Okay as I sit here and contemplate a dilema. I support the troops in Iraq and absolutely do not support their mission or their Commander in Chief. It seems like the Support Our Troops organizations are thinly veiled excuses for supporting both the mission and the CIC. So, my question to all, what can I do to support the troops and not support the mission and the CIC? Is it possible? Please let me know - I know there are creative people out there that can help.

Thanks

Tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree, and
say a prayer for our sons and daughters that are putting on the line.

come on now Ed....sounds like you are trolling.

Here's a link to read in your spare time.


The Bubble of American Supremacy
by George Soros


I propose replacing the Bush doctrine of pre-emptive military action with preventive action of a constructive and affirmative nature. Increased foreign aid or better and fairer trade rules, for example, would not violate the sovereignty of the recipients. Military action should remain a last resort.

I thought this was a fishing board!

Eddie;

It's the little things we all take for granted that the troops will miss the most. Care packages are by far the best way you can support those that are deployed. Include lots of reading material, decks of cards, dominoes, latest video releases, local newspapers, etc.

You can probably find a way to become a pen pal or email pal and find out what else they lack.

You're not that far from Ft. Lewis so you could contact the Family Support Group in Waller Hall and ask if you can volunteer some time to help out the families of those deployed. As a matter of fact, I'm sure there are some families right in Puyallup that you could meet and put a care package together for their loved one.

Check out the local National Guard and Reserve Center, too. Some of those guys are taking HUGE cuts in pay to go on active duty. That will certainly put a bind on the household income.

We've got almost half of Lewis over there now with more leaving soon.

Although they have great intentions (albeit somewhat selfish from my perspective), those ribbon tieing flag waving individuals on the overpasses aren't doing squat for the troops morale. Little Johnny Snott over in the sandbox doesn't want you standing out in the rain; he wants pogey-bait! Stuff that can help him get his mind off of where he's at for a moment or two. So, get off the bridge and give blood or mail something today!

Those are just a few thoughts to get the ideas flowing.

Thanks Harley, that's good input.

Grandpa, I don't usually troll, more of a motor moocher!! Seriously, I want to help the troops without expressing support for what GW is doing. It's not just political, I feel that GW is making a serious mistake that will harm this country for a long time. The War on Terrorism is likely to last for a very long time (remember the Cold War lasted 40 years), span several Administrations. My question was serious and I appreciate Harley's thoughtful response.

Gee, I figured coming to a fishing board, where you have completely bashed Bush and the admin is a perfect place to find out "how to support our troops". I mean this the first and really only place I could think of for you to look. Maybe you and goH could write pen pals and put care packages together? You two(and a few others) I am sure could write some thoughtful, caring and sincere letter's expressing your concerns for them over there while explaining that their commander in chief is a sack of crap and a fool but you really are only concerned for their well being… I have a novel concept, why don't you and some of the other's with your leanings go over to this board ( military ) and spew your BS? Opps, I meant to say, express your concerns and questions..

that link is great PMartin....I couldn't find anyone on there who hates their commander in chief though...

eddie-

Its hopeless. The soldiers in Iraq don't need your tainted blood. They don't want your pinko package of pink lady fingers and cupcakes. There are exactly zero soldiers in the military who are against the war, not to mention have any sympathy with the left, also known as the enemy. If you sent them something they'd just throw your supportive actions in the dirt and spit on them with disdain and disgust.

Face it, you are anti-american, anti-freedom, probably a pinko and also likely reside on Capitol Hill.

Forget that your stance against the war would have, had it been heeded, actually saved soldiers lives. Forget that encouraging our president to hasten the entry of UN peacekeeping forces into the situation as soon as possible will also save the lives american soldiers.

Forget that peace protesters in the sixties and seventies did more to save the lives of soldiers than the government ever did, in a war that historical hindsight has told us was wrong.

You are also soft on 'terrah'. 9/11 was probably Clinton's fault even though he wasn't the president any more. Forget that you think Afghanistan was the right move, if you are not supporting the Prez on Iraq's agents of terror then you must not believe what the president said when he stood up and addressed the Congress, the Senate and the rest of the nation when he said "WMD's and direct Al Qaeda connections"

Drop everything and believe unto your Lord the president or forever burn in the cacaphonous fiery walls of hell.

...
...

...failing that, a nice copy of Hustler magazine and some beef jerky are the two direct avenues to most 18-20 year olds hearts.

Eddie, I'm right there with you...I have friends on active duty in Iraq, three in the 101st (one already grievously injured) and many more were involved in Naval combat operations. The suggestion that you cannot oppose the war without supporting the troops is offensive and itself epitomizes the phrase 'anti-american'.

