Your disdain for the WSC really shows through Cow.

Todd and everyone else from WSC. If you really loved the steelhead as much as you say, why are you fishing the skagit when there is no hatchery season? You guys preach about hooking mortality and not taking wild fish out of the water but you want to fish so bad that you come up here and fish on wild fish, what a crock of ****. Stay off of the wild fish or shut up about them.

I will give you a thousand dollars if you can prove I fished for any wild steelhead anywhere this year.

Thanks Bob for taking the time to attempt to answer some of my question. If you recall, an I know that you do, since day one (almost 4 years ago) I have always said that each and every river is a dynamic system and needs to be manage as so. I have never changed my opinion on this issue and you know that to be a fact.

When you and others go back and reread the "original thread" on this issue, you will see that my argument has always been about the "process" more so then if "wild steelhead" release is right or wrong. You, like me, both claim to have the fishes "best interest" in mind. But we do differ on statewide band on wild steelhead release. As a retired fishing guide, I fully understand why you, as a guide would love to see such a band in effect. Let's talk turkey with out getting mad at each other on this issue.

You have been up front with me, so I will be up front with you on this issue. If you choose to drop me from your board for doing so, that is 100% your right and choice. But not to be up front with you on this issue, would be a discredit to both you and me and the members of your board.

From a "guides" point of view, I can understand your desire to have catch and release on steelhead for several reason. One reason is that you are almost guaranteed that "fishing" will be to continued, even if it is only on a c&r fishery. That means that you would not have to worry about sending back any refunds to your customers because the river was shut down due to escapement problems. That's becoming a big problem nowadays.

It's pretty hard to have to return deposit money back that has already been spent (been there and done that) because that's the way it works for most guides that I know. The deposit are usually part of trips cost. If a guide has an existing established cliental for c&r, he would defiantly be in the driver's seat compared to the guide that has a cliental of only harvesters. Most likely the guy who business is c&r would increase, while others who have practice harvest, would most likely decrease for some time to come.

For some guides, that could mean the death of their business!

You also know, how important it is to a guides business to have a steady cliental of customers. As we both know, it takes years to establish a good cliental. As you and I have both learned from guiding, if condition don't change much from the day before, you are almost guaranteed to find that the steelhead you caught yesterday and released, in all likelihood will likely be there again tomorrow, holding in the same water…. if he hadn't been bonked by another fishermen.

He will probably be there again tomorrow too, if no one else harvests it before you get to fish on him again the following day (this is defiantly a "good point" that you can make for c&r). Some guys claim to have caught the same fish as many as three different times in the same day. Well that is the nature of steelhead, and it doesn't really matter if it’s a wild one, or he's a hatchery one. It's just the nature of the fish, because the fish lacks the ability to remember what pain is. Steelhead natural desire is to keep feeding when it returns to fresh water to spawn, where other salmonids begin to die. As you also know, even when steelheads are not very hungry, you can still piss them off and make them want to kill a plug or some other type of lure when you get it in front of their face. (Believe me… I know how to piss stuff off )

For the most part, fishing generally becomes much more easier for the guide if he does not have to worry about competing with others who are out for harvest. You may disagree with me, and it you're right to do so. I am only speaking from my own 10 years of personal guiding experiences. It is really a hassle when you have to bust your butt trying to get a person or two a couple of fish to "take home". When you fish for "catch and release" you don't really care if you release the fish at side of the boat, or the fish releases itself in mid air. Personally if I was still guiding, and especially in the rivers that you do Bob, I would probably want to promote a catch and release fisher too. It makes sense if you have the cliental that are willing to pay you the big bucks to do it. Apparently you have a good enough cliental built up, and do not have to worry, so that is one more good reason for YOU to promote c&r.

The number one reason that I am against this statewide band is not really the issue of catch and c&r of wild steelhead. Anyone who has followed my postings already knows that my complaint is about the "process" in how it was done! Most of the time I do not keep or kill wild steelhead… but I have killed a few. In the past two years, I have had plenty of opportunities to harvest wild steelhead, but I have not done so! The only different between me saying that I have killed a few, and the other guy that says he NEVER kills wild steelhead, is his own self-denial little world that he lives in! He thinks just because he doesn't bonk it in the head that he has done a good thing. But both you and I, and a whole lot of other fishermen know that some of those fish that we "release" will also die. So who's kidding who about killing wild steelhead? If you got a wild fish that has eaten your bait, jig, lure, or whatever, and it's bleeding heavily, it's got about a 0 chance of surviving. So why not allow a sport fisher to decide when it's best to keep one? Why does it always have to be "all or nothing"? If you really don't want to "kill" wild steelhead, quite fishing for them! Your c&r are killing wild steelhead and that is a FACT!

