 AM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 610
Loc: wa., usa
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C&B, My recommendation would be to put the money it would cost for a BB towards tackle and scents! IMHO it's WAY over rated. Find bait, find fish, good presentation, catch fish! I fish regularly with a guy on this board that had a BB ( notice I said HAD) and saw no difference in fishing with it than without it. There are tons of gadgets out there that say they will catch you more fish and I think most of thwem are more hype than actual substance. Like I said, find bait, find fish, good presentation, catch fish.
In all actality, just how far through the salt water at 150 feet can that .6vdc voltage be felt? for arguments sake, let's say 10 feet.....maybe! Well I guess that means you already found the fish if they are only ten feet away from the down rigger cable and I want a fish that close to be interested in my GSBT not my downrigger cable!!
IMHO anyway.
Good luck with whatever you go with though, hope it all works out for you!
I thought about getting one for my boat as well for a while, but decided against it. Especially after checking my inherent voltage on the cables and found it to be running at .68 vdc. Did you check your voltages to see where they are at without a Black Box
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M Go Blue!
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#215796 - 10/21/03 11:57 AM
Re: which black box
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 1191
Loc: Everett WA
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look at the Pro Troll black box. It is available from Outdoor Emporium in Seattle or Cabelas on line (Outdoor had some pretty good sales last year durring the outdoor and boat shows). As far as how they work, well you still have to know how to fish, but I also know that commecial and many charter guys won't fish without them. I first learned about fishing with them on a charter out of Tofino on Vancouver Island. After talking with the skipper for awhile I was convinced and he certainly was a proponent of the system. He was a commercial troller before starting to run charters and he said his experience was that the box definately helped, especially when the fishing was alittle slow. He was also pretty protective of his settings. I guess he was like most of us, helpful to a point!!
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bawddawg, no biscuit!
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#215797 - 10/21/03 03:36 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 965
Loc: Seattle, Washington
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I respectfully disagree with Umrules and Finaddict. It all depends on your boat!
I bought the Pro Troll. It does 90% of what the Scotty does and can be had for $79 on sale.
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#215798 - 10/21/03 03:43 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 972
Loc: Moses Lake
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One thing I heard was black boxes were more critical with fiberglass boats than with alum boats (provided there's no grounding problem).
Said alum boats had a current that was close to what was needed to attract fish... and a box didn't add that much to it.. Fiberglass boats.... different story. They needed help.
Also one way to counteract an electrical problem is to have your lure about 30 feet back from the downrigger wire.
Also, if you're not using a downrigger... then theres' not much help from a black box. It needs the downrigger wire to get a current down to around the lure.
So.. I partly agree with UM.. but for a different reason. He didn't have much of a problem to start with.. so probably didn't get much of a gain...
Do think black boxes help though...
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zen leecher
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#215799 - 10/21/03 04:16 PM
Re: which black box
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River Nutrients
Registered: 05/06/01
Posts: 2959
Loc: Nisqually
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I think BB's are more helpful when fishing at greater depths, like for blackmouth, when you are putting your 'rigger ball down 150-200'. I don't think BB's are necessary if you are fishing in less than 100' of water.
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Carl C.
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#215802 - 10/21/03 07:41 PM
Re: which black box
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1189
Loc: Marine Area 13
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I recommend checking your boat to see how hot she is running first. Then decided if you want to purchase one- depending on how you feel about running DRs at your current level.
Keep in mind, your natural voltage changes regardless... it is a matter of time. Check all your connections, zincs and DR wires frequently. It will help find "hot" spots (You'll need to change DR wires at least once every two years- depending on usage). Research has shown that the fish are attracted to the electical current which will bring them closer to your gear. Depending on the salinity, this could be upwards of 50 feet! However for the Sound, the consensus is around 25 feet.
Secondly, there are times when you will want a lower voltage than the "standard" .600v. Large returning fish (30# plus) absolutely detest the higher voltages. Because of their size, they are super sensitive to the current. You'll want to run down around .500 to .530 for the biggins..
On the flip side, Blackmouth like a little higher juice. A rule of thumb is .001v for every foot of wire out past 100 feet. So if I have 180 feet of wire off the spool, my box is set to .680v
The best part is experimenting a little. Each boat runs a little different than the next guys...
Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead without one in my boat.
_________________________
"If you are not scratchin bottom, you ain't fishing deep enough!" -DR
Puget Sound Anglers, Gig Harbor Chapter
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#215803 - 10/21/03 10:41 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 610
Loc: wa., usa
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Jeffhead, I am not doubting your information on how far from the cable you can feel the induced voltage, just wondering where you get that from. I read about two of these studies that were conducted on positive ion attraction of fish, and one was conducted in a 10 by 10 tank the other in a 4 by 8 tank. That is why I came up with 10 feet. In fact one of the studies was actually conducted with catfish.
