was down on the cowlitz river, and saw guys useing 10 foot leaders. talked to one guy who called it flossing the fish,it sounded like snagging to me. it may not be illegal but is it ethical?? i am undecided...

Oh crap. now you just had to go and post that didnt you. Here we go again.


I dont want to right an essay but on the question of whether or not its ethical that just depends on if your a purist or not. To some people your a scum sucking slime ball if you floss fish, to some people your only your a scum sucking slime ball on the internet but what they do and what they say are two different things. To some people its ok to floss surplus hatchery fish but your still a scum sucking slime ball if you floss native fish.

So is it ethical? That depends on whether you are a person that knows how to catch fish or a person that doesnt know how to catch fish? Most people that know how to fish will tell you it is unethical.

People also disagree on the legality of flossing. I personally believe its legal seems how for instance a gamie on a zipper was explaining to people how to floss silvers in a small river when I asked him if he wanted to come up to a hole of mine and watch me snag some fish. He of course hopped in his truck and followed me up to my spot where I proceeded to catch fish (not snag) using a jig. He looked at me surprised and told me he did not know these fish actually bit. Imagine that!

By the way he had polarized sunglasses on and I showed him the fish before I caught them. He watched the fish come up and nail it!

bustin,

Just a thought to help you make your decision. The guys you saw "flossing" don't have any ethics. If they did or they ever stopped long enough to ask the same question you posed, they might have to admit they are wrong and be ashamed of their unsportsmanlike behavior. They are misguided and confuse meat fishing with sports fishing. The difference between the two is there are rules in sport. Yet they call themselves sportsmen even if they fish by the letter but not by the intent or spirit of the rules. Consequently they bring their shame down on all the rest who love the sport. If you want to call yourself a true sportsman don't believe the lie and do what you know is right. If you only care about the meat then do what you will but do the rest a favor and don't pawn yourself off as a sportsman as these guys are doing. And if you're ever unsure, check the regs and/or a true sportsman you can respect and want to be more like. If you honestly admire these guys then I suggest you find some new friends. A true friend and mentor wants the best for you and won't drag you down, steer you wrong or sell you out to justify his own unethical behavior. Make your choice, live by it and help others to do the same.

Just say no to flossing!

The regs clearly state that it is unlawful to fish in a manner in which the fish does not willfully take the bait or lure into it's mouth.

Therefore a 27 foot leader with a black corkie and a hook above the corkie (that's the "Toutle Local" rig) is probably an attempt to catch fish in a manner which the fish does not take the bait willfully into it's mouth.

But ask any gamie.....it's awful hard to prove what the fish was thinking.

My thought is that if you're a local who's fishing for meat and you have to attempt to floss fish....well, you're probably so desperate as to make it okay in your conscience...for the rest of us, stick to real fishing, sport fishing, and leave the meat baggers at hoodsport :p

What ever it takes to hook them in the mouth is my philosophy.
The MAJORITY of salmon and steelhead don't bite. I have reached a point where I now question the usage of eggs due to one simple yet logical question.
Do migrant fish really bite on bait?
If so, how come you don't find any scraps in their guts.
For me, flossing is an art; where as snagging is an illegal and a crude method which any fool can do.

Just go by the rule and you'll be OK.

No, fishing is an art.

Flossing is snagging....you just do it in the mouth.

I have seen visible coho, king, steelhead and chum all come up and take a jig out from under a bobber into their mouth ON PURPOSE.

Maybe they were just mad at it, but SKILLED angler should be able to LURE the fish into biting his/her bait ON PURPOSE.

Intentional Flossing = Snagging

Ironhead they bite out of aggression, not out of hunger.

If the fish does not WILLINGLY!!!! take the hook(s) into it's mouth it is illegal and unethical and unsportsman like and only scumbags do it.. I am not calling anyone who does it a scumbag. I am saying that the action of "flossing" makes you one. If you want to not be a scumbag then quit being a snagger.

Bustinbig,

It depends on YOUR ethics. You can choose your own; you don't have to accept mine.

I think the more relevant issue is legality. Under the rules of fair chase (that's what's considered sportsmanlike conduct), and the opposite of the definition of snagging, the fish is supposed to willingly take the bait or lure in its mouth. Flossing is snagging, but because the fish ends up being hooked in or near the mouth, wildlife agents are less likely to cite because of the greater difficulty of prosecution.

To floss or not to floss? Flossing is equivalent to shooting sitting ducks or using aircraft to hunt big game. They violate the concept of fair chase. Even if it's legal, I'm partial to fair chase; it helps define me as a civilized person, and the end does not justify the means.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

If you are worried about flossing a fish then you can make your own choice to NOT to use a hook corkey hook set up. Now don't get me wrong I am not stating that just because you are using that set up you are flossing or snagging.
I have caught lots of fish with both the one hook set up and the two hook set up, 98% of time the hooks are (in the mouth) with both. Also there is a strike or bite when the hook up occurred.
Just yesterday I was fishing the Lewis river across from the hatchery and I was one of the few people that had bait on their hook.... a lot of people had over size hooks with 3 to 4 large corkies and a sinker that gave them a slow drift. One guy had at least 20 fish on in a 2 hr time period, only one of the fish was landed.


