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#241204 - 04/18/04 12:29 PM Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
So do you think the recent statewide WSR ruling will get rescinded?

I'd like to make a friendly little bet with Todd of WSC. \:\)

If it does not get rescinded I'll build Todd a Northwest Custom Rod valued at $150 or less. If it does get rescinded then Todd buys me a Northwest Custom Rod valued at $150 or less. \:\) \:\)

Well what do you think Todd. You up for that? \:\)

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#241205 - 04/18/04 12:55 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Sparkey Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 1231
Loc: Western Washington
I think Todd has too much class to place a bet on the conservation of a fish he so dearly loves.
_________________________
Ryan S. Petzold
aka Sparkey and/or Special

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#241206 - 04/18/04 01:06 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Its all in good fun Sparky boy. \:\) It's not a bet on the conservation of the fish anyway. Its a fun little bet on which way the ruling will go. Todd's been saying for a long time now how legal it was, so it should be a sure thing for him.

I'll make you the same offer Sparky. \:\)

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#241207 - 04/18/04 01:08 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Sparkey Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 1231
Loc: Western Washington
Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Pearson:
I'll make you the same offer Sparky. \:\)
I guess I have too much class to bet on the conservation of a fish I so dearly love.
_________________________
Ryan S. Petzold
aka Sparkey and/or Special

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#241209 - 04/18/04 03:03 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
micropterus101 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 802
Loc: Port Orchard
Class? meanining, I am too good that that pety betting stuff? Thats for commoners?

I knew it, Its just the do gooder I am better than you syndrome comming out.

Whooo! Five whole rivers that had harvestable fish in them and helped support some peoples livelyhoods are now closed to "meatheads" Big whoop-d-doo. meanwhile we have 860,000 pinnepeds(compared to historic numbers around 80,000) and a gazillion commorants muchin on our precious fish and nobodies lifting a finger to do anything about that!

Get off your high horse ya didnt do anything to save our wild fish or even our hatchery ones for that matter. Just look at the other 156 rivers where catch and release has already been in place for 4 years or more. Wow look at all the fish return now, oh wait they havent been, and there not going to get any better runs till the wdfw pulls there head out of there arse and shows some leadership for a change.

BTB, the politicians are already talking about the economic ramifications of shutting down more fisheries, A trend that is picking up speed every year so maybe things will start happening now that will be benificial too the fish and our ego's.

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#241210 - 04/18/04 08:11 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
B-RUN STEELY Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 02/08/00
Posts: 3233
Loc: IDAHO
Cool !!! another WSR bash post. I wonder if we will learn anything new from this one ???
_________________________
Clearwater/Salmon Super Freak

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#241211 - 04/18/04 09:24 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is why I like the WSR ruling.

Just for the record both these hatchery fish were taken in March... along with these two hatchery brats that were bonked I released another native and a downriver fish.

It would be a damn shame if they recinded the rule... there's no reason at all to bonk a wild fish...


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#241212 - 04/18/04 09:32 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by B-RUN STEELY:
Cool !!! another WSR bash post. I wonder if we will learn anything new from this one ???
maybe we should talk about targeted catch and release seasons on runs that are barely meeting escapment ?

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#241213 - 04/18/04 09:38 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Gasp! No one here would ever do that Boater... Would they?

How about this.. Someone fishing a river such a the hump where all steelhead fishing closed, the river only being open to salmon. Nobody here would deliberately target those troubled runs of wild steelhead under the guise of fishing for salmon would they?

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#241214 - 04/18/04 09:40 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
Or we can talk about a catch-and-kill fishery that will place the escapment below the goal when a C&R fishery would allow it stay above \:\)
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241215 - 04/18/04 09:45 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob:
Or we can talk about a catch-and-kill fishery that will place the escapment below the goal when a C&R fishery would allow it stay above \:\)
If it is that bad then there should be NO fishing period! Not even you Bob. Why would you want to guide clients over runs of wild steelhead that may not be meeting escapement goals anyway?

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#241216 - 04/18/04 10:14 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
That's the exact point Bruce ...

But it would meet escapement if we weren't taking 500-1000 fish a year out of it through havest ;\)

The numbers would be just fine w/o the harvest.