So this leads to an interesting question: Just how far from a downrigger cable can .6vdc be felt by a fish. Being that there is virtually no current involved here. Even if it were as much as 25 feet as DR suggests, you still basically need to find the fish first, and at that point nothing is more important (in my opinion) than presentation of your offering.
I don't disagree with anything posted here at all, just stating what I feel.
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M Go Blue!
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#215804 - 10/21/03 10:54 PM
Re: which black box
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Juvenille at Sea
Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 115
Loc: federal wannabea way
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Just another thought on DR's comment. Unless you want to be continually testing your boats voltage at your wires, using the "natural voltage" setting will show instantly what the current voltage is. When I originally mounted my d/r's I checked the output and it was O.K. Later that year I was having unusual problems catching fish. After I mounted my B/B, it immediatly showed a reading of 1.700. It took a while to locate the culprit (a d.c. plug filled with water, on an aluminum boat). Now at the very least I can check my voltage at the flip of a switch.
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#215806 - 10/21/03 11:19 PM
Re: which black box
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1189
Loc: Marine Area 13
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Oh Grandpa... Must have been the fish gods! Have you checked your voltage? Would be curious to know what you are running at.
JR... I totally agree with presentation being rule number 1.
I don't feel the BB is as much of an attractant as it is a "comforter cushion." A fish is going to hit if it wants to, but I like the confidence knowing I am in a safe zone.
_________________________
"If you are not scratchin bottom, you ain't fishing deep enough!" -DR
Puget Sound Anglers, Gig Harbor Chapter
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#215808 - 10/22/03 03:10 AM
Re: which black box
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Returning Adult
Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 368
Loc: Florida
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Not ever using a "BlackBox" and reading all of this stuff makes me curious...... Of course, we all know about the sensitive lateral line of fish, and common sense would say that current in the water (too much) would turn fish away... My thoughts are that current travels in water by way of electrolytes (salt, magnesium, calcium, etc.) and being as the sound is laden with these electrolytes I cannot see any current as small as what you folks talk about (.06volt) traveling very far without dispersing and thus the voltage dwindling to nothing..... Freshwater may be a different story altogether, since there are no (or very little) electrolytes in it the current would not travel very far, if at all..... If one has plenty of zinc nodes on their boat, would that cause more voltage to spread behind and below your boat, or less?? Also, someone said fiberglass boats were worse than aluminum.... How? If my DR is mounted to a fiberglass gunnel, since fiberglass is not a conductor of electricity, how can "bad" electrical charge travel down the DR cable???
Can a volt/ohmmeter be used to see how much abherrent electricity is leaking from my aluminum boat???
Boy, so many questions!!
MC
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MasterCaster
"Equal Rights" are not "Special Rights"........
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#215809 - 10/22/03 07:54 AM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 610
Loc: wa., usa
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Mastercaster, Checking your voltage is easy to do. Use a digital volt meter, put your boat in the water head out away from other boats and drop your downrigger ball down about 10 feet. Turn all of your electronics off in the boat and measure with the negative meter lead on the Neg Terminal of your battery and the positive lead to your downrigger cable. You should read somewhere between .5 and 1.0 vdc. If not you need to check you zincs. Now turn on all of your electronics one item at a time. You shouldn't see much of a change as you turn these items on. If you do you probably have a grounding problem with a particular item. When all of your electronics are on, you should still be between .5 and 1.0 vdc.
Make sense?
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M Go Blue!
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#215810 - 10/22/03 11:00 AM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 972
Loc: Moses Lake
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Grandpa... must have been your personality is pleasing to the fish!!! Whatever it is, better not change it.
Never did ask you if you fish downriggers in your boat or mooch.
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zen leecher
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#215811 - 10/22/03 12:48 PM
Re: which black box
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Returning Adult
Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 296
Loc: Edmonds
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Thnaks for all the info, I am beginning to sort out some of the things I have been thinking.
I will test the voltage in the next few days and get back to the board.
Reason I ask. I bought a new boat this year and I did not catch nearly the numbers of fish I have caught in the past couple of years. Everything was the same, presentation, gear, speed, just not nearly as many fish. I am obviously looking for things that could make the difference.
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#215812 - 10/22/03 01:12 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 965
Loc: Seattle, Washington
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Cast and Blast- it will be interesting to hear the results after you test the boat. My experience is similar to Elkrun's (except I don't play mean tricks on my friends ): my boat has a natural charge of .83 volts. I can catch the small fish and a few silvers too, but hadn't done very well on the bigger kings until I installed the BB. Generally speaking I think the people who don't believe in the magical BB are the one's who don't have a problem with their boats...but then again that's just my ¢2 worth.