Fishalot

This is one area that I do not believe is black-and-white except in peoples minds. I am sure a percentage of fish actually do strike the corky, just as they do if the leader is 3 feet long........ I chock it up there with BuzzBombs. Some people use them to catch fish, others use them to snag.... Does that mean that BB'ing is an unethical way to fish? Many think so. I do not floss, but I can remember MANY days on the E. Fork Lewis when the water was low and clear and I would use a half a Jensen Egg and a #6 hook and a leader from 6-10ft long........ Caught all the fish in the mouth but did they take it or did I floss them?? I guess if you feel the fish dragging your line for several seconds and then hook them they were flossed, and if you get a bump and set the hook to have a fish on (without pulling for 6 feet before hooking them) then they bit it?

Like I said, I believe it is a real grey area dictated by common sense only......

MC

My thought on the deal is learn to fish in water that is all to your own, and learn to read water.
Fishing in combat zones like some of the "socalled" experts do and getting fish is not really escalating your expertise, other than learning how to play a fish.
Hatchery or not, the ethical old school way where you find the fish is the road to success.
Flossing is a very broad spectrum.
I call it "sight fishing" ,
That ain't no fun to me, but then again I don't fish the "ditch" "reiter" "blue creek" etc.
Learn to fish many different methods, and learn many rivers.
I have never used a 10ft leader for anything.
Other than under a float, with a jig.

I just try and learn new ways to find fish, and be in solitude and enjoy the nature being outside part of the deal....but thats just me....
If you use a 10ft leader, more power to ya!
You will never see me doing it though.

Maybe I don't get the flossing thing, I don't need too
WW

I don't floss. I don't have to.

4 outa 5 dentist surveyed said.... Oh yes you doooo! :p

I'm sad to admit that I have never flossed a fish with my full or even partial knowledge of committing such a dastardly and dire act even when fishing the Quilcene or the Cowlitz or for the record anyother body of water under the jurisdiction of Washimgton state......course if I was to go up to Alaska to hook sockeye in the mouth by such socalled evil methods.....nope it never happened. ....but it might :p . Sheesh anyone know where the dead horse pic is?

Not a good topic way to heated and way too beat to death..
Depends on what your fishing for socks (yes) any thing else pretty much (nope) Except if you can't catch them any way else..

You guys don't know jack. Making up more rules and regulations which aren't being called for.
I am so glad that some of you people are not involved with the decision making of our fishing regulations.
You wouldn't know flossing if I ran my leader b/w your legs and hook your jewels, head first.
If you are so much concerned with ethics, then just quite the fishing. Don't you know that these fish are in the river to spawn? Why are you harassing them during this critical stage of their lives? You say they bite out of aggression.
I say leave them alone. Let them do their own aggression among themselves as nature intended them to do. Stop stressing them out by tossing spoons, spinners, jigs, or whatever at them. Its just unethical and unnatural for us to interfere with their spawning process don't you think. There, take this ethic and stick it up your ethical reservior.

Shoot, I've seen guys flossing fish in 4ft of water using egg clusters. They don't know it, but I was on opposite side of them actually seeing the fish mouthed the leader first.

It all boils down to who is catching more fish doen't it.
A fisherman catching more fish than you, he is landing fish after fish in the mouth while you're trying your very best to read the water and attempting to harrass teh fish to be aggressive. This guy is not breaking any laws. Hell, he releases all of his catch. You are doing everything RIGHT, loosing gear every cast, switching lure every 5 minutes, and can't get a head shake. What is this guy doing wrong? Now your true feelings come out, jealousy and all. Its got to be THE ETHICAL FISHERMAN CODE that he is breaking. He is breaking YOUR LAW, "HE IS CATCHING MORE FISH THAN YOU."
The gammies can't help you. If you had your way and no body is looking, you send this guy floating down river face down.

Do what you got to do, but please stop trying to protect me from myself. Sick and tired of the homo, liberal, do gooders pushing uncalled for ethics to the world.

DANG I COULDNT HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!

I have seen the looks of the jealous and frustrated liberal yuppie fishing fools, and your right on! It comes down to pure jealousy of a good old boy redneck hooking fish on his garage sale special eagle claw fishing rod compared to yuppie boy whos got the latest in fishing technology from baystreet outfitters and cant hook crap!

oh, oh there goes the neighborhood somebody told it how it is.

No Iron Head that's not what it boils down to. I don't care how many fish you caught if they weren't caught legally. Otherwise if you're outfishing me I don't get mad I get interested.

Would you shoot a deer with a spotlight while its eating apples from you apple trees? Hmmm, why not? Because it isn't legal? Or you just know that it isn't right? Some poeple were born with a conscience. Some weren't. I know where some of you stand, and you know where I'm at.

