There is another post that has deteriorated into an argument over weather or not folks are flossing coho on the Snohomish. I hope to avoid all the heated debate. If you want to argue about that PLEASE go to the other thread. But I do know that Snohomish coho sure aren't the aggressive biters that coho can be in other rivers. Any ideas why?

This too has always baffled me. It seems to me wild coho are better biters and will move further to take an offering than hatchery coho. I wonder if Smalma may have some insights?

Someone once suggested, and it may have been SalmoG but I cannot remember, that the active or aggressive fish have all been caught over the decades and only the non biters are left to reproduce.

These fish do bite good when the water is on the drop and there is 1-3 feet of visibility. When the water becomes any clearer and goes off the drop they are a lot harder to catch from my experience.

Dave:

That's not the only river......The Chehalis system has some hatchery "non-biters". Fished today, many small silvers.......quite a few anglers in the area I was fishing........not a silver caught.........legally.

I carry 4 rods with me.....1 for eggs, 1 for spinners, 1 for plugs, and now 1 for Dick nite or small FST spoons. Used all and still no silvers........and I could stand and see them "on the move".......grrrrrrrrrr

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

Good question Dave, so I will take a guess. I have read or heard in the past that Puget Sound bound Salmon tend to run deeper because they have geneticly learned over time that going deeper helps them avoid the nets.

Perhaps the Snohomish Coho returning to this very urbanized area with lots of people fishing it have learned geneticly over time not to bite.

We have all read or heard those stories from many years ago when all one had to do was toss a chunk of herring into the Sound from the beach to catch a fish. It certainly has changed now.

It would be interesting to know if the Snohomish Coho of 30 or more years ago were as dificult to catch as they are today.

Any old old old barely able to sit up and take nourishment fishermen around to inform us young bucks :p

LT,

No, it wasn't me that suggested that, but I like it as kind of a humorous hypothosis.

I'm probably one of the least qualified people in the world to guesstimate, as I haven't done all that much salmon fishing. One major reason is that I concluded coho salmon in freshwater don't bite, for the most part. However, I've made a few observations. The best silver fishing I've had was always under prime water conditions, usually with the river dropping and clearing. Secondly, it seems the farther a silver is from tidewater, the less likely it is to bite. A friend of mine says that every day a silver is in the river, its probability of biting decreases.

Like a lot of fish, when they're on the snap, you can't keep them off. Unfortunately, they're usually not on the snap.

I used to live and fish on the Skagit, and I'd see upwards of 200 silvers in a pool this time of year. Then I'd cast over them for 4 or 5 hours, and on average, not hook even one. I think I caught one less than every other trip. So I swore off salmon for years because fly fishing was more fun and because sea run cutts and steelhead hit consistently if they're around.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I would imagine that the fish in the river have other things on their minds than biting a stupid spoon. After reading all the posts lately I wonder about all the beautiful fish I have seen pictures of . Hearing from so many fishermen about Coho in the Snohomish it sounded like a trout farm to me with nothing but aggressive biters. Now I guess I'm not sure.

As others have noted coho certainly are aggressive biters in some systems. I have watched coho come 25 feet for a spoon in some Alaska rivers and on the Alagnak this summer we sight fished coho with flies. Up there at least 70 of the fish we cast to came to our flies often very aggressively.

I think that the water is warmer than other rivers. I have noticed a better bite later in the season. I'd be curious what the water temp is currently.

I'm no salmon exspert, but I was schooled by alot of prehistoric old plunkers 20 or so years ago. As far as my local river system, the old guys always insisted in using eggs from the river your fishing. Last seasons or freshly cured that season. The reason, they would say. is the fish could smell the difference between the eggs of their river, and the eggs from other systems. Even if the eggs were cured the same, and fished the same way. Old guys would never buy eggs, if they did'nt have local hometown eggs, the would plunk with plain spinnig glows.
Now I don't know, and I'll be the first one to admitt I don't know, but thats the way they taught this pup...

Fishgutz,


I know this to be true, I have expirienced it on the green river (king co.) I fish with spinners, and corkies till I get a nice hen.......borax the eggs, add a little salt....nothing more....wham!!! I would like to add last year a guy down stream from my brother, and I was doing quite well.....as well as we were. It was the opener at highway 18, near the harchery. We talked to the guy after the day was over, amazingly we were using the same setup, and same exact scent...(mikes shrimp oil) We both outfished people along side us 5 to 1. I like shrimp scent!!

chumster

Dave and others -
While I'm certainly not an expert I have several observation about the willingness of coho to bite.

