I guess WDFW has decided what to do about the protest at Pt Townsend:

Last areas of Sound, Strait will close to sport crabbing

OLYMPIA - The last areas of Puget Sound and the Strait of Juan de Fuca open to recreational crab fishing will close for the season at 4 p.m. Dec. 14, the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) announced today.

I bet you will see the Tribes out crabbing though.... Wanna bet??

MC

Our efforts to boost sports crabbing will have effects for the 2004 season. And yes the tribes will be crabbing and fishing and killing deer and elk and harvesting geoduck, seals and birds and spending alot of the profits on booze.

Wow, the bigotry is running rampant I see. Do some of us like to fume about others just to pass the time or is there any thought that goes behind this stuff?

Tribes have there harvestable amount, the State has theirs. When the Tribes take their share they shut down and the State keeps fishing its share. Conversely, when the State takes its share they shut down and the Tribes keep fishing their share.

What is so hard to understand about this concept??? The Tribes don't necessarliy fish when we do and we don't necessarily fish when they do. Its the "CO" in co-management.

If our crab quota is up, then we go home. If the Tribes still have some left then they keep fishing... HELLO?

pacificnw.....nothing to do with racism. The tribes abuse their rights and if you don't think so you have alot of reading to do.

I do not begrudge you your opinion. But, I respectfully disagree. The Tribes, and the people fishing under tribal regulations, are doing no more or no less "abusing" of their rights than the State of Washington, and the people fishing under state regulations, is doing.

I've been in this business a long time and there is no one entity or government or co-manager that is more "correct," or more "holier" than another.

pacifican,

We are not blind as everymone may want us to be.

We know what the hell goes on, we have eyes and we use them.

Im sory but you may be the one who is blind or who only sees what he wants.

Well, I don't get paid to be blind and I work hard at what I do. There are relatively few people who are "in the business" of fish and shellfish resource management in this region... those that I think can make the claim that they "know what goes on."

Again, and with respect, we all have opinions but some are more informed than others.

Once John Q gets pissed, what's he going to do? Do you think the sport fisher is going to elect the states next Governor? If not what is John going to do? Are not the commissioners appointed for a number of years?

Lets see, we have how many sport fishers in our state….and we have how many "people" who do not buy licensees or fish in our state

Well I guess I just answered my own question

Way to get fired up AuntyM....pretty interesting dialogue so far. What I want to know for the resident "expert" on this thread is whether the WDFW can shut down the indians if there is a conservation reason to do so. If wild steelhead retention is made unlawful could WDFW stop the indians from retaining wild steelhead?

i think i mentioned once that maybe a intiative by the people is in order to elect those in the wdfw for there selected spots..that will put people (hopefully) that dont want to jus make people happy, but will honestly bring about some good for the resources, unlike koening, what the hell does he do to deserve that spot when there are many who are better at seeing that wild steelhead need to be released, i do not understand the logic of one who is on the board, who has that view..

No, WDFW cannot "shut the indians down." WDFW does not regulate indian fishing. Tribes regulate indian fishing. You folks that have been around so long should know this by now. If there is a conservation reason to close fishing then ALL fishing is closed, including catch and release sport fishing. Simple as that.

Pacificnw ... call it bigotry if you like. It isn't even if it may sound like it. Frankly, I see that as a typical response anytime the tribal rights / actions are questioned.

On the coastal rivers, your line of reasoning is way out of line:

Never once since I've been fishng out this way (1987) has their been an increase in limit or season length for sporties in season.

Never once have I seen the tribal harvest cut off in season because they were taking too many more than sportfisherman.

It is a regular occurance on our streams for netting days to be carried over to the future because of "unfishable conditions". Does that mean that if we're sharing in the same manner that I can keep four brats next time I go fishing after the rivers were blown for a day??

At least twice, tribal members continued to net even though the entire sport fishery was closed due to emergency order. Examples: the fall netting two years ago on the Quillyute system and back in 97 or so when the Hohs contniued to net the wild run of steelhead after the river was closed to all sports fishing.

Sorry, not buying into the PC thinking ...

