John Kerry has the most liberal voting record in congress, Edwards is 4th on the list. I can't tell GoHarley, are you just trying to pull someone's leg or do you really believe a clown like Kerry who can't even decide what color shirt to wear in the morning? Kerry is far to the left where the counter culture also dwells. The KKK and White Supremacist groups are far to the right, also counter culture. How can you group hard working business men like fishermen and loggers with scum like the KKK? That is completely ridiculous.

I don't really see the problem with clearcut logging, it obviously isn't problem with low returning fish, since we have had some of the best returns of all time in the last couple years. Not all the vegetation is taken out anyway in a clearcut, and a couple years later the new trees are well rooted. On the other hand devastating fire caused by decades of misuse of public forests does cause serious problems, all vegetation is completely stripped from the land and heavy winter rains cause serious runoff and erosion. You can't do selective thinning when roads are not allowed in a forest (nice going Slick Willy). A fire that goes through a well managed forest will be much less devastating. It's a pretty simple formula that even a liberal should understand...less fuel=less intense fire.

"How can you group hard working business men like fishermen and loggers with scum like the KKK?"

Easy....its just as silly as trying to group Kerry in with earth firsters, ELF and the like.....if you're silly enough to believe THAT kind of hyperbole then the kkk comparison should make perfect sense to you, unless of course you are wearing your 'rose colored glasses'.



Someone brought up the fact that it was the dems who built the dams....if I'm remembering my history correctly that's true. Keyword: History....the past. We can analyze it , Monday morning quarterback it and beat it to death but we aren't going to change the or influence the past.

What we CAN do something about is the future. We have to analyze the policies of the PRESENT candidates to determine what might be best for the country, more specifically in the context of this thread what's better for us as individuals when it comes to their industrial and environmental policies.

Again, for me its easy. When it comes to my personal outdoor policy I want to protect native steelhead in every way possible. I own all the guns I need to protect my property and hunt so restrictions on their purchase won't affect me. I'm not planning on overthrowing the government by force any time soon so I can't think of too many reasons why some restrictions on the sale of dangerous or easily modifiable firearms isn't reasonble.....

I wish those people who so ardently defend their constitutional rights when it comes to guns would also take a close look at the patriot act and object just as strenuously to having 'their constitutional rights stripped'.

I'm just starting to research the Bush vs. Kerry decision that I'll have to make in November, and one thing that has distressed me about Kerry's voting record (love the Vote Smart link above) is his record on animal rights issues. According to what I see, he's pretty much followed the party line of ASPCA and other, similar groups. I also did a quick search on the PETA website for Kerry, and that organization will be appearing at Kerry/Edwards rallies with characters in costume.

Of course, that doesn't mean that Kerry approves of PETA's stand or supports the group, but it appears that PETA is confident of a friendly reception.

With PETA's track record of protesting all kinds of "animal cruelty" including fishing, that linkage is worrisome.

I really would like to see Kerry's stand on major issues beyond campaign rhetoric, but he didn't reply to a series of requests for a statement, based on the Vote Smart website.

That makes me wonder.

Keith

Incredulous terminological inexactitude such as that will beget the same.

I can't tell if you truly suffer from credulous naivety or if you just play the part here.

"...I would would rather vote for some one who wants to manage the out doors for all the citizens "

So would I, but the options usually are one that either wants to manage it for profit, or one that wants to manage it for squirrels. There is no political middle ground, and clearly there is no middle ground for most of you posting.

Seems like there is a group of people out there that can't get past whether someone is nominally liberal or conservative long enough to think about the underlying ideas.

When the dams were built, largely during the time of democratic administrations, they were built to further economic prosperity, enable farms to grow and factories to be built. Sounds to me like a fairly reasonable set of objectives. While I regret their impact on fish, I like cheap power and what it has done for our region. If you want to tar the democrats with providing jobs and helping the region to build wealth, go ahead.

Kerry has a fairly liberal voting record, because, surprise, he comes from one of the most liberal states in the nation. One interpretation of that might be that he feels obligated to support the policies that his constituents want. Which is a sharp departure from Bush, whose stated style is to do what he thinks is right, regardless of what the US voter wants. There are pros and cons to either style. However, in the area of the environment, the vast majority of voters want clean water, clean air and a healthy environment. Kerry's style is more likely to support that goal than Bush's. For better or worse, Bush's record has been to roll back clean air and water protections, and to support partisan pressure on scientific opinions.

From my knothole, Bush's record thus far has shown that he and his team do a poor job of collecting hard data to support their opinions, and have often shown selective vision towards facts, using only those that support their position. This, plus their basic dishonesty (e.g., taking credit for recent salmon runs which spawned years before Bush was even thinking of running for president) would make me wary of him, even if I didn't think he was unintelligent, uninformed, and reckless.

Oops, now you know what I really think.

Excuse me for using something like his voting record to form my opinion. You obviously didn't explore the link I provided. Kerry is no friend of gun owners. Don't agree? Think I'm full of BS? Then prove me wrong.