1) It is not a hatchery - wild issue - currently nearly 90% of the coho in the Snohomish are wild and as we all know they are among there worst biters in the Sound.

2) Just as clearly fishing pressure (harvest) makes a big difference. During the 1980s and early 1990s on those years that coho harvest was generally prohibited on the Skagit and Stillaguamish I found the coho were "pests" while cutthroat fishing. Yet within hours of an open season they became much more difficult.

3) It seems to me that coho return to the terminal areas and local rivers as more mature fish than decades ago. They have "shut down" their feeding making them much less agressive - this is often occurs well out in the Sound. While initially they are willing to "chase", follow or swipe at active lures or bait they seem to have lost interest in feeding. Have noticed that even out in the off-shore rips of the inner Sound that the fish often have to be tricked into taking. I can believe that this is a response to the intense harvest over the decades - those less agressive fish were more likely to escape the fisheries to spawn and those make more of these "timid" fish.

4) I feel that curiosity is a factor in tiggering a bite from heavily fished freshwater coho. In clear water the fish can see a typical lure at quite a distance and seem loss interest in it long before the path of the lure and fish cross. I think that is why often the best fishing is on a falling water with poor visibility - with only a foot or two of vis the fish takes the lure before it losses interest. That may explain why the more finesse lures (Dick Nites, small baits) work better than others in clear water. (an aside - I first saw Dick Nites on coho used 30 years ago on the Nooksack in quite turbid water).

It would also explain why odd ball approaches or a change up approach often produces while the tried and true doesn't.

I have also noticed that once several fish are taken from a pod they often shut down. Additional fish can sometimes be coax from the pod by changing to a different lure, color or retrieve. If there are not other anglers around resting the pod for time also often will allow another fish or two to be taken.

While the charge of a fresh coho to the fly is one of fishing most exciting momments the fishing over literally thousands of fish and being greeted by yawns and snubs is one of the most frustrating.

Tight lines
S malma

Hi All

1st let me say that my experience fishing some locally and on some OP rivers is that low-clear water and Coho are not a good mix. They tend to be more aggressive when they are 1st moving into the river and then once they are in there for a while, they go closed mouthed. Once the rains come and we get some color and the fish start moving, those same fish are more apt to bite. I've also witnessed on numerous occasions guys getting Solduc Coho early in the morning, releasing nice fish because they didn't want to quit and then once the sun is up, it just Turns-Off and they are kicking themselves for not keeping the fish they had caught.

One other theory to throw out there is where did thses hatchery fish come from. What river/race. I had a conversation with a Hatchery Manager a few years ago about why it seems like the Wind River fish that friends were getting were more aggressive then Solduc Hatchery Springers. He went into a 5 minute explanation that the Wind River fish came from X river and they were more aggressive and that the Solduc fish came from Y river (I can't remember the names) and they were known for not being an aggressive fish. Not sure how accurate this is but that is how it was explained to me.

WIth rains comming this week it is going to be interesting to see how everyone does on all these fish in the system. I bet the once the rivers color a little the posts are going to change

i was out at thomas eddy til almost dark today.... i just couldnt beleave my eye... they way they were jumping.... it was nuts...... like the hole school of them would jump at the same time....looked cool....
i was throwing dicknites an spinners...nothing to show for it..... did see one guy carry a nice one out as i was walking in... an i saw one fighting a buzzbomb that some snagged in his side......

I personally think it has something to do with the amount of rainfall you get weeks before the fish are actually due to show up , the years when we don't get alot of rain the fish don't tend to show up early and bite good in the sound and the rivers , on the other hand when we get alot of rainfall early the fish show up early , don't bite well at all even in salt water. I think they smell the rivers that they are headed for way out in the salt and puts them on the move with one thing on there mind The urge to spawn and they lose the desire to eat. Another reason could be that our fish have to travel so much farther to return to thier spawning grounds that by the time they make it here alot of them have reached a point where spawning is more important that stopping to have a bite, I also believe that the reason they hit dicknites is out of aggravation Kinda like when a fly gets in your face once or twice you'll let it buzz you about the third time you'll take a swat at it .

Good thread with some good ideas expressed. I think a lot of it has to do with the low, clear water that we typically see this time of year on the Snohomish system, which can include warm water temps. Then we get spooky, stale fish stacking up for extended periods with buzz bombs and 5/8oz spoons wizzing past them from dawn 'til dusk.