WOW, so leaving nets full of fish to rot is ok on the Nootsack??, saw it many times, also saw many fish rotting in truck beds on the Duwamish, what happens???Nothing,

If a sportsman was cought doing anything remotely close he would be hung by his nut$ and be in the paper, lose his rights, pay many dollars and possibly have his stuff confiscated,

I am open minded but you are posting on the wrong board if you looking for anyone to agree with you, way to much bad water has gone by and way to much documantation has been shown to the authoritys with nothing being done, to clean up the Tribal bad guys.

thanks for adding some insight into this Bob...

pacificnw sounds like a tribal member to me.

This notion that the tribes are not touchable by WDFW is not so. We as a state are being way too PC and suffering immensely for it. Things have gone way overboard in favor of the tribes.

I think one way to stop this is for the state of Washington to legalize gambling and bring in Las Vegas interests to compete directly with the tribes. Overwhelm the tribes with competition and shut down their monopoly of gambling. Stop giving the tribes any money from the federal treasury and put fences around their reservations with border crossings for them to go through from their sovereign nation into the USA. If they want their own nations so be it. If they want to assimilate into our society then they need to start acting like citizens and not a cocky group of outsiders dictating how our society functions to serve their interests. The tribes have not proven to be true comanagers of our fisheries but adversaries with a seat at the table taken by force.

I suspect the citizens of this country will wake up soon to the lopsided treaty situation and do something about it. Until then every sports fisherman should document the abuses every chance they get. Publish photos whenever possible. Show the proof and shut down people lilke pacificnw who are so far out of touch it is incredible.

BOB ..maybe you can repost the photos from last season.

BOB - First of all, let me say that I appreciate you making this board available for those of us that like to read-write about sport fishing. I find there is lots of useful information that I can use when I am out there on the streams or the saltchuck. It is also useful for those of us that can share our knowledge of how the fisheries operate.

Bigotry is not what I call it. The posts I refer to simply fit the definition. Its not my definition.

My reasoning is based on involvement in fisheries management on the coast and around the OP since 1976. So, it is not out of line, it is experience.

Whether the sport limits or seasons have stayed the same or not has little to do with the Tribal fisheries. The State manages its harvestable amount and the Tribes manage their harvestable amount. Some perform their duty well, others do not. This should be of no surprise.

Many fisheries are based on harvest rates and these are calculated from historical catch and effort models. If days not fished one week are moved to another then those days are representative of different catch and effort which are accounted for in the harvest model.

Again, Tribal fisheries are not "linked" to sport fisheries in the way you are inferring. Each is fishing on a separate portion of the harvestable amount.

No PC thinking, just the facts.

budnate - I share your concern for inadequate enforcement of the rules. All the Tribes I know of have wastage language in their laws and regualtions. It is similar to that in the WA state codes. If someone retains fish or shellfish during a fishery and does not care for the catch they are subject to fines... in both indain and non-indian fisheries. I think the enforcement problem is similar as well. Neither the State nor the Tribea have adequate funding and manpower for natural resource enforcement. I can think of many wastage problems in the sport fishery. This is not unique to the Tribes.

I am not looking for agreement, just offering another perspective. I don't pretend to know everything. But what I do know I wanted to share so that folks here could at least consider another viewpoint. I would even like to challenge the popular thinking here. But, if you would rather only listen to the oft-repeated view that someone has witnessed an indian fisherman doing something bad then all Tribes and all indian fishermen are bad, thats fine with me. Its a free country.

And, I could be posting on the wrong board. I am certainly not here to cause resentment. I can simply read what I want to read and keep that different perspective to myslef. Thats fine by me. But what kind of board would this be if everyone did that?

grandpa - Nope... not a tribal member nor am i even distantly related to a tribal member. Just another guy offering an informed view, like anyone else. You don't mind that do you?

The Tribes regulate tribal fisheries. The State regualted state fisheries. The two are not the same. What is so hard to understand?
Its not up to the state to be PC or not. This is federal law we are talking about, not State law.

I remember the disagreement on the Quillayute last year very well. Not totally familiar with the inside situation there. But as I recall, things were worked out eventually. More importantly, was the chinook escapement met? If I remeber correctly, it was.