Glow

Well said IH.......

If you can't floss with a 3-4' leader, you don't need to floss at all. Sockeye excepted of course.

Glowball,
First I would like to tell you that I consider you a very respectable member here. I have seen you gave out reports and advices for both fishing and hunting. Thanks for being a true sportsman.

But I have to disagree with you on your last post.
1. Hooking and/or retaining fish being hooked in the mouth is LEGAL.
2. Snagging to retain fish being hooked in a region other than the mouth, eyess, or gills is ILLEGAL.

Yes, I would shoot a legal deer eating apples from a tree if he is a trophy or I really need the meat.

No, I would not use the spot light because it would be ILLEGAL to hunt those hours.

Glowball, please show me and everyone here specifically where the law dictates against flossing fish and retaining fish hooked in the mouth.

As for your hunting scenario, page 15 "State of Washington Big Game Hunting Seasons and Rules 2003."
1. "Hunging with artifical lights
Hunting big game with the aid of an artificial light or spotlights is prohibited."

This one is for the dumbass above.
Page 15 "State of Washington Big Game Hunting Seasons and Rules 2003."
3. "Using aircraft
Using aircraft to spot, locate, or report the location of wildlife for the purpose of hunting, or hunting big fame on the same day you are airborne, except for a regularly scheduled commercial flight, is prohibited."

Guys, the laws are already here for all of us.
Please know them and interpret them properly.
If you're confused, them just call the department or post a question on this board.
But please stop making more rules and laws; it is getting more confusing already.

For those who don't know.
Flossing is not easy.
Although they think that they are flossing, not too many guys are affective with this method.

Big hooks and big corkies is the wrong setup.
That's all I can say to prevent a burning cross on my front yard tonight.

if you cannot see the fish in the river, then why is it considered flossing? i fished the puyallup with a 2 ft leader. was i flossing? i understand that if you are looking at the fish and "LINE" them then you have a flossing problem. anyways, lets just shut up and fish.

Those of you who dont floss, how often have you caught a fish when its hooked on the outside of the mouth?!?!?! IH brings up some very valid points, but it all boils down to what you believe in. As long as people are not going over thier limits and staying to the rule book, I have not problem with it.

So lets stop debating this and go floss...uh..i mean catch....uh snag..........

It seems to me, you fish water and you speak out on a Board. What better place is there to discuss issues like this than on a forum such as this? Thank you Bob.
Surely it is appropriate and potentially very beneficial to others to be able to openly discuss such topics relating to the ethics of sportsfishing. Does this not concern the appreciation, welfare and future of the passion and sport we all enjoy? Is it not obvious from the many opinions we've heard on this topic that this is an issue that has importance and relevance to us as sportsfishermen? Perhaps it should come as no surprise that many who are uncomfortable or uneasy about discussing ethics do not want to examine their own. And yet, this is the very thing that we as concerned sportfishermen should do, in addition to encouraging others to do the same. In fact this should not be just a one time thing; we would do well to examine ourselves each time we strap on a vest or launch a boat if we want more out of a fishing experience than just a fish. (I did get a chuckle when someone referred to ethics as “liberal” thinking.)

Flossing might be one of those "grey areas" for some and maybe even for the authorities, but the individual knows his heart and what he’s doing.
If you want an answer to the question, "was I flossing?”, try asking yourself. What's really pitiful though is when others can see clearly what the "snosser" is up to and he can't. At that point he just simply doesn’t care (not about the fish or anybody else for that matter) and furthermore he has no self-respect.

Egg, maybe you’re just trying to help in your own way but too often it seems that those who would have us “shut up and go fish" are not asking us to join with them but rather asking us to go away and leave them alone. When they say “go fish”, it usually means anywhere but where they are fishing. And if on the off chance someone should accidentally get lucky and start catching some fish, they’re usually the first to complain about the lack of info on the board. But when there is a post, they’ll holler because it isn’t in code that only they can understand (wouldn’t want anyone else to spoil it). And when it comes sharing information, having an opinion or trying help others in some way to become a better and more successful fisherman, they’ll say, “heck let em’ figure it out for themselves like I had to”. Surely you’ve got more to offer than “just shut up and fish”.

Flossing = Snagging = Can't Catch A Fish Using a Real Method.

There are techniques such as spoon fishing, bobber fishing, plugging, and of course drift fishing. These are TECHNIQUES, or in other words, different "arts" of fishing.

However, I have yet to find some good guidance on how to properly "floss" a fish. I guess the closest reference would be in a drift fishing guide, but hmmmm....I can't seem to find anything about the great technique of flossing?????

The only real cure to the flossing is to limit the length of one's leader. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some states have maximum leader length regulations. Even with that in place, a great deal of the fish you catch (long leader or not) will be flossed. This is especially true if you employ the good ol' corky/yarn technique. We had a great discussion on this topic on another BB.
Additionally, isn't this like the 500th time we've had this discussion. For some reason flossing generates more interest than any other issue.