Ya know what always puzzles me... The whole "democrats are going to take my guns" way of thinking.

Can anybody cite a law that has been passed in the last 50 years or so that ACTUALLY has taken guns away from, or even limited law-abiding citizens from legally obtaining hand guns?

Anybody... ?????

Cupo -

See Aunty's post. Kerry is a gun owner. How can he not be a friend to gun owners? Now if you're including those that use guns for criminal or terrorists acts, well then, yeah, I guess he's not a friend to them.

I did go to the site you posted and read every one of the bills he voted on. I still don't see what your concern is. His record seems to be requiring dealers to have a license and doing background checks on buyers; handguns sold with trigger locks; no assault weapons to juveniles; or large capacity ammunition clips for anyone. So what's the big deal? Where is that stopping you, or any law abiding citizen, from owning a gun? If the trigger locks, background checks, and large capacity clips stop one child's accidental death, a terrorist act, or a gun related domestic crime, isn't it worth it?

I can't see where a responsible gun owner would have a problem with those requirements.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goharley:

Conservatives are supported by groups like the KKK, White Supremesists, strip miners, commercial fisherman, and clear-cutters. They think democratic Americans exercising their First Amendment rights are "second class citizens who commit mortal sins."--goharley

------------------------------------------------------------

I'll exercise my First Amendment right by asking you a question goharley.


Isn't there something on the Lifetime Network you should be watching?

This comes down to another election where I'm forced to try and choose the lesser of evils. They both have limited upside in my opinion. Bush has had plenty of blunders, and there is nothing in the wind that looks like that will change. Flip Kerry, er, I mean John Kerry, reminds me greatly of the same crap that Willy spewed 12 years ago, followed by the lamest presidency I can recall (except Carter, he doesn't even qualify). Hard to believe in the semi modern, post Watergate era, there have been 5 presidents. 2 Dems and 3 Reps. Out of those, the only one I respect is now dead. I probably don't fall into the 24% that is undecided, but I will fully admit that I don't care for the guy I will be voting for. For me, it also comes down to prioritizing what is truely important in this life, and fish are not in the top few slots. Safety and prosperity for my family is, and one of the choices is better suited to make the hard decisions I think are ahead of our great country.

Yeah, what goharley said. If just one childs life is saved from an accidental shooting due do large capacity clips, then whats the problem? Tongue poking through cheek. The gun issue is my main hang up on Kerry. He will not actually say the second amendment is for individual rights. I would vote for him in a second if he would stand with the 2nd amendment as he does the others. Him shooting clay pigeons will not convince me. He wont touch the gun issue in depth, because he dosent want to alienate swing voters like myself, which may be his downfall if Iraq works out and the economy continues its upswing.

web page

Hes for "reasonable gun control" Like banning cop killer bullets? Like your hunting rounds? I like specificities when it comes to gun control measures. Why should i trust Kerry, a politician BTW?. We need tougher gun crime laws, not more regulation against law abiding citizens that criminals ignore. Use a gun in a crime, whammo its a mandatory ten years on top of the original charge. We could release small time drug users from our prisons to make more room.

The fact that he (Kerry) does not show his opinion on several key topics is what has me puzzled. He may have an optinion in his campaign speeches but when it comes to his voting record he leaves a lot of the real sensitive issues alone. I'm not real up on politics so can someone explain this? Maybe this is common for someone running for commander in chief, I'm not sure. If you are wondering what I am referring to just follow the Kerry link above and look at his voting record for the past 18 months or so.

Absolutely amazing how many responses over this topic. Why is it that more Americans vote to crown the next American Idol than for Presidency of the United States of America?

If someone would explain to me how any of the gun control measures voted for by Kerry negatively affect my ability to hunt this fall I'd have an ear for the logic.

Before we go any further I'd just like to put it on the record that any one who doesn't agree with 'wackos' is soft, effeminate and probably gay. You know...like Phil Donahue.

Any way we can move past this kind of stuff and just have a friendly conversation where we disagree but stop short of
calling each other gay or nazis??

Geez, the guy is legislating with personal responsibility in mind and the conservatives have a problem with that? I thought that's what the right was all about.

Racerdan - what are you really afraid of? What gun owning right have you lost in the last 15 years of legislation? The only thing Congress has even discussed are personal owner's responsibility issues. The only ban has been assault weapons, which in today's world of terrorist threats is pretty smart.

The conservative's gun control concern sounds more like a red herring everyday.

What happened guys...get tired of talking to each other on the politics board?

We missed ya and came lookin' for ya, Gandpa.

And now we found ya Grandpa, how's fishing been? Getting any work done?

Actually there is no assault weapons ban. You and i can go and buy an AK-47 or an AR-15 Mini 14 etc. as we speak. Its just the cosmetics(bayonet lug, oh, my) and the ten round clip, which you can buy high capacity clips under the pre-ban banner. Thats why we need kevlar vests to walk the park or go grocery shopping. The problem is, is there is no problem.