Well, I hope that people are still allowed to voice their views and offer their perspectives on this board. I have enjoyed reading about the fishing experiences posted.

I agree that a different point of view is always welcome by me,

I also agree that there are slob sportsmen as well that do not take care of there game well, But generally they are not succseful in obtaing it by hook or ?? due to there lazy approach,

where as a just about anybody can set a net and gather most if not all of a of a run coming on by, so we have a ding dong that maybe cought one fish and did not take care of it, or we have 50 plus fish going to waste, this is my big problem with how things have been, I have seen pictures and heard of others but take it with a grain of salt, I can say that I have seen plenty of wasted fish in nets and truck beds and also boats with fish rotting in them as well, sad they take the effort to go through the motions and not finish the job, it would appear that it is a selfish act to take there share???????


Bud.

Pacificnw

I don't agree with a lot of members on a lot of different fishery issues. I find that lots of times I am ignorant about an issue, and find it most interesting to debate it until I feel that I have a better understanding or feeling of the issue. I guess it's because I just have a "need to know" why! We hear a lot of BS and very little facts! Good debates about these issues always separate the two

I may not agree with what other people may have to say some times, but without debating the merit of the subject, how can we ever learn the facts? I believe that a person should be allowed to debate his position or point of view until he becomes repetitious.

Even those I may not fully agree with you at some point, I do find that you are making people think (one of my favorite things to do ), and you at lease attempt to support your posts with facts, and not just emotions. I am also sure that we will have our differences on some issues (If you’re a biologist that's almost a given), but that will just make me learn more. I hope that others will treat you the same way, and let you share your opinions and knowledge with this board. New thoughts, new ideas, and new information is what makes this board so great. Lots of us have strong opinions that are almost formed in rock, so you can rest assured that you will have your hands full in trying to crack some of the rocks!

I for one, look foreword to hearing what you know, and have to say about our fisheries and its resources. There isn't a week that goes by where I haven't learned something new from this board. That's why new thoughts and information will always be appreciated by me, even those they may not be the same as my own.

Thanks for jumping into our fish pan!

PS; If you work for WDFW, please don't take my attacks on WDFW to personally! It's the "managers" that I have the biggest problems with …not the field people! I have a long history of disagreeing with how WDFW's has managed the Cowlitz River


Cowlitzfisherman

cowlitz - Thanks for your insight. I expect to agree with some and disagree with others, as you do. That's one of the features of your society that makes us so unique. But when some folks make statements that are so blantantly wrong I feel compelled to offer up another view. Yes, I am a biologist. I do not work for WDFW but did at one time.

Like all of us, I definitely want to see our natural resources managed in an appropriate way. But my views seem to diverge with others in that I would prefer the benefits of our harvestable fish and shellfish to be shared according to federal law. If that means putting the State and Tribal managers on the spot and keeping them there, so be it. I think managers need to be challenged too... if it is done in a well-thought-out and respectful manner. Off the soapbox now.

Since Bob said it so eloquently I will say I wish I had read this first before posting my thread.... I still feel that this throwing around of the "B" and "R" words has got to stop. It wont, because it has become such an effective tool at guilting people and shutting them up.
Heck, you know they beat old Michael J. up when he was arrested because of racial prejudice.......

Thanks for the cool-headed post Bob. That is why it's a good thing you are the moderator.

MC

And that "Mr. Brain" is kinda like Congress handling their own salary increases, isnt it.... God I hope you didnt pay a lot for that degree you got..... You are probably the Director of WDFW as smart as you are....

MC

Now THAT"S an intelligent remark.

The "morality police" have entered the building. It always amazes me that some people just assume the State does such a great job managing our resources... and that the Tribes are just another user group. Don't be satisfied to live with your conceptions and prejudices... challenge yourself to find out what is really happening out there. Open your mind.

About all I can remark about this topic is I personally have seen FAR more fish left to rot in neglected tribal nets than I have seen snagged by sporties.

I have not seen a mass of fishermen at the mouth of any river so thick as to virtually prohibit migration of endangered or threatened fish to their spawning beds. But I have seen nets laid out so thick that nothing can escape.