First & foremost let may say that I am no salmon expert. Having said that we know that Coho is called silver because they like to bite the things that are silver. Increasing the silverocity of your lure will increase the odds of catching silver under any condition. If the conditions under which you are fishing are not optimal, the silver in your lure will still increase however small chance you have. Nothing better than catching a silver silver which is the same as silver coho on a silver lure. If the conditions are optimal and anything is catching fish then using silver will help you catch more. In low light conditions, silver shines even more and it will increase your chances. There is no substitute for a real silver lure. Price of silver may go up tomorrow.

I am STIHLHEAD and I approve this hypothesis.
Further investigation required.
Your experience may vary.
Use at your own risk.
Do not allow children near silver lures or sharp objects.
Tetanus shots are recommended.
Not responsible for lost lures or dismal fishing conditions.

Awesome thread!

After reading in this thread (and others) about how aggressive the Coho from Alaska are, the only obvious solution is we get a few million eggs from one of those hot Alaskan rivers and do some serious genetic modifications of our fish here.

I fished the Skagit on Sat. with gvbest, and Sunday with my neighbor and a friend of his (from his friends sled). Nothing to show for it, and these were guys that know their poop about this river, both having fished it since childhood.

So, my question is: BOB, JOHNNY COHO, (or ?????) if we buy the coolers and gear for it, would you kindly bring us back a few billion eggs (ok, a few million then) from one of these hot Alaskan fisheries?

Another thought: If scientists can genetically engineer animals to grow all sorts of weird ways (featherless chickens, cross-breed blue and pink dogs, etc.) then how about we hire one of these Dr. Moreau types that will take an aggressive Coho strain, and genetically engineer us a rude, surly, hard-biting bast$#d that will hit in fresh water and grow to 25 lbs. on average? Strictly a hatchery fish, mind you, and probably like the Triploid fish, unable to reproduce. (We could call them STEELHO's.. )

T'wood be cool to hook into some super-Coho and have to chase it up and down the river..

Mike

p.s. Been listening for fish rolling this morning...not a peep out on that river. In this quiet morning time and having the Baker shut down right now, (I've been up since 4) it is possible to hear a fish jumping/rolling from 100 yds. in either direction (up or downriver). I haven't heard a roll or jump yet. I'm still going out at 6:30 to give them a try......just gotta be at least one fish out there!!

Can anyone be really surprised that we have selectively removed the aggressive fish (biters) from the population.

We fish hard on the maturing coho for months in the ocean (Washington coast, off Vancouver Island, Neah Bay etc.), we then pound them for a month or so as they return to Puget Sound, and then another 6 weeks or so in the rivers. The results is for many decades we have consistently removed 40 to 80% of the biters from the wild populations annually (even higher exploitation rates on many hatchery stocks).

It should also be apparent that aggressive feeding is a real plus for a maturing coho - grows faster, larger which means it will likely be more successful. If we as anglers wish to have better biters we need to rstrict our harvest. Think about it for a second. The same with the concern for small fish - how many of our successful anglers (in the salt or river) on those fun multiple fish days release the smaller fish to select for larger fish - if we keep all the teenage size fish we catch how can be surprised that there are larger fish.

Mike - hope your suggestions are t.i.c.

Tight lines
S malma

I'm not trying to be facetious here. But, maybe they are already full? I know some parts of the sound are loaded with bait right now. Are their bellies packed when you open them up? It seems to me that a fish with a full gut entering fresh water would get lock-jaw.

But then, that raises the question of fish hunger. Are they more inclined to bite when their bellies are empty or when some mysterious instinct triggers a feeding reflex? I'm sure everyone here has caught plenty of fish that were so jam-packed with bait that it was stuck in their throat cuz there was no room for it to go down......go figure.

:D Firmly planted.

"The results is for many decades we have consistently removed 40 to 80% of the biters from the wild populations annually (even higher exploitation rates on many hatchery stocks)."

Would this then not be true for all systems? Why do they bite in the Columbia and many Ak or BC rivers? they are fished and netted hard in those areas as well.

Smalma is right on on this one.

Its artificial (not darwin's natural )selection at work. If you want hatchery fish that are aggressive in the rivers, have the hatchery workers collect their brood stock by fishing the hatchery holding ponds with spinnners, etc. Only the biters would get to spawn. This might help counteract angling harvest to some extent.

Slabquest, I don't think they're full of food. I mostly fish area 10 and my boat has not bonked a silver with anything in its stomach since the last week of august. They just quit eating this by the beginning of september.