One thing I dont get is why is everybody so worried about what others are doing,catching or not catching, flossing or snagging. These post always seem to go the distancewhile fishing report post are lucky to make ten.

When I go fishing I am out to enjoy myself and the outdoors. I dont get why some of you guys even bother going out the door!

Arent you miserable worrying about what other people are doing all the time or is it that you get off on putting people down about the way they fish cause you dont have the balls to or the know how to hook that many fish .

when I do happen to fish near others (which is rarely) the topic of coversation is 90% negatiive. They can have fifty thousand chums at there feet and still whine about the indians or the commercials, or snaggers, or flossers, or flyfishermen, or gear fishermen.

I could hook fifty fish and only have one person ask what I am using, is that because people would rather speculate that I am snagging or flossing?

Do I think before I fish no I just do it. If I thought each time I went out if what I was doing was ethical I would join peta and fight to stop fishing period!

Fishing originated because people needed to eat. Now some people still happen to eat fish,Imagine that! some people that cant go out and catch fish every day are going to do what ever it takes to get there salmon dinner poor or not. There not going to fish for a week and get skunked then head to safeway. to each is own.

People whos think there there idea of ethics should be followed by everybody are liberals and rank right up there with hitler.

Obey the limits and fish how you like to fish! ENJOY YOURSELF!!!!!!

As you can tell I am kinda pissed at do gooders right now.

As I understand it, it's legal to keep a fish that has been hooked outside the mouth but forward of the gill plates, but the act of flossing intentionally (which is pretty much obvious when someone is using a 10 foot leader) is illegal, just as any other method that entails hooking outside the mouth intentionally.

So, intentionally flossing (the act) is illegal, and if you're doing it on purpose you're breaking the law and having someone complain about it shouldn't surprise you.

That being said, why can't we get some political posts going? This is all getting to controversial for me.

Why don't we all just get back to work? Just imagine the results if we directed all of this passion towards something really important like our jobs or family.

Honey? Is that you?


Wow, Roundball. Good shot. Got me right between the eyes.
Ok, it's back to work.

Micro,
I love you man for standing up to reasoning.
I am done with talking to people who are irrational and unreasonable.

I don't care for this crap anymore.
I'm giving them my 10-12 ft leader dental plan either if they bite or don't bite. Either way my hook is going to burry deep on the lip. Legal fish for my family and my friends thats the bottom line.

Sorry for the dumb ass thing, I was out of line.

Aren't YOU the guy who said salmon and steelhead don't bite bait?

You got a LOT to learn.............

Dan,
I am not going any further with this thing, but I will help you get into the discussion.

Please read the post again.
The word MAJORITY is in the sentence within the context of salmon and steelhead returning to the river to spawn.
Since we are all seasoned fisherman, I assumed that we have the knowledge to leave out the springers and the long distance migratory steelhead of the Clear Water, the Grande Ronde, the Snake, etc... as well as those few random fish that hit bait/lures by instinct or chance.

Remember the Barrier Dam pool?
Hundreds of fish yet only a small percentage of them are interested in bait and lures.

Jesus Christ, Dan.
Learn to read and interpret the post before you attempt to teach and to preach.

There you go, getting me all mad again.

I guess it really doesn't matter that much to me. We're all allowed a certain number of fish every day, and if they are all getting consumed then what the heck. The only time it gets to me is when people brag up how great they are when they don't even know how bad they really suck. It shouldn't faze me but it does.

An ol timer keeps telling me all the time that we better all stick together or we're gonna lose it all eventually. The older I get the more it makes sense.

My apologies Iron Head. Hopefully we'll meet up on the river someday.

Glow

Being a semi amatuer at steelheading I now understand why those guys at Blue Creek with the 5-6 foot leaders were having such "luck". Great discussion! I still say chums bite at corkies.

Kegged up stale fish don't bite anything very well. Fish for fresh fish and it's not a problem.

Quit hurling insults and you'll have some ground to stand on. I saw the word "majority". I still say you're wrong.

OK Dan, my bad.
I could of expressed the last post with different words.
I applogize for my disrespectful comment toward you. You may be correct. My 15 years of experience had gotten me very successful these last several years; however I am an open minded person so I will take your advice to see if I can advance in this sport to a higher level.

Glow,
No hard feelings.
I fish with a very nice custom 10.5 loomis.
Its a one of a kind in the world; a weapon of choice for HOGS which my dad had built for me 5 years ago. Next year I will have a 12.5 Angler Workshop "Catchem and Clubbem" rod build by the best, my dad.

Thanks for the conversation guys.

hmmm fish do hit lures, they do hit bait for whatever reason.. Chums do it, chinooks do it, coho do it, pinks do it and certainly winter and summer steelhead do it. when it happens it isn't a fluke.. Seasoned fishermen know the difference.. catching fish in such a way that the fish doesn't intentionally take the hooks into it's mouth is illegal PERIOD!!! thats it and their ain't no more. if a fish won't bite leave it alone! if there are 1000 fish in a pool below a hatchery and they won't bite leave them alone... It's time WDFW stop promoting these kinds of fisheries..