Need I say more?
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241217 - 04/18/04 10:25 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
I don't feel that I should have to sacrifice my enjoyment of our sport so that you can have an extended guiding season. Especially considering that I know your impact on the resource is much greater than mine. Sorry Bob but thats how I see it.

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#241218 - 04/18/04 10:35 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
What about all those that aren't on my boat?

And you're calling the pro-WSR crowd selfish.
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241219 - 04/18/04 10:39 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
Oh and PS Bruce ... it's the CLIENTS that are FISHING. not me ;\)

They are fisherman just like you. As I recall, you've taken a trip with Jim Leons here and so have some of your relatives. I guess YOU didn't FISH then did you?
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241220 - 04/18/04 10:58 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
"As I recall, you've taken a trip with Jim Leons here and so have some of your relatives. I guess YOU didn't FISH then did you?"

Of course I did, but knowing what I know now (thanks to WSC) about how the wild fish runs on the OP are in such dire straights and that they are in a continued downward decline and at risk of being severaly depressed. I doubt that myself or any of my relatives will be fishing on those troubled runs of wild fish. I don't think that fishing for endangered runs of fish is very conservation minded.

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#241221 - 04/18/04 11:07 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Bob this is exactly why I feel that management should be on a river by river basis. Management that includes WSR/CNR/Harvest or whatever a particular system can support. Your saying that the hoh cannot support a sport fishing harvest? Maybe, maybe not, I'm no expert so I'll leave that call to the experts. Unfortunatly we've tied the hands of the experts with the recent statewide WSR ruling.

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#241222 - 04/18/04 11:40 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
:rolleyes:

And the broken record continues trying to spit endless dribble that has been adressed before.

Gonna be hard to spend your money like you said you planned to at those establishments if you're not going to come out and fish these depressed runs.

I give Bruce. You're right. Let's kill 'em all. I think next year I'll encourage everyone to kill every fish they can legally get on my boat ... and I'm gonna target the biggest bucks and cary a loop on the boat to check a hen's scales really quick to see if she's a repat so I can get more egs.

And now that I'll let people kill them, I'll expand our customer base so we'll get another boat or two going doing the same thing.

Thanks for showing me the light! \:\) I guess we need to discuss things any longer!
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241223 - 04/18/04 11:40 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
:rolleyes:

And the broken record continues trying to spit endless dribble that has been adressed before.

Gonna be hard to spend your money like you said you planned to at those establishments if you're not going to come out and fish these depressed runs.

I give Bruce. You're right. Let's kill 'em all. I think next year I'll encourage everyone to kill every fish they can legally get on my boat ... and I'm gonna target the biggest bucks and cary a loop on the boat to check a hen's scales really quick to see if she's a repat so I can get more egs.

And now that I'll let people kill them, I'll expand our customer base so we'll get another boat or two going doing the same thing.

Thanks for showing me the light! \:\) I guess we need to discuss things any longer!
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241224 - 04/18/04 11:58 PM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bruce Pearson Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 287
Loc: Auburn, WA USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob:

Gonna be hard to spend your money like you said you planned to at those establishments if you're not going to come out and fish these depressed runs.

Theres always salmon. \:\)

Quote:

I give Bruce. You're right. Let's kill 'em all. I think next year I'll encourage everyone to kill every fish they can legally get on my boat ... and I'm gonna target the biggest bucks and cary a loop on the boat to check a hen's scales really quick to see if she's a repat so I can get more egs.

And now that I'll let people kill them, I'll expand our customer base so we'll get another boat or two going doing the same thing.

Thanks for showing me the light! \:\) I guess we need to discuss things any longer!
Your welcome ;\) However, I know that you are a very good Angler Bob but I don't think that even you are that good. I'm sure you put your share of anglers on fish (LOTS OF FISH) but I really don't think that even you could kill them all. \:\)

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#241225 - 04/19/04 02:10 AM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
elkrun Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 759
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Bob-

Quick question, do you fish the upper Hoh? A friend of mine thats lived out this way all his life says that most of the guides out there are fishing above 101 and thats spawning water for the nates? He went into a lot of detail about boats marking redds and hitting them day in and out.... He suggested that perhaps a closure of that area would be the way to go? I really dont know since I dont fish out that way in the spring.... Is that a known spawning area for WS? Would that suggestion help fish?