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#215813 - 10/22/03 01:30 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 531
Loc: Olympia, Wa
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I've kind of thought like MC, with a glass boat I don't have a connection to the wire of any kind, plus with Cannons the cable is isolated from the boat being the riggers are made of plastic. However, I know that you can get a voltage charge from two dissimilar metals in water, especially salt water. The first battery invented was exactly that. So, the only exposed metal I have is zinc anodes, and the inside of my outdrive since the outside is painted. Now, I could really see this in an aluminum boat where everything is connected in some way be metal and easy for a ground loop to exist and hold a charge, or even generate a charge.
So, is the problem more with aluminum boats or glass? If I have no current, I may actually need one to actract fish!
_________________________
Organized people are just too lazy to look for things.
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#215814 - 10/22/03 01:40 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 972
Loc: Moses Lake
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problem is more with glass boats. Alum's are close to the "zone" just as rigged.
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zen leecher
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#215815 - 10/22/03 03:05 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 759
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
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Originally posted by Zen Leecher aka Bill W: problem is more with glass boats. Alum's are close to the "zone" just as rigged. I have heard the opposite. aluminum boats have bigger problems than fiberglass. I will not fish for kings without the BB. The very first day I had it in the boat, I decided to wire it into the battery while trolling for blackmouth with my brother. He was driving the boat while watching the downriggers, while I was under the console running wires. After an hour of fishing we hadn't had a hit. When I finished I turned it on and it said my "natural current" was .89.... .6-.65 is ideal for salmon. I switched to applied current (where you control it) and dialed it to .65 my hand wasn't 2 inches away when my rod buckled and I boated about a 9 lb blackie. A few minutes later my brother had his and we were done. I know this could have been coincidence, but it happened several times this summer too. (nevermind the several times I'd unplug someone just for fun...) Once, I forgot to hook it up while trolling at Umatilla Reef, fished for nearly 45 minutes before I noticed. I hooked it up and dialed it in.... 28lb fish the net within 15 minutes. There are plenty of other examples I could give. Too many for it to not work in my opinion. If you boat's natural current is close to .65 you wont notice much of a difference. If its way hot like mine, it'll make all the difference. Incidentally, my brother bought a new hewescraft searunner like mine and had the same problem trolling at Pt. Defiance... few hookups. After seeing it work in my boat, he bought one, caught more fish... you decide for yourself.
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#215816 - 10/22/03 04:58 PM
Re: which black box
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1189
Loc: Marine Area 13
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Actually, the opposite- a aluminum boat will outfish a glass boat any day. The main reason is not having to deal with the BB because a alum boat has better natural voltage.
Steve, what are you running at? You gotta have something.... If you are below, you'll wanna juice it up.
_________________________
"If you are not scratchin bottom, you ain't fishing deep enough!" -DR
Puget Sound Anglers, Gig Harbor Chapter
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#215817 - 10/22/03 05:01 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 972
Loc: Moses Lake
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DR,
I was hoping you'd chime in on the glass boat vs alum boat question.
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zen leecher
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#215818 - 10/22/03 06:53 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 531
Loc: Olympia, Wa
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Hmm, gotta digital voltmeter, gonna have to check it next time out. Ok, now I'm curious.....>>!!
_________________________
Organized people are just too lazy to look for things.
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#215820 - 10/22/03 07:28 PM
Re: which black box
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 1189
Loc: Marine Area 13
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C&B,
Back to your question... The main difference is the cost. The Scotty will run you about $300 and the Pro Troll in under $100. Another difference is the contact sleeves. The Scotty has stainless tubes flared on the end whereas, the Pro Troll model has coil types. This are not very idea. As a matter fact and I heard of a couple problems with the coil sleeves causing the wire to fray or kink. You can always order the stainles tubes from Scotty and transfer them over.
Another difference will be the Scotty model has a pulse mode which changes the current from natural voltage to induced voltage in 10 second increments..
Last but not least, is the shape. The Pro Troll model is square in shape and smaller. They mount on the dash. The Scotty model is cylinder shaped and can be mounted in the dash (or on it)
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"If you are not scratchin bottom, you ain't fishing deep enough!" -DR
Puget Sound Anglers, Gig Harbor Chapter
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#215822 - 10/23/03 02:26 AM
Re: which black box
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Returning Adult
Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 368
Loc: Florida
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Originally posted by umrules: Mastercaster, Checking your voltage is easy to do. Use a digital volt meter, put your boat in the water head out away from other boats and drop your downrigger ball down about 10 feet. Turn all of your electronics off in the boat and measure with the negative meter lead on the Neg Terminal of your battery and the positive lead to your downrigger cable. You should read somewhere between .5 and 1.0 vdc. If not you need to check you zincs. Now turn on all of your electronics one item at a time. You shouldn't see much of a change as you turn these items on. If you do you probably have a grounding problem with a particular item. When all of your electronics are on, you should still be between .5 and 1.0 vdc.