Actually Rob, "attempting" to catch fish in such a way that the fish doesn't intentionally take the hooks into it's mouth is illegal. You can catch them any way they get hooked but, if it's a salmon and if it's in fresh water, you are not allowed to keep them unless they are hooked in the head.

For example - If you are fishing with a spoon and the fish hits the spoon and the hook behind the spoon pulls forward and gets stuck in the outside of the fishes mouth you were not snagging. You were attempting to get the fish to intentionally bite the hook which it would have if only the ignorant fish would have approached it from behind instead of from the side.

Furthermore it is legal to keep the fish, even if it is a salmon and it is caught in fresh water.

I wonder when they will breed a fish that can look at a hook and think, "I really want to get that thing stuck in my mouth so I can get drug around the river until I'm all tuckered out and then get my picture taken."

You get my point? Hope so cause I really do believe that you might be smarter than a fish.

this is the law straight from the wa legislature page for keeping salmon http://www.leg.wa.gov/wac/index.cfm?fuseaction=Section&Section=220-56-215 cant get any clearer then that. the regs are wrong when it clarifies snagging and thats why it is being changed next year to what this law says. anyways this law only applies to salmon. hope that this will put all the arguements to rest

Just to clarify. the reason thre guys at blue creek do better with the 6 foot leaders is not because they are flossing. its because there are several large boulders down there and the longer leader provides for better visability. to be effective at flossing you need to be using at least a 10 foot leader preferably 15 to 20!

Thats really smart thinking rob. Did you ever stop to think that the more hatchery surplus there is the larger the commercial qoutas will be! for example the columbia river fishery!

With talk like that you should be heading up peta real soon!

We get 45 replies in two days on this beaten-to-jello-dead-horse issue, while the gill nets are out raping puget sound.....

Iron Head,

Don't sweat me........I've been in a foul mood since being infected with some voodoo virus a couple days ago.

It's kept me off the rivers and home from work. Who the hell stays home from work and doesn't go fishing?

Talk to you later.........

Aix
you got to be kidding I can show you some fellas that are very good a flossing with 4 inches of leader they just use the mainline for the floss. I can also show you a spot where they use no leaders and a lead head jig (LEFT ON THE BOTTOM NOT SWIMMING)and they are flossing....but like the game warden said "they are using a leagel lure and catching fish in or near the mouth and I cant bring a fish infront of a jury to testify weither in bit or ran into the line" so what can he do.....DJ

Sorry to break it to you fellas. If you fish for salmon with corky/yarn (tailor-made floss rig) you are probably lining fish. I'm not saying all the fish you catch are flossed, but those 20 fish days are probably 5 fish days - if you want to count the fish that actually "bit" your presentation. It doesn't matter how long your leader is either. Obviously a 20 foot leader will floss more fish. However, when fish are in thick, a 2 footer will do. Same goes for jigging and fly fishing. I watched some guy flyfishing the Puyallup (with zero visibility I might add) in mid september. He had a fish on every time I looked over. Do you honestly think that those fish "took" his presentation on purpose. Of course not...... Sure they were in the mouth. THEY WERE FLOSSED. The funny thing was the fact that this guy thought he was such a "purist." Hey, to each their own. I'm sure he had no idea what he was doing. He didn't look too savvy with the 7 weight. Flossing is way more common than many people think.

Flossing is the answer to the fish that don't bite... I enjoy flossing, it takes more skill than the best of the best bait boys!! For those that don't believe it, then come out and try for yourself. It's an art to make a cast and have your line floss a fish without it spooking.....
Salmongigger OUT!!!!

This keeps coming up and I want to know where this little bit of dissinformation originated.
I also had several people at the "slay fest at the Satsop" tell me that the gammies said it was ok to keep one native Silver. Since niether situation is mentioned anywhere that I can find in the Pamphlet edition of the fishing rules, one is left wondering which States rule book these people mistakenly picked up on thier way to the river.

grumpyr-
It states it clearly in the regs that flossing is legal... Where did you go to school and learn to read???

It states that if a fish is hooked in the mouth or somewhere around it ie. gillplate forward you can BONK it....

Read for yourself!!!

26. SNAGGING CLARIFICATION: It is unlawful to possess a fish taken for personal
use from fresh water that was not hooked inside the mouth or on the head. The head of a fish is defined as any portion forward of the rear margin of the gill plate. This rule
would not apply to forage fish taken with forage fish jigger gear.

Kind of got quiet didn't we... :p
Salmongigger OUT!!!

Salmongigger you don't have enough posts for anyone to give a second thought to. I just went back and looked at all your posts thus far and I'm not impressed. Pipe down for a bit and maybe everyone won't right you off. Otherwise you will probably have to come back with a new moniker. I've seen several people shunned for just what you've been doing if you don't believe me. Yeah that's right I've been around this block a couple times.