I really have to hold back my tongue when I hear people on your board make statements like "I NEVER EVER KILL a wild steelhead and I fished them for 20 years". They are just plain ignorant. They claim that the do not "intentionally" kill wild steelhead, but yet they KNOW that there is definitely a percentage of the fish that they hook that will die and that too is also a FACT. So again, who is kidding who?

I could and do support wild steelhead release in rivers that can not support harvest! But at the same time I do not support a "statewide blanket band" of all rivers just because a group of 100 or so fishermen think that it’s the right thing to do. If the statewide moratorium had been the wishes of the "many" instead the "wishes" of a hundred or so fishermen, you would not be hearing me now! IF this truly was the wishes of the MAJORITY of the sport fishermen, I wouldn't have a problem with wsr. But that is not the way that this was played out. Instead a group of about 100 or so people had privately lobbied with a couple Commissioners to get this moratorium passed.

Jerry

You have said:

You are probably correct, but I am not breaking any rules that Bob had asked us to agree to follow by speaking up! I would also have just as much contempt for any other special interest group or users that plans to dominate how I, or others may or may not want to participate in a fishery that I love so dearly. Both you and Bob can go back and reread all my posts concerning this issue, and you will both see that I have never changed my opinion on this issue. Statewide wild steelhead came about because a select group of fishers had lobbied a couple of there commissioners (or maybe a couple of their commissioners i.e., Pelly and Gytenbeek had lobbied WSC) Only WSC knows the real answer to that one!

Clearly, the majority of the public did not know that wsr was going to be considered by the Commission during this regulation cycle. So yes Jerry, I have a problem with how WSC has done its business on this issue. It's my opinion that they were not up front with the public or fishermen in general, and that they went through the back door to get there own way. I just can't forget what the 2 commissioners who brought this issue before the Commission board had said. It speaks mountains for itself!

"Commissioner Van Gytenbeek: I wouldn’t have felt good about asking if there was a proper legal way to bring it forward."

"Commissioner Pelly: So while it did not go through the normal public process with the regulations this year, I think it has been on the hearts and minds of all the fishermen this last year, whether or not it was an actual proposal"

Now that my friend, is why I may hold a little disdain for any "special" interest groups such as WSC.

I not only care about our fish, I also care about my fellow fishermen rights too! When I see that either one (fish or fishermen) rights has been abused, you can rest assured that I will be 100% up front to the parties who took the actions; even if the party truly believed that what they are doing is a good thing. In this case, WSC most likely did truly believe that what they were doing was the right thing to do. For that, I can respect that goal. But when they intentionally cut off OUR established legal process in which WE MUST ALL FOLLOW, then yes, this sport fisherman becomes very disdain!

Maybe the next time around we could support a state wide effort to release all wild steelhead for 1 or 2 years, if its done in an open fashion where all the public is allowed to make their comments and have a say before any decision is made. To bad that it wasn't done that way in the first place. My goal, rather you believe it or not, are to unite all sport fishers and not to divide them. To do that, one must include all sport fishers, and their concerns. There is a lot more to fishing then just hooking that fish! Maybe when this issue is finally resolved, we can all unite as one, and move forward to more important management issues other then statewide c&r for steelhead. To me, statewide c&r is like putting a band aid on a wound that really needs a 100 stitches to close it up. It may make you feel better, but does very little to make it any better!

Eddie

I respect you for not being a hypocrite! You are one of the few persons on this board that "walks the talk".

I have meant no disrespect for either Bob or Jerry. I know at times it may appear or sound that way. I know of no other way to say it other then the way that I truly feel or believe. I never have been one of those kinds of guys that use a lot of honey or sugar to express my views.

I think that you're both great guys, an I won't hesitate a moment to fish with either one of you even those we may have our difference on this issue. My record on this board clearly shows that I care about fishermen's right just as much as I care about the fish.

If I write one more word…..I will have written my first Novel

I will leave it at that!


