Where can I find numbers for each river and each month..I have looked at wdfw but it stoped at 1998.. Hope someone can help me out here.. Thanx TM

WDFW will tell you that you must contact the individual tribes for fish counts becasue WDFW has no jursidiction. So good luck getting any accurate info from the foxes guarding the hen house. Let's just say they catch as many as they possibly can.

I cant speek for all but even if you did get anything out of the Quileutes, (dont think they would even give you the time of day), you wouldnt get anything near the truth.

Like everything else in our society, there are examples of those that are helpful and those that are not... those that answer questions and those that don't. The only way to find out is to ask.

Timberman,

WDFW should have tribal catch data. The co-managers have access to each other's catch statistics, and they are all recorded in a central database maintained by WDFW (unless there's been a change I've not heard about). WDFW may not have the most recent data in an easy to access format, so you'd have to go to tribal sources. Most tribes have a fisheries office that collects and maintains catch databases. They are under no obligation to share it with you - nothing against you, they're just paid to do the tribe's work - so some may give you what you want and others may not. It varies.

How complete the data is varies as well. Some tribes track over-the-bank sales better than others, so data quality will vary. If it's any consolation, WDFW has the same problem tracking such sales by non-treaty commercial fishermen and unpunched recreationally caught fish.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo g

You are absolutely correct.... I think all the harvest numbers are under-reported, no matter whether the fish are net-caught by tribal or nontribal, or whether rod-caught and unrecorded by "sportsmen." I'll never figure out how they can come up with a harvest number that anyone can trust when the reporting system is so easily circumvented, especially by the netters.

I understand that netters (tribal or nontribal) can now legally "direct market" to the public. It used to be that all those salmon were purchased by designated fish buyers, and a fish ticket was generated to record the transaction. That way fish managers had a much better idea of just how many fish were being taken.

There is zero incentive for fishermen to report what they sell directly to the public. If fish are being sold without generating a fish ticket, how in the heck can they accurately keep track of what was actually harvested?

FNP,

Actually, it's easier for sport fishermen to circumvent the catch reporting process than for any type commercial fish sales. It's a lot easier to stick a couple salmon in your pack and hike through the woods to your car and take them home without ever punching your card. It's a bit harder to hide a pickup load of salmon, or partial load, and sell them through numerous individual sales, all the while going unnoticed. The law still does require that over the bank sales be recorded on fish tickets. From what I've heard and observed over the years, some are, some aren't.

In an ideal world, all catches would be properly recorded, and it might improve fisheries management a little bit. As it turns out, fish management is routinely no more than 75 to 80% accurate. But that is enough to establish trends. For legal purposes, it's all reduced to a series of numbers, but in the end seasons and harvest allocations would be about the same if harvests and spawning escapements were recorded as high, medium, or low. Oh heck, I've let the cat out of the bag. I've just reduced high science to a simple generalization.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo..you've let the skunk out of the woodpile...WDFW uses voodoo formulas to assist them or guide them in making their sometimes goofy decisions to open and close fisheries. Look up the Murthey method that they use in area 5....computer models with goofy data inputed means goofy conclusions coming out the other end. Witness the current flap over recreational crab harvest numbers. Phone surveys...being done over again now since the first set of numbers was so suspect.
I have aksed WDFW many times for catch records for the tribes and have always been deferred to the individual tribes where answers are usually non-existent. Fish tickets have been sorely lacking in credibility and sometimes the data is so old it is useless. Recreational punchcards have been entered by hand and that data is really stale. So we are stuck with goofy formulas from outdated software on outdated computers. It is always easiest to shut the sportsmen down because we always seem to bend over so easily.

Keep your eyes peeled for the upcoming WDFW commission meeting in Port Townsend next weekend though. Sportsmen will be there in force this time so when the commission asks us to bend over again the news will be watching.

A few years ago the State had Fish Checkers on the Hoh and Solduc for Salmon. This happened for 2 years in the fall. On my last trip I caught a Coho that he weighed, measured etc. We had been talking every time I was over there. So I asked him what they had learned. He told me that from what his boss told him, the tribes were catching more than they thought and we were catching less. That did not surprise me at all.

Grandpa,

I don't mean that the models and formulas are voodoo at all. They are generally standard statistical methods. Part of statistics includes variance and standard error. The quantity and quality of available data, plus the inherent associated variability of salmon and steelhead runs, particularly with small populations, are the direct cause of frequent large errors in making run size forecasts. It's unavoidable. That's why I said we wouldn't get much different results if the input were simply quantified as large, medium, or low. As near as I can tell, the main value in using point estimates is to make paper allocations of harvest between user groups.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

These forcasts are bull,

We should be using sonar counts to make sure the river is geting its fish before harvest is aloud.

Rich,

Fish managers would love to have reliable counts, but sonar doesn't work here on our debris filled rivers like it does in Alaska, where every blip on the computer is a fish. Perhaps technology will overcome this eventually, but not thus far.

So fish forecasts are bull, huh? I often like to say that the price of criticism should be to offer up a better alternative. Here's your chance. What 'you got to offer?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

The most recent Steelhead Harvest Summary (1999-2000) has tribal harvest counts. The front part of the report has sport harvest counts, while the tribal harvest is in the back. The summary is on the WDFW website in Acrobat format. Below is a link.

http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/fish/harvest/99-00/harvest99-00.pdf

The entire system we use just dosent work.

If we wernt managing our rivers on MSY the current way wouldnt be such a big deal it really wouldnt matter.

Salmo, I dont know the answer but we sure need some thing better than we have.

We continue to blame everything but harvest for our problems. When over harvest is the problem.

What we do now is guess how many fish there are gonna be and harvest the maximum amount based on that guess.

Wait till ocean conditions go down the tubes again and our wild stocks numbers are half of what they were when we had bad conditions in the early 90's.

Aunty,

It sucks that everybody knows what the problem is, and your right we cant prove it but even if we could WDFW would find a way to discredit our proof if we had it. It is all about politics and being politicaly correct the fish dont really matter.

fishing related legislation is one of the big problems. Most legislation has been in support of "maximum sustainable harvest" and everything beyond that premise tries to justify more and more harvest even when escapement goals rarely were met for many , many years. When sports fishers back off or are forced to back off the tribes simply swoop in with their "forgone opportunity" scam and harvest the fish anyway. When we make drastic changes in the philosophy behind our fish management we will be on the road to recovery in my opinion.