IMHO, the best way you can support the troops is to vote out the reason they are there in the first place, new aggressive foreign policy in the White House. As evidence of how destructive this administration and its like minded thinkers are, look at some of the above posts (and the one directly below might actually be the best example)............god forbid you should suggest that we come to together and support the troops REGARDLESS of your stance on the war.

they did such a good job in the sixties and seventies that there were 58,000 lives lost, gee thanks. A large number of those lost lives were due to the heavy public pressure of getting out of VN and not letting the military actually do what they do best... Also, by a bunch of left whiners that haven't got a clue. Not to mention all that support of the sixties and seventies protesters included spiting on soldiers returning from home. Gee, what a great bunch of guys/gals...put down the pipe

The only point I agree with in the babble you spouted of with is "Its hopeless. The soldiers in Iraq don't need your tainted blood" couldn't have said it better myself

If you stand so strong with your convictions why don't you go to the site I had mentioned above and sprew it over there??? I mean since we who agree with our pres are marching in line with every step (in your head) maybe you can find more people like you and your friend from the 101 on that site? Start a thread over there, I'd love to follow it...

Pmartin - Okay, so I've registered at the site you linked, there seem to be about 500 forums on the site. Please be so kind as to point me in the direction of the forum that you feel would be best suited for my question. I'm not interested in getting flamed (here or there), nor am I interested in debating the Vietnam War again. I recognize that you feel I'm completely wrong and that I need my head examined. That is part of what makes America great - we all get to try and understand each others point of view. I came to this board to ask the question because this is the board that I spend the most time on and know that there are folks here who can point me in the right direction. I'm hopeful that your link to the Military.com board is given in the spirit of getting my question answered. Please give me your suggestion where I can respectfully ask my question and get an answer without debating the issues of the day or my feelings about the Commander in Chief .

I think this one support our troops may be of help? Not being a wise acre here but I am sure that there are many other people with your same concerns that may be able to answer some of your Q's.

other sites

adopt a soldier

main forums

an additional note: this is a great site for getting in contact with old buddies

Pmartin - thanks for your quick reply. There are a number of ways mentioned in that forum that I feel very comfortable with. I appreciate the guidance.

Eddie,
You handled this thread well. I like your style!

This thread gave me some ideas as well - Thanks.

Jeff

Great idea Aunty, it works on many different levels and I just might get a new fishing buddy out of the deal.

How about stepping back a bit and taking into consideration the effect and meaning of the presidents actions to others besides yourself.

There is a great article in the latest Newsweek about Singapores Lee Kuan Yew. It puts a different spin than what you see of CNN or read in the Seattle Times.

from the article
A great quote, " When America and Europe are divided, when Japan is hesitant, the extremists are emboldened and think they can win against a divided group."

Another, " Many Europeans think they can finesse the problem, that if they don't upset Muslim countries and treat Muslims well, the terrorists won't target them. But look at Southeast Asia. Muslims have prospered here. But still, terrorism and militancy have infected them."

Last, " Iraq has become a test of American perseverance. You must see it through, and I believe you will....If you walk away from Iraq, the jihadis will follow you wherever you go. You may think you have left them behind, but they will pursue you. Their ambitions are not confined to any one territory of people."

Makes lots of sense!!! If you get a chance read the whole article.

Every one I have talked with that hates the president and the polocies does so based on single issues ie abortion, Ashcrofts polocies etc.
National defense overrides any single or combination of issues and party lines. Something Bill Clinton never understood as he based his decisions on polling.

Theking...you blew it with the last sentence.

Which brings up the issue...once again....if we all need to support our commander in chief no matter what then why the 8 years of Clinton bashing?
And why bash him now? He isn't in office anymore. Or is it only okay to bash former Commanders in Chief's?

SPILT MILK

Great stuf. I imagine the original contstructors of our country would appriciate some of this. I have a 20 year old son who has taken up with liberal crowds and is spewing the company line at every oppurtunity. He wears the clothes, has the bumperstickers, and the lifestyle to go with it. I have to be careful , yet say what needs to be said. He's a young and growing , evolving person with a great deal to learn. I find myself focusing on getting the facts straight, and how what he says affects others. I try to use his natural tendency to question everything, to be his advantage. Youth is drawn to the liberal line because of this.

My Dad told me once, "Liberals are people who have nothing, and want what you have worked for without working for it. They offer no solutions, only discontent."

" While a conservative has worked hard for what he has and wants to protect it. They resist change, and believe you must make a sacrafice to succeed( a very strong work ethic)."

Dad is a republican . And while I agree with some of this, there's plenty of disfunction to go around. And it all stems from one problem. No respect. We can no longer argue and lose. We must "win at all cost". Problem is, "the cost", is our own future. When the conservatives defiled the office of the president for a sexuall matter, I was disgusted. Because I respect the office. I feel you can find fault in anything or anyone if you choose to.
And now the democrats are defiling the office. They are perpetuating a game of destructive politics started whenever. Point is, it's counterproductive. They dont seem to be able to stop themselves. Not either party.