Cowlitzfisherman

Anybody have an aspirin?

Cow, why do you find it necessary to put your words and thoughts into somebody else's mouth?

Jerry

Please be specific

And I will give a specific response to you question.
What words and in who's mouth?

You know that I can't say much more anymore, because I have been told not to argue!

Ask me a specific question, and I will give a specific answer.

Cowlitzfisherman

Your words as if they were Bob's

As a retired fishing guide, I fully understand why you, as a guide would love to see such a band in effect.

From a "guides" point of view, I can understand your desire to have catch and release on steelhead for several reason

so that is one more good reason for YOU to promote c&r.

From everything that I have read that Bob has posted about WSR the last 4 years I believe that his interest in WSR is that the WDFW's current management style does not promote healthy populations of steelhead. And of course no steelhead no fishing.

Now this I could and do support wild steelhead release in rivers that can not support harvest! But at the same time I do not support a "statewide blanket band" of all rivers just because a group of 100 or so fishermen think that it’s the right thing to do. If the statewide moratorium had been the wishes of the "many" instead the "wishes" of a hundred or so fishermen, you would not be hearing me now! IF this truly was the wishes of the MAJORITY of the sport fishermen, I wouldn't have a problem with wsr. But that is not the way that this was played out. Instead a group of about 100 or so people had privately lobbied with a couple Commissioners to get this moratorium passed.

Do you truly believe that only 100 people support WSR?

Okay Cow ... since YOU brought it up. You state that "... every river is a dynamic system and needs to be manage as so."

Here's the deal. The Quillayute SYSTEM is managed as a system, not on it's individual parts. There have been several instances where the SYSTEM's number is above this magical goal of 5900 fish, but the individual goals for streams such as the Calawah have NOT been met.

Yet, we manage it as a SYSTEM when it comes to the harvest end of things.

As I see it, that's all the more reason for a blanket policy when we're allowing this happen.

The Hoh situation is similar, yet even worse ... the lowest escapement number in over 25 years last season, and we're likley not going to meet escapement there this year either if the nicer weather continues, yet the kill fishery continues.

Why?

"Exceptions" that ought not be exceptions.

You're way off base with some of your reasoning why I support it as a guide. Yes, it's important for me to watch my own tail and the future of my chosen line of work. It's called foresight, it's also called giving a hoot about the resource without putting today's $$$ above everything else.

I chose from day 1 to make my guide service C&R on WS ... in the first few very lean years I painfully turned down trips in which people wanted to retain fish. It's a matter of principles. We all have an impact ... but we can try to lessen it.

Yes, it would likely make fishing better. There were several days this year of sharing stories with long-time clients of how fishing was 10 years ago ... and day-in, day-out this season, it's only been a fraction of that. Better fishing usually also means more fish on the beds, a strange but happy coincidence.

That being said, I don't buy your "competition" or "put the other people out of work" bits one bit. And frankly, I resent your implications of such.

I "compete" with these boats every day. It's actually quite the opposite of what you imply. And if it was all about trying to get the most fish, I would not have voluntarily made decisions over the years of about how we were going to fish that may not be quite as effective at times, but are far easier on the fish ... thus, often I'm putting more time in to equal the success of sometimes more effective, yet higher mortality methods. A landed fish is still a landed fish , regardless of whether it swims off or you crack it in the head.

I have no hidden plans of trying to drive others out of business. Why would I? In most instances, in the timeframes I want my boat to be full, it is. I have nothing to personally gain from drving others out of biz. Most of those that wish to fish C&K for these fish wouldn't fish with me anyhow because this whole thing is "my fault" anyhow.

Many of the local guides that choose to operate C&K will have to make the change sooner or later. It's a plain and simple fact that these runs will not support the harvest pressure forever ... espeically in light of the fact that we're one of the few places left in the world where you can legally kill one of these fish. For those seeking to reatin one of these, they've shifted from rivers with no runs left to those few that still do and sooner or later, C&R fisheries will HAVE to be in place. Hopefully, it'll be sooner than later so we don't have to suffer the same lean runs that other parts of the state now face.

No one has ever said C&R is perfect. yes, there is mortality involved. How much often depends upon the angler. The state says 10% and that's probably close for an average number. It's documented though that with proper rigging and release, it can be significantly lower though too. You still must be near or above escapement though to support these fisheries. So lay off those that have chosen voluntarily to lessen their impact. Sounds to me like a guilt issue of some sort.