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#241226 - 04/19/04 10:55 AM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6367
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
ER ... Here's a chart that I'll reference in the post:



For many years the "upper" Hoh was home water for me. "Upper" is a relative term as when measured in river miles, it's more like the middle section ... from the boat ramp at the National Park boundary to 101. There is a load of open water above that uppermost launch that is open to fishing, but usually limited to bank traffic only.

For a variety of reasons ... primarily number of fish to be found and changes to the river channel making it more / less conducive to the styles I like to fish, I've found myself fishing that piece of water less and less in recent years.

Your friend's statement that "most of the guides" fish up there is far from the case. From 101 / Oxbow (boundary has changed over th past few years) up, the river has been under selective fishery rules since 1998 I believe (a year either way ... they start to blend \:\) ) ... so without bait usage and no kill, most go elsewhere, especially now that the majority of "regular" guides all sidedrift eggs these days.

Yes, fish spawn there. But much of the run, especially later in the year ... also spawns below 101.

That's a common fallacy that has become popular belief amongst some anglers in recent years as selective regulations were emplaced on all the Forks-area streams in the latter part of the '90's.

On these short coastal streams ... it's ALL spawning water.

In fact, late in the season (now), most of the sapwning activity takes place in the lowermost reaches of all the rivers.

It's a natural part of fish runs ... the fish that have the furthest to travel to their natal grounds usually come into the river the earliest and vice versa.

Man has made the distinction between "upper" and "lower". As river miles go, what anglers refer to as the "upper Hoh" is the same as the Hatchery run in the Bogachiel or the lower Calawah or the lower middle portions of the Sol Duc. Because we have a highway that crosses these streams away from the coastline ... that's become our definition of "upper" and "lower".

I've never seen a sport boat marking a redd in any river, in any stretch. Bios often mark salmon beds in the upper Hoh with ribbons tied in trees above the bed ... but I can't say that I've seen that in steelie season. I have seen lots if it in the middle portion of the Sol Duc and the Calawah below the Forks.

I included the escapement graph above because I think the fact that we've made over 2/3 - 3/4 of the open river a selective fishery that we saw some immediate results in the late 90's of escapements getting just back over goal after several years in a row of not making the goal.

The upper river has always allowed for more angler days than the lower river due to visibility issues and by effectively reducing harvest levels by having no kill in those areas that were most frequently available to fish (not necessarily the heaviest fished ... as I said, most guides wish to run bait whether they're keeping or not). I believe this reduced area to harvest has been one of the only things that has kept the river from a complete collapse.

Yet, sport harvest has remained steady as we've seenthe pressure increase over the years on the heels of closures in other areas. Had the entire river remained open ... I think the Hoh would definitely be a fishery of memory at the moment. It's still headed down though, and thus the push to protect it before it's too late and numbers won't support any sort of a fishery.

Would closing the upper river be good for the fishery?

Sure it would, but it would help the run more if we eliminated harvest on the lower river. Remember that all intentional harvest takes place in the lower river and and even at 10% mortality (an extremely high rate for a selctive fishery), anglers in the upper river would have to catch 6000-10,000 fish to equal the impact that is currently in place by harvesting sports anglers in the lower river ... that's almost double the entire run size, in a section that's 2-3 times the amount of open water down below.

I'm a big proponent of opportunity. Long seasons, long stretches of open water. Sure the long seasons help me on the busieness end ... but lots of open water makes the fishery more enjoyable for everyone. In addition, I thionk it's important to spread our impact as much as possible because they DO spawn everywhere. Does a healthy run of fish mean that they all spawn in one area? No, of course it doesn't.

Mother Nature intended that fish spawn all up and down these rivers, and I think it's important that we try to keep it that way.

That's another pitfall of current management schemes ... the shorter the distance a fish has to spawn, the greater the repeat spawning percentage. Since it's well documented that repeat females are far more productive spawners that first time spawning females, if we're killing all the lower river spawners, you're going to see a decrease in the productivity of the escapement that you have.

Hope this answers your questions \:\)
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

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#241227 - 04/19/04 11:39 AM Re: Statewide WSR ruling ~ Rescinded?
stlhead Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 6732
It's all a moot point anyway. Since when has WDFW ever rescinded a ruling?
_________________________
"You learn more from losing than you do from winning." Lou Pinella

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