The genetic "unnatural selection" of the aggressive fish seems to make the most sense. In the mid-west, this has been documented with walleye; there are known stocks that don't bite aggressively and others that do. These aggressive and non-aggressive stocks have even been isolated in hatcheries. The average smaller size of Puget Sound coho compared to coastal and Columbia stocks may also be influenced by the heavy historical commercial fisheries in the sound (only the smaller ones got through the mesh). More unnatural selection influenced by fishing.

One other contributor that hasn't been mentioned so far though I think is flow (velocity, not water volume). In my experience, the faster the water velocity you have in a stream, the more likely the fish are to be on the aggressive side. In the Snoho, most of the drifts are large deep glides which move rather slow, compared to the riffle/pools you find farther upstream in the tribs. Likely related to the visibility thing--if the fish sees it coming from afar, it seems to lose interest, whereas if the presentation drifts through the fishes visual area pretty rapidly due to increased flows, the fish is more likely to grab. I've had much better luck fishing higher gradient streams like the Vedder and Sky for coho.

Bringing AK coho down here is a bad idea; these fish are genetically adapted to the cooler climes of more northern lattitudes. Most notably, these fish migrate upstream and spawn much earlier than our fish; down here they would migrate to spawning tributaries in the middle of summer when there is little water and non-optimal temperatures. We futz with the genetics of these fish enough just by fishing for them!

Did you guys miss the part in Smalma's post where he said over 90% of Snohomish coho are wild? IMHO, that kinda shoots down the hatchery theory.

Sure wish I knew the answer...

Great subject, Dave. Unfortunately the coho ain't talkin'. We'll never know why they can be hard to hook. I think that is a good thing as that is why we always come back for more abuse. Ain't called catchin', its called fishin', yada, yada, yada. Its a good thing.

I most respectfully wish to thank Bob for providing this great site. The information here is priceless. THANK YOU!

STIHLHEAD- agree with your hypothesis. Your quote, "Price of silver may go up tomarrow."

silver spot 13:01 EDT, 7.05, +0.36.

"Come to papa,...,baby needs new shoes."

A friend that fished the Snoho last Thursday eve said that fish were jumping everywhere, and, as you say, not biting.

Over the years, I have noticed a lot of truth to the old adage "when you can see fish, you won't catch fish". Is that related to this non-biting question? Are the fish jumping a lot in these other rivers where they bite good?

This whole thing is just too complicated. I get a little dizzy just thinking about it.

I agree with obsessed and the higher flows causing better biters. 2 weeks ago with the higher flows in the Snohomish we hooked several fish by anchoring obove the fish and casting dnites over the fish and retreiving them up stream past them. These fish were aggressive and would hit the dnites as it passed them.

I forgot to mention that the same technique did not work a week later with the lower flows.

Hi

SlabQuest: I think the jumping/rolling fish saying is an old wives tale. When I fish the OP rivers I move from spot to spot looking for jumping/rolling fish. I can't count the number of times I've seen fish jump, role or porpose and have gotten fish. A lot depends on what the river is doing and how long those fish have been in the system. A few years ago I was fishing a hole with a friend from back east. We had fished the hole the day before and got nothing (river was up and fish were moving but hadn't made it up that far). The next day we went back to the hole. He got excited when he saw a few dark Kings (we'd seen them the day before) role. About the same time I saw some fresh Coho Porpose/moving. We spent the next 2 days in the hole banging on fresh Coho. And almost every time fresh/moving fish moved in the hole they rolled, porposed etc and one of us would get a least a strike.

As for the river flows, I think that affects the aggressiveness of the fish more than anything else. Even fish that have been in the system for a while seem to become more aggressive when the water is up and they are moving etc. There is a hole on the Solduc that stacks with fish in lower water. People will fish it early/late in the day and get maybe a few. But those middle hours are usually a waste of time. Get the river up with some color and the hole will produce throughout the day.

Just a few things I've noticed over the years.

Let the RAINS BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The theory on the farther the fish get from the salt, the worse biters they become doesn't seem to hold much water. You get guys who are skunked in the estuaries and lower rivers while fish are jumping all around. As evident in this thread, the guys fishing the snohomish - not considered far from the salt by most standards - are having a hard time finding biters.