GLOWBALL OUT!!!!!!!

ya, mr gigger, wish you were out and stayed out!!!!

I hate this topic, but I must continue to clarify this issue for both myself and the people who are starting out with river fishing.
I beg the old timers and the experienced fisherman to join in to come up with the definition and put a lid on issue once and for all.

I will retain the mud slinging and the name calling because I feel that it is getting very serious now.
Why?
Because we have enough regulations to play with already.

Here are the facts:

1. 2003/2004 Pamplet Edition Fishing In Washington, page 16 states the definition of Snagging as "Attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth.

2. 2003/2004 Pamplet Edition Fishing In Washington, page 20, paragraph 6 under the column, Tackle states "Where use of bait is prohibited, or where lures or flies are used voluntarily, game fish may be caught and released untile the daily limit is retained. If any fish has swallowed the hook or is hooked in the gill, eye, or tongue, it should be kept if legal to do so.

3. River -Special Rules where applicable.

OK, let us analyze each one of those two definitions above.

I will start with my definition.

1. Snagging - I wont waste your time with this one so I will use the Skokomish tribal fisherman as an example. This to me is snagging because the fish are visible and the attempt to hook them in any region of their body is obvious.
This also apply if a fisherman who repeatedly sets the hook hoping to catch a fish anywhere on its body; however it is also very ambiguous to find this act unlawful because it is also difficult to dictate what this fisherman's true intention. He might of feel multiple bites.
So it boils down to his reaction after he captures the fish.
If he lets the fish go, then it is legal.
If he keeps this fish which had been hooked other than the mouth, eye, or gills, then it is illegal.

2. To me, "In the mouth" means in the mouth. There is no definition for the hook penetrating from the outside region or the inside region of the mouth. But we can assume that it can be both taking for granted that the eye, tongue, and the gills are also in the same sentence of being legal.

Tell you the truth, I do not see the word "Flossing" anywhere in the book.
I don't even know how to prove if a fish is intentionally biting the bait/lure without actually seeing it in action.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

We all have our preferences in this sport.
Some of us are strictly bait fisherman, some are heavy metals, some are plugs, some are fly fisherman, some are corkies + yarn, some are drifters, and some are plunkers.
If we can't come to a concensus on this minor definition of "Snagging", how are we going to fight for more important issues.

Thanks

Grumpyr and Iron Head.

Read WAC 220-56-215 .

Unlawful possession of snagged salmon.
It shall be unlawful to possess salmon taken for personal use from freshwater areas that were not hooked inside the mouth or on the head.

Due to some oversight the preceeding law regulating posession of fresh water hooked salmon was not included in the pamphlet.

It should have been in there and even though it was not it is still the law.

I have no doubt he was flossing, but I just want to say that fish do bite with no visability.
If you remind me next season before oct 31st I will show you just after a certain river floods. I slayed em on jigs while everybody else was turning around and going home. I dont know how they were finding it but I caught several fish and many followed it right to my feet at the bank. Lateral line maybe? I was using no scent.

Sounds more like snagging to me. Flossing involves the line sweeping through the river parallel to the bottom and vertical to the bank.
Letting it set where you can see the fish or waiting for a line bump then setting the hook is snagging.

Ok leys call it snagging but its still hard to make a case out of a leagal lure in the fishs mouth.....Its something to see and the guys that do it do it very well....DJ

Snagging: Attempting to take fish with a hook and line in such a way that the fish does not voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth.

At what point during flossing does the fish voluntarily take the hook?

M101, what's up bud? IMO they are the same. What's the difference between the line sweeping down on a moving fish and a moving fish running into a stationary line. They are both bumping into the line with their mouth and getting hooked. The Blue Creek (or fill in any river w/good hatchery run) guys and the Samish guys are doing the same thing. Before the jig craze it used to be a glob of eggs w/or without weight at the Samish for me. I'm sure lots of them kings were biters, but I'm also sure many were lined. It's the same w/ that jig sitting in the mud. When a king hits your line, it sure feels like it's attacking the [Bleeeeep!] out off your lure. Maybe it is maybe it isn't. But until we can figure out how to interview a salmon/steelhead about to be clubbed whether or not it voluntarily struck the lure/bait then I say let's assume it did.

Cupo

If I am not mistaken, seems to me that a lot of people in Lake Washington "troll" with just a little red bare small hook and catch lots of fish!

Can you tell us what regulation or law says that you can't let your line swing around into a fish's mouth?


Cowlitzfisherman

Those sockeye are being flossed? By trollers?

Do you read what you post?

Well Dan
Isn't the line also moving? Maybe the fish are just schooled up and happen to be running into the lines with their mouths open! Who really knows, but the fish!

I knew you couldn't resist the taste of the bait!

Cowlitzfisherman

Well, that WAS a mighty irresistable bait.

So, I guess the trick is to make sure your boat travels perpendicular to the fish, huh? :p

Don't forget the "Ultra-Whip" Hotspot flasher with "Floss-o-matic" action, and the 15 foot leader either!