Management?

Riiigght.

Something to check out.
www.olemiss.edu/orgs/SGLC/tribal.htm

Lets go back to pre Boldt and look at the runs of Salmon and Steelhead in the Snohomish system. Then go back 2 years after Boldt and look at the runs. Not much changed in that 2 years in terms of logging, population, Dams etc. The only thing that changed was the tribal netting the mouth of the system and run size declined drastically from that point forward.

Any ordinary man can clearly read the Point Stevens treaties and see we should abide by thier intent and spirit as they were written and when they were written. I have yet to see reference to motorized boats, fiberglas,Aluminum ,nylon nets ,Loran,GPS etc in the treaties. Afterall These things are the inventions of the whiteman and aboriginal people are trying to preserve thier culture and religion separate from the whitemans influence. Or is it more of a case that the tribes see a special privlige and are taking economic advantage of it inspite of the effect on the resource.?

TheKing,
Did you know the State of Washington made the tribes switch to nets from there normal methods? Check this out
www.msaj.com/papers/commfish.htm

I think many of the people on this thread are having a problem reconciling the current state of affairs against the purported motivations of the laws:

"The relationship between the tribes and the anadromous fish had religious significance. One aspect of this was the First Salmon ceremony, designed to insure that the fish would perpetually return. The attitudes of respect, reverence, and concern for the salmon, reflected a profound conception of the interdependence and relatedness of all living things, which was a dominant feature of the native Indian world view. Indian procedures insured that salmon were never wantonly wasted and that water pollution was not permitted."

Apparently the current state of affairs is one geared toward ensuring an equitable financial situation, not cultural preservation. How else can you rationalize a 50/50 split, or any other fractional apportionment?

Finegrain
Woodinville

Duroboat,

Yes. I would expect the tribes to challenge that ruling based on religous claims. Harvesting Salmon is first a religous expirience for the Aboriginal people before any other puropse. According to their oral traditions. The state was wrong to impose upon thier religous beliefs. Whiteman spirits of Mercury, Johnson,Evinrude,dow,Corning,BSF and the Oriental spirtits of Honda and Suzuki are interlopers to their faith:-)

Pacificnw have you ever heard of the word Egotistical???
Look it up some time, it might help you!
But I dought it.
Ramprat

I ask you again pacificnw....what tribes to you belong to? It might help understand your positons better.

And to any person that would sincerely believe in the "religeous significance" of the salmon to the tribes in all of this I would say..... "Have you ever watched them harvest salmon?"
I guess tossing a salmon 20 feet to bounce on the rocks and then be tossed into the back of a pickup could be confused with ritualistic worship. Maybe I am confused here....
I have known A FEW indians in my life that really did see the salmon as a religeous icon, but they only fished for subsitance (no gillnetting) and probably took no more salmon a year than I do..... I enjoyed participating in those "feasts" and also the rest of the religeous acts that went along with it.
Cultural practices are a beautiful thing, whether it is "The return of the Salmon celebration", Cinco de Mayo", or "Independence Day"..... Abusing a resource and taking advantage under the auspice of "Culture" is a crock of BS and needs to end.

MC

ramprat - Yes, I know the definition of the word egotistcal so I guess I don't need help. But what are you trying to say? That you are egotistical? OK by me.

grandpa - You ask again, I answer again; No I am not a member of a Tribe nor am I related to anyone who is. Whats your point? That anyone with the beliefs I have must be a Tribal member? Sorry, can't prove you right.

Not sure why you guys come across as so antagonistic on this subject. I suppose because there are views out there other than your own.

Earlier in this topic I mentioned the word bigot and many people went off on that saying we should not make this a race issue. Since we are getting out the dictionary and looking up the definitions of words, let me offer one...

bigot - one who holds blindly and intolerantly to a particular creed, opinion, etc. (Webster's New World Dictionary)

Those that think the word bigot is aimed at them seem to automatically assume this has a racial conotation. But my comments have to do with the commonly held beliefs out there that we non-Indians have some involvement, some say-so regarding the conduct of the Tribal fisheries... the same as if we were talking about a Canadian fishery, for example. The fact of the matter is, we don't. That is the point I was trying to make.