Anyway, I catch silvers up high on the snoqualmie, green, sky that are very aggressive - even after turning red. Sometimes I think the closer they get to the spawning beds, the more territorial they get - and strike out of aggression. Anyway- all that just to say I think it has more to do with river conditions than it does distance from salt.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the concept of 'taking water'. Take any pool or run with salmon\steelhead in it, and there will be places that certain techniques will produce better than others. There may even be places where the fish just won't bite - while a little ways away, the fish are very aggressive. Many times it boils down to finding the biting fish - instead of just casting all day to fish that just aren't interested.

silver market is closed, and what a day it was.

FWIW- I haven't a clue about Wa. rivers and coho, but after fishing the St. Joe R. in Michigan for 25 years I can humbly report that they virtually never hit. During my earlier fishing years which happened to coincide with some of the best andronomous fish returns ever, I often took days off from work to fish. (I know, I know, how irresponsible,...didn't regret it then and I certainly don't regret it now) At that time I knew the person responsible for counting the cohos passing the ladder at Berrien Springs (first dam from Lake Michigan). During the peak years (15 years ago) it was not uncommon to have 400 fish pass the ladder during 24 hours. For all practical purposes, the casual angler not familiar with historical planting data, predicting future returns or even taking the time to observe fish passing the ladder didn't have a clue. I did, and it was of no help. I tried everything from natal green spawn to spinners. Nothing worked; my only rewards were hooking up with some early steelhead, graciously recieved.

As I stated in my above post, I don't know why and quite frankly, I don't want to know why. If fishing for salmon and steelhead ever becomes an equation, balanced with alpha and beta, hedged with dirivatives, give me my Ugly Stick and I'll just go fishing for surf perch.

Best regards to the board.

It's as sure as a bear craps in the woods that coho bite more aggressively on water dropping into shape after running high and dirty. It's also a fact that three days later when the water is low and clear, the same fish will be spooky and finicky.

I gave up trying to figure out silvers a long time ago. They're just wired different. I've fished days on the Chehalis when they'd be jumping around biting nothing and driving you nuts, and then for no apparent reason (no tide change) just fire off on anything you'd throw only to go lockjaw again later in the day.

They're freaks. Because of that, sometimes it helps to throw freaky things like little tiny DN's or a hoochie on a jig head, or a Slug-Go worm, or who knows, it will sometimes get you a fish when nobody else is hitting paydirt.


Stupid fish.

santiago,
Had everyone listened to me, they could be retired and on the river researching why fish don't bite at times. Buy low sell high its very simple :rolleyes:

Dan S, You hit the nail on the head.

Ty

Dan S, your post pretty much sums it up. Silvers can certainly drive a guy to drinken before noon. BURP, BELCH...URG!!!
Ty

STIHLHEAD, message well recieved. Some things never change, and that is a good thing.

At the risk of being booted off this neat site, picked up some 1964 quarters at 4x's face at a country auction last Saturday. Couldn't touch the dimes as they went for 6x's. Halves sold for 8x's. Asked the "successfull" bidders if they wanted more as I have a large inventory of both dimes and halves and I will happily sell at a discount to that they just paid. No takers, unfortunately. The new owners actually looked a little dumbfounded.

Best purchase of the day was buying $38.50 face of bicentenial quarters and halves for $33.00. Apparently, I was the only one who actually took the time to count the damn things. I wonder how the auctioneer is going to explain that sale to his client. $5 paid for my gas.

Well, I am off-topic now, might as well insure getting the"boot". This is important. The auction I attended was in S.W. Michigan. The owner was a small time machine shop. By the time clock on the wall I am sure he was a small time employer. No bids on the lathes and drill-presses. Auctioneer refused to accept ridiculously low bids. Personally,knowing the auctioneer for many years, I ask what is the deal on the machinery. He tells me they have a buyer of last resort. Further inquiry reveals "the buyer of last resort" resides in China. Doesn't surprise me.

To keep this post on topic, I don't have a clue why silvers can be so hard to catch. All I know is that I will continue to try. I love to fish and some of my most memorable occasions have not resulted in killing a fish. Standing in a river, up to my knees, hoping to hook a fish, purges my demented mind of all the noise going on in the world today. Best decisions are made with an uncluttered mind, made a few recently.

Thank you for the reply, STIHLHEAD.

I read an article on fishing Puget Sound that was written in 1929, and it mentioned that the Coho were only 2-3 pounds when they reached Whidbey, and then much more by the time they hit elliot bay, etc.

Interesting thread. Come to think of it, none of the fish I've landed have had much of anything in their stomachs this year, but all have been larger than in years past!