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#217669 - 11/05/03 10:29 PM Will this hurt salmon?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
Portland, OR -- The Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA) proposed "Oregon Rule," which would pave the way for federal dams to evade their Clean Water Act obligations, is a trial balloon for a broad national policy that would have devastating consequences for river ecosystems across the country, conservationists warned today.

The proposed Oregon Rule would allow federal agencies to petition the EPA to weaken water quality standards that are needed to maintain river conditions that support healthy and thriving fish populations.

Right now, many federal dams impair water quality to the point that fish populations are decreased and sliding toward extinction. If a federal dam operator petitions EPA, the Oregon Rule would require EPA to initiate a process to change standards to suit the dam -- even if lower standards would prevent restoration of healthy fish populations.

EPA staff have admitted that the Oregon Rule is a precursor to a national rule that would offer special treatment to federal dams that violate water quality standards -- dams that can have severe effects on both temperature and dissolved oxygen content in the water trapped in their reservoirs.

The proposed national rule will also contain many other provisions to undermine efforts to make all rivers safe and clean for fish and people.

"The Bush administration has shown time and time again that if an environmental protection law is too inconvenient for polluters to comply with -- they'll just change it," said Buck Parker, executive director, Earthjustice.

"Now, the Bush administration has gone a step further by encouraging its own federal agencies to dismantle the very backbone of one of the strongest and most important environmental laws that we have -- the Clean Water Act."

Most federal dams are owned and operated by either the Army Corps of Engineers or the Bureau of Reclamation. The U.S. Congress has proposed reforms to address the Corps' well-recognized lack of commitment to protect the environment and the U.S. House of Representatives recently passed legislation designed to improve the Corps' track record.

Encouraging this agency to find further exemptions from one of the nation's leading environmental laws dramatically undermines these critical reform efforts.

"Encouraging the Army Corps to violate the Clean Water Act is like encouraging a dog to chase a cat," said Paula Del Giudice, director, Northwest Natural Resource Center, National Wildlife Federation.

"It makes no sense and the federal taxpayers and communities that depend upon salmon and steelhead for their livelihoods will be the victims of this new administration rollback."

One river impacted by the Oregon Rule is the Willamette River near Portland, OR, the nation's 13th longest river. The Willamette, which is currently in violation of water quality standards, has nine Army Corps dams that are directly affecting its mainstem temperature and might evade regulation under the proposed rule.

If the rule is extended nationally, it could also sanction pollution from hundreds of other dams across the country, including the four dams operated by the Army Corps on the lower Snake River, which violated water temperature standards for 63 days in a row this summer.

According to the EPA, one of the primary reasons water temperatures reach such high levels in the Snake River is because of these four dams. Dams hold back river water creating slow-moving reservoirs that expose more water for a longer period of time to the sun's heat. These high temperatures can be devastating to the river's ecosystem and lethal to salmon and other wildlife.

In addition, federal dams throughout the Southeast, such as Bull Shoals dam on the White River in Arkansas, discharge water with very low dissolved oxygen, threatening aquatic life downstream.

"Clean water is essential to our health, quality of life and local economies," said Rebecca Wodder, president, American Rivers. "If the administration guts clean water safeguards, it will essentially be taking money out of the pockets of fishing, boating and recreation businesses across the country."

The new water quality standards proposed by the administration for the state of Oregon would effectively relieve more than 150 of the state's federal dams from their Clean Water Act responsibilities. If a similar provision is put forward for the nation, more than 2,100 dams could be impacted.

"Our environment's health and well-being rests on the back of laws like the Clean Water Act," said Roger Rufe, president, The Ocean Conservancy.

"We cannot stand by and allow the current administration to reverse decades of protection that we have enjoyed under the Act. In the 1970s, we fought to have the Clean Water Act enacted; today we must fight to keep it from being dismantled."
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#217670 - 11/05/03 11:22 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 511
Loc: Skagit Valley
I doubt it will hurt salmon but it might hurt credibility, both yours and the environmentalists who created those ideas.

I particularly liked this line:
"We cannot stand by and allow the current administration to reverse decades of protection that we have enjoyed under the Act. In the 1970s, we fought to have the Clean Water Act enacted; today we must fight to keep it from being dismantled."

Didn't the salmon go into a steep decline beginning in the mid-seventies?
So much for the decades of protection!

Sorry - I don't have the time fo a line by line commentary.

Do you think Clinton's nose would make a good bobber design? I'll bet it would help hook a lot of hens... Ane in the mouth.

Good fishin' - Plunk
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

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#217671 - 11/06/03 01:44 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1459
Loc: Third stone from the sun
AMEN BROTHER PLUNKER!

IT'S NICE TO KNOW THAT I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON ON THIS WEBSITE WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN SPIKING OLD GROWTH TREES AND RIOTING AGAINST THE W.T.O.

MAYBE ALL THE BUSH HATING ENVIROMENTAL EXTREMISTS CAN ALL GET TOGTHER FOR A BIG CIRCLE JERK AND THE REST OF US CAN DISCUSS FISHING RELATED TOPICS.


"IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING-- YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING"
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

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#217672 - 11/06/03 05:25 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
fishkisser99 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/12/99
Posts: 520
Loc: Eastsound, WA, USA
Thanks for the heads up, surecatch. I found a sample comment letter on the American Rivers site, and had them send one on my behalf. Note that the public comment period closes Nov. 9.

I also loved Plunk's reply. Why, of course bandaids cause the wounds they cover!

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#217673 - 11/06/03 10:24 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1698
Loc: Brier, Washington
I think Bill's penis-like nose would make a good lure for the hens. I think the poster of the letter above needs to give credit to the author and also provide the specific changes that would be made that would reverse decades of progress. Specifics are much easier to debate than opinions slanted once again by Bush Bashing.
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#217674 - 11/06/03 02:04 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Steve Ericsson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 531
Loc: Olympia, Wa
I don't know about his nose, but another apendage of his caught a big nasty one right in the mouth!! Hmm, ok, that was bad. My bad!
_________________________
Organized people are just too lazy to look for things.

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#217675 - 11/06/03 07:46 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1698
Loc: Brier, Washington
Bill: " I DID NOT FLOSS THAT WOMAN!!!"
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#217676 - 11/06/03 08:53 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Dave Vedder Offline
Reverend Tarpones

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 8379
Loc: West Duvall
Grandpa: Now that was funny!
_________________________
No huevos no pollo.

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#217677 - 11/07/03 02:10 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rob Allen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 311
Loc: Vancouver WA
Here is the deal The Columbia and snake dams have been in violation of the clean water act since the act was made into law. The army corps has never done anything to improve water quality in the lakes they created and never intended to do anything. This is just Bish saying that they will never have to do anything and that dams are more important than salmon.
The main problem in the Columbia is summertime surface water temps which reach well into the upper 70's even 80's. These temps are lethal for salmonids because such warm water contains very little disolved oxeygen..

In short Bush hates salmon If you vote for him it means you want salmon to go extinct. it's that black and white..

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#217678 - 11/07/03 02:24 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
MasterCaster Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 368
Loc: Florida
Jeez Rob, it is not that "balck and white".
I lived on the Columbia near Hermiston for 8 years and I agree that the water temps got pretty disgusting in August and September. But aren't you folks (Environmentalists) the same group that SCREAMED for Trojan to be shut down?? What are you going to do to power your house and your business? Burn coal? Let them build new nuke sites?
I personally believe that Wind power is criminally under-utilized, but then again there are "Environmentalists" that also scream about "those ugly, landscape ruining windmills" and some that also claim they hurt wildlife...... I see it as a no-win situation. We want the luxuries, but we want NO sacrifice to enjoy those luxuries.... I am not positively against breaching of the Snake dams, I just think that if it happens it will only empower the non-common sense group who then will go after the Columbia Dams, and although I would thoroughly enjoy seeing the mighty Columbia return to her natural state, I have enough sense to know that doing that would take most of what we take for granted away.
As far as blaming all this on the current admin (I am not a Bush lover by any means) is ridiculous also, since the 8 years of Clinton did not get us any closer to solving the conflict and he never got the dams breached while he was in power, so he needs just as much blame as the current Prez.....

MC beathead
_________________________
MasterCaster


"Equal Rights" are not "Special Rights"........

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#217679 - 11/07/03 02:26 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allen:
In short Bush hates salmon If you vote for him it means you want salmon to go extinct. it's that black and white..
I rather doubt that one president serving an eight year term is going to make the salmon go extinct. It has taken about 75 years of damns, pollution, uncontrolled population growth and friggen gillnets in the rivers to get them to where they are today... Yes alot of work to be done but no matter who the president is he will care about this much about salmon. "friggen 0" especially when there is the economy, the middle east, and re-election to worry about... time to deal with this issue closer to home and leave the president out of it...

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#217680 - 11/07/03 12:46 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
lupo Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 1501
Loc: seattle wa
scowak-
your quote that "if you dont stand for something you will fall for anything" is from the book "the monkey wrench gang" how ironic that you took a quote from the book that started earth first and now you use it too. maybe your a closet hippie trying to be cool... maybe just another conservative hyocrite that has watched too much of our conservative american media. have you even read that book? or do you just adopt environmental quotes and use them in hypocritical manners
_________________________
"time is but the stream I go a-fishing in"- Henry David Thoreau

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#217681 - 11/07/03 03:19 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rory Bellows Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 1459
Loc: Third stone from the sun
DEAR LUPO,

WERE YOU THE ONE AT THE W.T.O. RIOTS WE SAW TEARING DOWN THE OLD NAVY SIGN WHILE WEARING YOUR OLD NAVY JEANS? I JUST LIKE TO KNOW WHO I'M DEALING WITH.

WHEN YOU SAY,"HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE BOOK?"--DO YOU MEAN THE COMIC BOOK WRITTEN BY EDWARD ABBEY--THE ONE THAT SUGGESTS THAT CAPITALISM IS EVIL AND ADVOCATES ILLEGALLY DESTROYING PRIVATELY AND PUBLICALLY OWNED PROPERTY.
THE KIND OF ENVIROMENTAL PORNOGRAPHIC RAG THAT INCOURAGES MALCONTENTS TO SPIKE OLD GROWTH TREES AND THROW BALL BEARINGS AT POLICE OFFICERS AND THEIR HORSES--IS THAT THE BOOK YOU MEAN?