Its just a different view, a different perspective meant not as a personal attack on anyone... just a challenge to see if anyone would like to consider a differing opinion... one that I do not hold onto blindly ;-)

Happy Holidays!

Pacificnw,

I think grandpa should be asking what tribe you work for. Its very easy to see you support the way things are and are very sympathetic towards tribal interests. Its nearly impossible for any sport angler to have sympathy towards tribal Fisheries and be happey with them unless they have tribal interests in mind, (meaning thats where your paycheck comes from?).

Race is not an issue here on this BB but actions are and not agreeing with ones groups actions and voicing your discontent is not bigotry.

The idea that no one has any say over indian fishing and hunting is just plain wrong. We don't have much pull but we do have some. We can prevent the tribes who go off reservation and gut shoot cow elk leaving them to die for no good reason. We can prosecute them for waste and greed. The problem is we don't have the balls to nail their hides to the side of the barn when it is the right thing to do. And that has nothing whatsoever to do with bigotry.

Pacificnw,
If you could truly (OPEN YOUR MIND) as you say you might realize that this post is not about Bigotry but frustration
We are all frustrated from watching over the years, the way that the Indians seem to get special treatment with no regard for our recources.
I have seen Bloated kings in the nets high and dry at low tide that had been there for a long time. Ive seen fish stripped of eggs and left to rot, nets in the river when the river is closed because of endangered runs ect.
This doesn't mean that all Indian fishermen are bad but this is what we see on the rivers.
This is what stands out in our minds, and it gets very frustrating.
On the other hand I have seen plenty of I won't call them fishermen lets say non Indian poachers who snag fish, keep over the limit, Fish closed waters ect.
To come out and use the word Bigot I believe it was something like Bigotry running rampant or something to that effect was probably not the right thing in my opinion to come out and say. Although most of us at one time or another have posted things (out of frustration)we wish we could take back, It really pays to read between the lines before you click the send button.
Ramprat

Only because of folk like yourself that believe nothing can be done. If Canada or any other "Sovereign Nation" were to use and abuse our resource, we would put a stop to it.
I firmly believe that if we can get folks like yourself to proverbially "Grow a set of balls", we may be able to get things evened up a bit when it comes to our precious resources...... Why is it that the far left in this country seems to think it is wrong to tell anyone "NO MORE", even if they are out of line and need to hear it????


MC

I believe that if some of you were born as natives you would be doing what the rest of the natives are doing whether it is right or wrong. The Duck

i think he works for the fed`s

That is what most of you cannot get (which floors me)...... I AM NATIVE AND I WAS BORN HERE!!!

There, that too hard to understand? Why should we (other natives) be excluded or dismissed only because we are native BUT THE WRONG COLOR of native...... That is wrong, and in a society that loves to brag how "inclusionary" we are and "race blind" we are becoming....... We sure love to leave out those that happen to belong to the MAJORITY....

Sad to say, but I am sure that it will never change.....

MC

Mastercaster,sorry to ruffle your feathers but I did say "some of you". The Duck

Rich - I think you are missing the point. This is not about me. It does not matter who I work for, the tribes, the state, the feds, consultants, greenpeace, etc. It does not matter who I support or who I sympathize with. Whether I am happy with tribal fisheries or not, is not at issue. What is at issue is misinformation and different ways of looking at how our resources are co-managed. I only offer a view if it might help correct a misconception. And I am one who looks at both sides, all sides, of fisheries management. Why? Because its the law. And an example of bigotry is the view that one side of our co-management arrangement is doing nothing but destroying our resource. It just isn't true.

grandpa - the state has no control over indian fishing. If there is a conservation issue then both side cease fishing. Thats the way it works. Again, these are not my beliefs, thats just the way it is. As for hunting, this is another arena entirely. Treaty hunting rights have not been adjudicated in federal court as fishing rights have. There are many, many instances where the State has prosecuted indians under State law and will likely continue doing so. Yes we do have the balls and we are using them.

ramprat - Again, this is not my mind we are talking about here. Believe me, mine is open. I deal with what people want from the resource on a regular basis... indian fishermen, commercial fishermen, sport fishermen, developers, legislators, environmental groups, feds, etc. My mind is opened on a continual basis. I could not agree more that fishermen who break the rules are in need of a ticket and conviction if guilty... ANY fishermen. Having said that, bigotry is indeed the right word. Sorry, but the shoe fits.