CFM

You are using your circular logic again. :p

OK CFM what does 2+2 =

I say 4

Somehow I bet you will come up with 6 or any other conclusion then 4.

Note: This is not a flame I just think you get enjoyment out of debating the un debatable.

See how this simple thing got us thinking?

But I still can not comprehend the logic of hooking a fish in the eye ball is legal and hooking a fish from the lip inward is illegal.

I am not saying that the flossing technique produce this type of hookup.
I am just trying to understand our member's logic.

Thanks

Lead thrower

You can look at flossing like this:
Or, if you want to, you can go "full circle" and you can look at flossing something like this:

It's OK to fool fish by using scents; it's OK to full fish by using carbon mono line; it's OK to fool fish by feeding them an unreal colored chunk of eggs; it's OK to piss off fish with plugs, lures, jigs; Or you could look at it like shooting ducks over unreal decoys; or using a call to call ducks in when you are not a real duck; or putting camouflage on to hide when you are hunting; or fishing on land that no one else has legal access to fish on; or fish from a boat in holes that can not be reached by foot; or using a lure that no one else has; or using "electronic" fish finding devices to find or locate fish; but somehow it's not "sporting" or legal to sneak your line down into a fishes mouth when he's not ready to let you do it!

You guys got to get a life!


And I am just getting warmed up on how some of you can add 2+2 and come up with a -3!

If this subject was not "debatable" in law, it would already be a rule change in the new WDFW rule change proposals


Cowlitzfisherman

"I knew you couldn't resist the taste of the bait!"

You are the master,

Are you sure someone took the bait...or were they flossed?

CFM,
How is anyone suppose to argue with that kind of mentality?

Stop making sense and you will get a good debate.

CFM... You never cease to amaze me

I swear I had a calculus professor prove that 2+2 did equal 3!

I say CFM was flossed..... If he had "taken the bait", he would have commented a lot sooner rather than swimming around in the hole so long till that long leader got him...... Yeah, he was flossed....

MC

I'd call that d a m n close to a checkmate CFM!

VERY GOOD JOB!

NO doubt in my mind YOU are the man!

herm

(notice when you "spool" em they change the subject or make jokes?)

CFM

I was referring to your below post, don't care about the other stuff and flossing doesn't compare to trolling with bare hooks is what I was getting at.

Your correct there may be no law but the two are not comparable.

So, everyone who pushes ethics or a liberal is a "homo"?

What if you are a homo already, Iron head? Any direct action you'd like to take then. OR would you just wait until their back was turned?

Surprised the moderatorss allow this hate-filled crap here. You can make strong arguments without being a bigot.

Hey look everyone.............

Pretty colors !!

cfm is right. And monkeys just flew out my ass.

Mannnn….I bet that really hurt!

You have NO idea..............

Yes, yes, and yes to everything, butt there is nothing wrong with that.

No, I don't hate homos.
I am just sick and tired of their crap thats comming out lately.
UNDERSTAND?

Done with the weird discussion for me.
You can go find the "Rainbow" boards and talk among your kind there.

Love + Peace
Always.

ok...i'm very new to river fishing, so forgive a stupid question. What the heck IS flossing? why the heck does length of leader matter?

Oh take a friggin Chill-Pill man...... Just to educate your PC brain a bit..... Using the Term "Homo" in this day of slang generally means the same as "noob", "putz", "dweeb", etc..... BTW, "Homo" is also in the genus m\name of men.... Uh, ever heard of "Homo Sapiens"?????

Your attitude (whiney) is exactly what he was referring too I believe...... Need a hanky?

Sorry, but the Speech Police (and usually from the same crowd that screams for 1st amendment rights) are getting a little too brave on this board IMHO......

MC

DT: Flossing is the act of using a loooong leader and fishing in such a way that the line gets drug through an unwilliung fish's mouth and eventually snags the fish in the outside of the mouth. It is consider unsporting by many as thet fish does not bite the hook, instead it is snagged in the mouth.

Apparently it has something to do with bieng a "homo", but I'm not totally clear on that aspect of it.

The right bait or lure at the right place at the right time under the right conditions with the right presentation will produce a bite. The trick is to have all of these things come together at the right moment. Can you say luck ? Otherwise its just flossing plain and simple.

Enough with the flossing thing.
Much thanks to CFM.

Lets to some fishing but first I want to share some laughters.


This guy walks into a bar and two steps in, he realizes it's a gay bar. "But what the heck," he says, "I really want a drink."

When the gay waiter approaches, he says to the customer, "What's the name of your penis?"

The customer says, "Look, I'm not into any of that. All I want is a drink."

The gay waiter says, "I'm sorry but I can't serve you until you tell me the name of your penis. Mine for instance is called 'Nike,' for the slogan, 'Just Do It.' That guy down at the end of the bar calls his 'Snickers,' because 'It really Satisfies."

The customer looks dumbfounded so the bartender tells him he will give him a second to think it over. The customer asks the man sitting to his left, who is sipping on a beer, "Hey bud, what's the name of your penis?"