We, brought together because of our fondness of fishing, have a choice. Do we embrace our commonality, and respectfully discuss the issues of our times, or do we stick to the party line and pi$$ it all away in a biatchout? I respectfully admire the responses that ask questions. It's a functional process for finding solutions.


I know i'm rambling, but feel there may be others that feel as I do. I love a spirited discussion, as long as all involved realise it must be done for the sake of truth and discovery, rather than discredditing the oppisition.

I like the conservative aproach at this point in time because they are making the tough decisions to protect the country. I dislike thier policies on the enviornment and personal freedoms. I dont like the fact our political parties have let rich special intrests be a platform which the issue divides the party itself. Such issues would be best served with no party affiliation.

So I'm not sure what that makes me. And I feel pretty good I dont stick to one party line.

But as I told my son, attacking the president for his actions to date are disrespectful to all who put thier lives on the line to protect you! I have no doubt the actions he's taken have saved lives from every civilized country in the world, and all that hope to be so. Which without these actions will never have the chance to be. I asked him to find a way to say what he feels, by asking questions. The seeds we plant will grow. But we must first treat each other with respect, to be respected by others.


No, it's not easy. You cant be perfect. Most of the time you should not pass up the oppurtunity to keep quiet. But the ability to be an impartial advocate for success is what seperates men from boys.

Hairlipangler -

Wonderfully put. That's the attitude needed in order to have mature, thought provoking, spirited discussions.

Hopefully others will realize that a hateful partyline mentality is much more dangerous to the future of this country than the threat of terrorism.

stlhd,

Please show me where I bashed Clinton. I pointed out he had a weak foreign policy because he based his decisions on polling. History clearly shows this. BTW as a conservative I voted for Clinton over Dole and still believe he was the better candidate.

Couldn't agree with ya more GoH. Maybe you should practice what you preach before critiquing others?

Theking, I was simply trying to point out the hypocrisy of some on this board. Some on this board have done nothing but trash Clinton, who was commander in chief over the troops during a few battles, but then turn around and claim some of us are un-american and un-patriotic for disagreeing with the current administration. The bias invalidates any argument they might "sprew".

Pmartin -

Touché.

Although I fail to see the true relevance here of a tongue-in-cheek post I made quite some time ago, it does somewhat corroborate stlhead's comment to Theking. Not that he needed any help, mind you.

By the way, I do find it quite complimentary, and somewhat amusing, that you save my posts for future reference. Just like fingernails on a chalkboard, aint they? Oh, and thank-you for helping me make my point so eloquently.

just used the search function and pulled up your moniker. sort of interesting that the first post I looked at out of your 300+ posts came up with that quote.

Stlhd,

I agree. It is even a trend with the politicains now. It used to be that ex presidents congressman etc would not trash the current admin. Now they do it openly and even over seas. I think that example has set a poor image for most Americans to follow.

Ed...I have been thinking about what you are asking here and wondered about a couple of things. First, why do you feel the need to "support the troops"? It sounds like a guilt thing when it comes from someone so vehemently opposed to the mission and the commander in chief. It almost seems like you may feel that the soldiers are also opposed to their mission and their commander in chief and are being forced to serve both. Since all of them are volunteers I don't suspect many oppose their mission and I know most of them respect their commander in chief. I'm sure all of them would rather be home but understand what their job is.

A simple analogy would be likening this to a football game. The members of the team hate the game and despise their coach but play the game anyway. So you could support the players in their dilemma and still hate the coach and despise the game. If the football team was made up of players who loved the game and loved and respected their coach they would probably question your motives for "supporting" them.

Most of the soldiers in Iraq I have heard on the news being interviewed say that what they want most is to know that America is behind them all the way and their mission and when they say support they don't mean it the same way you might.

I saw the footage of President Bush's visit to Iraq and I also saw the footage of Hillary Clinton's visit to Iraq. There was a huge difference in the reception they both got from the soldiers. Hillary was "supporting the troops" but trashing the mission and the commander in chief . The president, on the other hand, was there letting everyone know that we are not going to cut and run and he was letting the soldiers know that it is because of them that America stays safe. I am quite confident that the soldiers welcomed the president's "support" much more than Hillary's.

So I guess the bottom line is this: Can you realistically support the troops and still belittle their mission and their commander in chief? I honestly don't believe you can. You can be polite and nice to an individual soldier with gifts or emails or whatever but include your anti-war, anti-Bush message as a footnote to your "support" and see what kind of reception your "support" gets.

I know you are an intelligent , level headed guy who I respect and like very much but we will continue to disagree on political issues I guess. If I could only convince you to move over to the Sharpton campaign!

Grandpa2,

You've come a long way from:

"sit down and shut up!"

Okay, I think we've had enough for the NFR politics today. Thanks