MasterCaster - No, we would not put a stop to it. We would negotiate for what we want. That's how it works. I am sure you know that Puget Sound chinook are listed as threatened under our (USA's) ESA. Did you also know that of all the Puget Sound chinook harvested in marine waters each year, most are caught in Canada? We don't like it and we will attempt to change the situation through negotiation and use of the co-management process... much like the process we use with the tribes.

boater - Again, this is not about me or who I work for. Suffice to say I know about the management of our fisheries resources in this State and I am sharing this perspective. It is not about liking it, it is about understanding how things work.

Speaking of open minds... let me share a perspective that I have been confronted with on a number of occasions. I read a lot about perspectives here but what about the perspective of the "other" side? I can share one. Many complain about the treaties. But how many know that indians complain about the treaties as well? You might be surprised how many indians would be happy to do away with the treaties... all we have to do is give western washington back to them.

Merry Christmas

Give me a break Picificnw

You never told us who you work for?

Ill tell ya what I do and Im sure 99% of the people here will tell ya what they do!

Why are you affraid to tell us who you work for?

No matter I think we all have a real good idea

Im a cop in Eastern Washington. I spent nearly 4 years as a cop on the Quileute Reservation. I spent alot of time around the fisherman and fish buyers and saw a lot of disturbing things. Im not just talking about the river fisheries, im talking about all the fisheries.

Obviously you dont know [Bleeeeep!] about what is going on.

Pacificnw,
I really don't like to judge someome until I have walked in his shoes but,
It seems as though this time my first instinct was right you are Egotistical, you have a closed mind, Won,t listen to what any body else has to say and you are probably trying to see how many people you can p*** off on this board before you are booted.
I for one am done with your one sided closed mind ego trip posts (now where is that ignore button)
have a nice life
Ramprat

pacificnw has done nothing to be booted. There is nothing wrong with somebody having an opinion and offering it up in a non threatening and logical manner.

Merry Christmas JG....Thanks for being the level head in this opinionated swamp full of crocodiles.....You know what they say about crocodiles: Big mouth...little ears.

Oh by the way...When the state has closed fisheries for conservation reasons it is simply not true that the tribes stop fishing along with everyone else. I have said it before, the tribes are entitled to 50% of the fish but when the harvestable number is ZERO...50% of ZERO is not ZERO if you do math the indian way.

Oh yah, Merry Christmas

I agree with you Jerry!

It's good to let people talk and voice their opinion, as long as they do it civilly and stay within the guide lines that each of us have accepted when we joined onto Bob's Board.

Have a Merry Christmas

PS; you have done a good job of moderating Bob's board!

Rich - I AM trying to give you a break. I am trying to inform you. I don't care who you work for. And who I work for makes no difference. Nothing personal. Of course, I disagree with your last remark. Trying to keep a civil tone here, man.

Ramprat - I kinda figured. Too bad you are p***ed off.

Jerry - Thank you... and Merry Christmas to you too.

grandpa - I could not agree more about the crocodiles. And, by definition, a true conservation issue requires all fishining to cease.

All - As with most things in our society today, this board must deal with the good and the bad. It is really good that this board is a place where folks can share fishing information and experiences. It is really too bad that this board also seems to be a popular place for the "lets hate the other side and feel good about ourselves for doing so" crowd. There are too many experts who already know "everything that is going on." Why should other people confuse them with the facts? As has been pointed out by a number of "regulars" on this board, this is no place for a neutral party to express ideas and facts... these just get in the way. Here is a quote for ya... I just made it up; "The glare of the truth is polarized by those in the "right."

And, by the way, no hard feelings. If I see ya out on the water, I'll give you a wave and wish you good luck.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Merry Christmas Aunty! ....you too grandpa!



Cowlitzfisherman

ok i gota question, where was the non-tribal share of the grays harbor kings caught at ?