Make sense? Cool! Thanks so much UM!!! I will have to try that. I used to guide (6 years) and I am a true believer in fish sensitivity to many things. I could be catching fish left and right (especially Walleye) and then all the boats would show up and the bite would go off.... After many years I figured it was all the folks running their fishfinders. Sound waves (especially the high freq. of bottom finders) pounding down on fish has to affect them, since their lateral line is their "hearing" tool..... The old flashers running at 50 hertz did not seem to bother them, but the fish finders funning at 200 hz sure seemed to...... MC
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MasterCaster
"Equal Rights" are not "Special Rights"........
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#215823 - 10/23/03 09:32 AM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 610
Loc: wa., usa
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Master, That is why when you measure your voltage you will want to be away from other boats. If boats are close enough to you, their electronics and Zincs will change the voltage on your cables also. If you want to check that sometime, keep your meter with you and troll over real close to another boat. Watch your meter reading change when you get close enough!
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M Go Blue!
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#215824 - 10/23/03 11:22 AM
Re: which black box
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Eyed Egg
Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 9
Loc: Central New York
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I've been following all the Black Box Posts with great interest. After reading all the stuff on the Pro Troll web site I checked out my glass boat as they discribe. My natural voltage was .485, so I cleaned the zincs and tested again. Now it's .425. My outboard is a 2002 Mercury 4 stroke and it has aluminum anodes so I guess my glass boat is going to be low on it's own.
Last Saturday I fished fresh water for trout/salmon. I ran lines close to the cable and also set them back about 30'. I caught fish at all depths (55' deepest). Of the 3 boats that fished together I caught most of the Lake Trout (14). My total catch for the day was 30+ fish- 14 Lakers, 2 Rainbows & more than a dozen small Salmon 12-13"(landlock Atlantic's). The total catch for each boat was in the 30 fish range each but the other two caught bigger Bow's and a couple Brown's. I'll be going out again this Saturday and dink around with various distances from the cables and make note of the best producers. I don't know of anyone here locally using the Box so getting info on how it's affecting the catches here in non-existant.
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stinger
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#215825 - 10/23/03 12:44 PM
Re: which black box
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Returning Adult
Registered: 10/01/03
Posts: 263
Loc: WA
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I talked to Zen about this before and having a fiberglass boat myself am very interested in this topic, I have still yet to check my cables (been river fishing haven't had the boat out but may get out here today definately this week sometime). So is it better to be too low than too high?
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"Nope, we're just fishing!"
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#215826 - 10/23/03 01:33 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 972
Loc: Moses Lake
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Downriggin's the local expert on this and a person to listen to (in my humble opinion).
Too low is probably as bad as too high. Neither works.
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zen leecher
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#215827 - 10/27/03 10:55 AM
Re: which black box
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Eyed Egg
Registered: 10/07/03
Posts: 9
Loc: Central New York
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..........well I fished this past Saturday as I said I would. We had high winds and could only fish till noon so doing all the compairing that I wanted to was cut short. Anyway....... My glass boat natural voltage is .425, no BB used (I don't have one yet) I ran 4 downriggers. Two center with sliders (cheaters) and two with out. Set backs were checked 2 ways, less than 15' and greater than 25'. We caught fish on all four downriggers and at all settings. Caught 10 fish total, 4 browns, 4 salmon, 1 rainbow & 1 laker. There was no real pattern established other than lure size (small - 1 3/4" to 2"). The two center downriggers with the short lines did get more fish than the outer ones but not enough fish caught to draw any conclusions. Deer season has started here in New York so fishing will be on hold until late December and by then all my fishing will on the surface using plannerboards. Downriggers will start back up in late May so till then the BB issue for me will be a read and listen activity. This winters Sportmens Shows will be a good opportunity for me to talk with some of the charter captains and here what they are doing (if anything at all)with the BB in our local waters. Thanks for all the information that I got from this board. I'll be reading it frequently.
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stinger
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#215828 - 10/28/03 12:33 PM
Re: which black box
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Spawner
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 531
Loc: Olympia, Wa
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Maybe this is part of the reason that guys in the Midwest string their downriggers with 250lb. mono?
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Organized people are just too lazy to look for things.
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