Regarding your last remark regarding the majority / minority issue. Let's go back two years. Wasn't over 90% of both written and oral testimony at the WDFW meetins in favor of WSR? Didn't the state's own survey show that is it was roughly 65 / 35 split in favor of WSR? If it's only 100 people, then why did nearly 500 people send in form letters from my site alone in favor of WSR?

Bob- Jerry- Todd- Double Haul

At this point we all differ.

I am done auguring this point/issue with all of you on this Board. It will do nothing more then to cause more resentment among us all who all love to fish. Most likely this issue will be resolved in the court room. I have lots more to say, but it is best to hold off until I am asked!

With that said, I am finished with issue, unless it goes to the next up!

Cowlitzfisherman

It's really bloody pathetic that we are bickering over the last of the fish.

What is even more pathetic is that those that seem to be fueling the bickering are those that are not as involved in the issue or have as high a stake in the issue.

Plus, those that are fueling the bickering, keep asking the same few questions but just in a differant manner. I've seen a few of those opposed to WSR ask the very same question over and over and over again yet each time it is worded a little differantly...maybe because they weren't happy with the first answer and each answer thereafter (because they didn't agree with it).

Those few just seem to be trying to find any little weakness in the WSC, WSR and/or the people that support the WSC/WSR.

And yes, Wild Steelhead Release is NOT perfect but give it a rest. Give those that support WSR a break, they have been defending themselves, WSR and the WSC non-stop the past month and a half and NOT because vaild questions are being asked but because a few of you are finding 20 differant ways to ask the same few questions.

Oh I get it....

Dont disagree anymore because you're tired of defending it. We dont have as much at stake as you therefore we shouldn't have an opinion and should stop discussing it. (sort of arrogant dont you think?)

You keep repeating yourself because you dont have the answers... you didn't think it through. Thats why the answers haven't goten any better!

Seems to me that this is THE place to discuss it, it is fishing related after all! Get used to it, the debate is far from over. Either ignore the posts, or find a way to convince us. But quit complaining!!!!

What ego??...you've made one snide remark regarding me after another. What gives??

Anyways, I do not have a problem discussing the issue but maybe the discussion would be a little worthwhile if those asking the questions could actually ask new questions instead of rehashing the same questions that have been asked over and over and over and answered over and over and over again.

Those in support of WSR keep repeating themselves because you, Cowlitzfishermen etc. keep asking the same questions (eventhough they've been answered over and over and over again...if you don't like the answer, then too bad!).

The questions to the supporters of the WSR have an agressive nature to them and include accusations and questions of one's integrity etc. etc.

ok, i`l ask a new question, lets say i go to an op river where i can retain a wild steelhead and i bonk it and take it home and eat it, that would be my only trip up there and i also dont fish in any targeted catch and release seasons, then durring the same year you go out and catch and release 20 steelhead and using a 5 percent mortality that would equal 1 dead wild steelhead, is my method of bonking 1 wild fish better than you killing 1 durring catching and releasing 20 and having 19 other stressed out fish in the system ?

Go back and read some of my recent posts. You will find answers to your questions a few times over.

i would much rather that you post it here as i`m to lazy to go look for it.

...and I'm too lazy to type it up for the 100th time.

Boater - I'll step up to the plate and take a couple of hacks. You ask which situation is better. Better, of course, requires a subjective judgement - ask 100 anglers, get 115 opinions

For the resource: Virtually no difference, you are left with one dead wild steelhead either way.

For the economy: It probably took Spakey at least 10 trips to catch his 20 fish, my expectation is that there were economic benefits of his 10 trips to the local area rather than your one trip.

For angling opportunity: My guess is that WSR offers more opportunity for anglers. It has been my experience (remember this is subjective) that not all steelhead are good biters. I would guess that the 19 surviving wild steelhead would provide some angling pleasure to other folks as well.

For ethics: (Again, remember this is very subjective, and one man's opinion) My belief is that it is morally superior to release a fish that I really do not need to eat than to bonk it. Changes in societal ethics happen slowly, as subsequent generations live under WSR I feel that the angling community will adapt to the new rules and provide a more vibrant sport for most.

Boater - I may think of more as the coffee kicks in, but hopefully this answers your question.