I DON'T OWN A COPY OF IT, BUT I'D LOVE TO HAVE ONE AROUND--JUST IN CASE I RUN OUT OF TOILET PAPER-- YOU KNOW--REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE AND ALL.

AS FOR USING THE QUOTE,"IF YOU DON'T STAND FOR SOMETHING--YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING''--IT'S A GREAT QUOTE AND I'M NOT ABOVE PLAGIARISM.

HOWEVER, IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT MUCH-- I'LL END MY POST WITH A NEW QUOTE.


"KISS MY ASS--I'M AN AMERICAN"

-TED NUGENT '99
_________________________
"Yes, I would support raising taxes"--Kanektok Kid

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#217682 - 11/07/03 08:05 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rob Allen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 311
Loc: Vancouver WA
Piper

Bush is trying to do away with any enviromental regulation he can PERIOD!! If he could he'd strike every law off the books could. He would want Union carbide to dump whatever they want wherever they want if it made them more money.

When you willfully do something that causes something bad to happen. That means that you WANTED the bad thing to happen.
Bush has made hid allegiences, every single one of them is for the purpose of making companies more money or gutting the governments regulatory agencies. In doing so he hurts salmon.

The unintended but known consequences of your actions are your desires whether you want them to be or not. Therefore Bush wants salmon to go extinct.
If you vote for someone who's actions hurt salmon that means you want them to be in power more than you want to save salmon therefore you do not care about saving salmon.. Issues like this are black and white.. it is impossible to want to save salmon and want Bush as president. it's one or the other.. choose wisely

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#217684 - 11/07/03 08:14 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1698
Loc: Brier, Washington
Rob ...your last post really is crap and makes you sound less intelligent that I think you are. Things are never as black and white as you think they are. I recommend wrapping aluminum foil around your whole body with a double layer around your head. That way some of the evil raining down on you will bounce off.
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#217685 - 11/08/03 05:12 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
MasterCaster Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 368
Loc: Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by AuntyM:
Nope. It's our own faults. Always has been.

We are the ones who want cheap electircity. We are the ones addicted to driving gas guzzlers. We are the ones wanting bigger, fancier toys that have to be manufactured. We are the ones who want big houses. We are the ones who keep bringing more children into this world.

If you want to blame another person, even a president, then you are unable to see the reality.

Pretty lame arguments. If you drive a vehicle, then you obviously don't care about salmon etc... rolleyes
Again, The Aunty sums it up...... 'Nuff said thumbs

smile
MC
_________________________
MasterCaster


"Equal Rights" are not "Special Rights"........

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#217686 - 11/08/03 07:15 AM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1104
Loc: brownsville wa.
Another piece of the big picture Martia! rolleyes

I see that you have a new addition to your homepage-websight.Is this where you and your fan club get together without the preident laugh

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#217687 - 11/08/03 05:27 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rob Allen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 311
Loc: Vancouver WA
Grandpa..

Everyone is responsible for their own actions and they cannot blame anyone else PERIOD that is black and white without exception..

Some actions have consequences if the consequences of an action you choose to take are negative then you have chosen the negative consequence also.. In choosing an action with a negative consequence the negative consequence becomes what you desire. Period there is no way around that it's a caft of life and not open to debate thats just the way the world is..

Everyone makes value judgments in life. it cannot be avoided we do it a thousand times a day. Bush in choosing business over responsible enviromental practices has made his choice. He has chosen Business over salmon. The unintended consequences of that decision is that salmon will be harmed. That means by deffinition and fact of life that he would rather have salmon harmed than business to be responsible. That means he wants salmon harmed!! period!! thats it black and white very simple to understand.. it's a basic life principle the decisions you make have consequences. if you want salmon to thrive then you do not do things to harm them..


Aunty M

Thats a false argument... of course we all bear some responsibility in this and I would never deny that. HOWEVER... Bush is undoing something that society said we should do. Bush is saying that the water quality in the columbia does not matter.. This is not a power generation issue thus is a water quality issue!!!

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#217688 - 11/08/03 06:44 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
grandpa2 Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 1698
Loc: Brier, Washington
Rob ..sorry man but your view of what is going on is way off base and distorted by your zealous ideology.,.far , far from black and white.
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#217689 - 11/08/03 09:21 PM Re: Will this hurt salmon?
Rob Allen Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 311
Loc: Vancouver WA
In your opinin grandpa..

well the right wing seem content with the way things are including a declining number of wild steelhead . They are dead set against anything helpful to salmon or steelhead so i find their views completely unreasonable and unacceptable.. We need radical change in the way we approach the enviroment. Not making thoes changes WILL be the end of wild salmonids in the northwest..
I think that the right wing has a horrible attitude towards the enviroment In fact i believe it to be immoral , take this to mean God dissaproves. I believe that to God all issues or morality are black and white including this one..
Now you can disagree with that all you want frsnkly i don't care but do not claim to care about wild fish in the northwest..

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