The man looks back and says with a smile, "TIMEX."

The thirsty customer asks, "Why Timex?"

The fella proudly replies, "Cause it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin!"

A little shaken, the customer turns to the fella on his right, who is sipping a fruity Margarita and says, "So, what do you call your penis?"

The man turns to him and proudly exclaims, "FORD, because 'Quality is Job 1.' " Then he adds, "Have you driven a Ford, lately?"

Even more shaken, the customer has to think for a moment before he comes up with a name for his penis. Finally, he turns to the bartender and exclaims, "The name of my penis is 'Secret.' Now give me my beer."

The bartender begins to pour the customer a beer, but with a puzzled look asks, "Why secret?"

The customer says, "Because it's STRONG ENOUGH FOR A MAN, BUT MADE FOR A WOMAN!"

MasterCaster,
Do you know a guy by the name of MasterBaiter?

Bull$hit, Go bobberfishing t bay or any competitive tidewater fishery, It takes years to be a good bait fisherman. Flossing is a method, whether ethical or not. I have done it and still do it occasionally but in the words of one of the best fishermen I know "its like getting a blowjob from a Transvistie hooker, sure its fun but you wouldn't tell your firends about it". Its meat fishing in its purest form and given the choice I tend to avoid it. Besides watching your bobber go down, a plug rod flatten out , backbounce bite, or any other legal method is way better.

well i guess all that still really does not answer my question,so i am going with my first gut reaction, it sure seems like a form of snagging!

Yeah, that used to be me until I got good enough for a promotion......

MC

MY Favorite subject

Flossing is the fine art of snagging a fish in the mouth.
Yes, but to do this consistly it takes years of persistance and practice.
I myself, am a PRO!
Hell, I'm so good I can even floss sturgeon!!!
I have flossed hundereds of fish and and don't have a problem with it. If it's hooked other than in the mouth area I release it.
Most of the time I release "ALL" of my fish anyway.
If some of you want to call me a scumbag that's ok, I don't have a problem with flossing, but if you do, you should not do it, period!
Shorten your leaders to 24" or stick to lures?
Most people floss and don't even realize it.
If your using a 36 inch + plus leader, you yourself have flossed some fish!!!
I saw a guy last Wed using a 3ft leader and he flossed a Silver. The hook was on the outside of the jaw
I've seen guy's egg clusters on the outside of a fish's jaw. OOPS!!
I've seen fish flossed using a float (first hand )
If my Vibrax's hook is on the outside of the jaw, did I floss him , or did he bite down on the lure's body and then I drove in the hook????

Hey instead of HARPING on the evils of how to properly hook fish your way, why not instead concentrate on teaching people "To Limit Their Kill, Not Their Catch?"

Perhaps he did not mean homosexual, yeah right. Maybe he meant homogenized milk?

Hiding behind double meanings of words is a scumbag lawyer/politician game (like Clinton and Bush). If you want to pretend that he did not mean homosexual, you should also pretend that you are Peter Pan.

"Homo sapiens" is really what he meant?? LOL, that is the stupidest thing I have honestly ever read here. Your stupidity is breathtaking. Please do us all a favour and avoid breeding.

to everyone

I believe this is a beaten to death subject. No matter what anyone says it is not going to change another's opinion. If someone thinks flossing is ok there going to do it regardless of what is said to them. Instead as another already said we must limit how many fish we keep not how many we catch. Enough with the bashing, it dose not help a thing. If you want to have an educated argument then stop with the fallacies. Bashing a person in an argument does not prove anything but your own ignorance, instead criticize their ideas with your own.

PS: I really do not want to ask this question but I can not resist. Do you think it is ok to snag a fish if you are going to release it.

Yes, snag the sucker in the but and rip half of its skin off dragging it in backwards then let it swim away to try and spawn.

Sense the sarcasm?

I've heard that there is no such thing as a stupid question, but that one is borderline.

This thread has really got people goin! I'd like to see this kind of enthusiasm in some reports of where people have been fishing and what kind of results they've been getting. This board may unfortunately turn into something similar to NWF'ng. I really hope not, I joined to get some feedback and hear stories of people hooking some fish and having fun, isn't that what fishing is all about, good company and having a good time? At least thats what my dad taught me.

Glowball

Your a real piece of work, to tell you the truth your a jackass. I was being sarcastic by asking that question. In one of the early posts someone said that it was ok to floss. While I was on the Skok I saw a guy flossing fish, real good might I add, however, he did not always get them in the mouth. If you read carefully and not like a mumbling idiot like most and bash me for what I said, you too would have got the joke.

GLOWBALL YOU ARE A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF AN ASS WHO BASHES PEOPLE RATHER THAN THEIR COMMENT

PS: I agree I joined the site to seek advice, not to preach about how ones method of killing fish is wrong.

Okay ... warning to red corner. A special warning to blue corner since you've already been booted once and came back and re-registered.

This bout is over.