I've watched this subject being "debated" on various BB's for a little while now. Of all the posts pro and con, I think this one sums up my position better than any other.

I hope Crabbait from the ifish board doesn't mind me posting it here.

Originally posted by Crabbait:

Some things don't deserve a vote because having the majority does not make them right. If a majority decided that it is alright to own people would that make it right?

Call it a civil union if it makes you feel better. People deserve the right to visit their partners in the hospital (as "family"). They deserve the order of law when dividing jointly purchased belongings. They deserve to inherit property in the event of a partner's death (like any other spouse).

One of the best things about America is that it protects its citizens from the religion of some of its citizens. It is called "freedom". We have the right to practice any religion. We do not have the right to force the rule of that religion into the rule of law. Otherwise we would have a "Mulah" or an "Ayotollah" instead of a President.

Allowing two unrelated people to join in a lawful union does not open the door to the union of people and animals, or of related people, or of people and other minor people, or of people an inanimate objects. Feverish, high pitched, oft repeated orations do not change this fact.

Regardless of strongly held belief, there is no such thing as "choice of sexual preference". We are attracted to who we are attracted to and no amount of "choice" is going to change that. Men who are attracted to men and women who are attracted to women are as repulsed by the thought of being with a member of the opposite sex as hetrosexuals are of being with someone of the same sex. We did not get to choose, and our children will not get to choose, so be ready for that. Hatred and intolerance simply demonstrate our ignorance of biological fact that can be proved in any highschool biology class.

As for children being "exposed" to this, the sooner the better. It is very healthy for them to know that not all people are the same and that who they partner with is only a small part of who they are as people. The sooner that they know that people can believe differently, live differently, look differently and still be perfectly good people the fewer wars we may have to fight for no good reason in the future.

They are here. They are different. They deserve to be here and deserve the same protection under the law. If this illicits a strong emotional reaction I suggest that you think about it more and feel about it less.

I can pretty much go along with the first 4 paragraphs (although with a different interpretation of the 1st paragraph), but after that…

The age-old debate of “genes vs. environment” is what mainly gave birth to the behavioral sciences. Are newborns a “blank slate” to become a product of what they hear, see & feel or is all their behavior completely predestined? If you are in either of these camps (like Crabbait) you are in a tiny minority. Most behavioral scientists believe that we are a combination of both. Most also feel that few (if any) humans are 100% masculine or feminine.

Let’s say that homosexuality was the norm -- 90% of the population was gay. If you honestly think that kids raised in an environment where homosexuality was encouraged were not more likely to turn out gay, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn that you may be interested in buying.

I guess I am going to have to go over to ifish and straighten those guys out…

There is NO LAW which isn't open to legal interpretation. Why do you think we have appeals courts, circuit courts, and the Supreme Court?

That being said, I agree that skirting a law that is on the books already is shady politics. Change the law first.

IMO, when it comes to higher cognitive function such as language, self-awareness and a sense of right and wrong, I firmly believe more in "nurture" (good parenting) over "nature".

Sexual drive however is a function of the more primitive part of the brain, instinctual if you will. How old were you Slab when you first discovered that looking at girls gave you a funny, nervous, awkward feeling inside? Did you feel you were in control of theses feelings, or did they just sorta' happen?

Are you telling me that you learned to like girls from watching your parents, older siblings, or neighbors across the street?

I bet if you thought about it for a minute, you'd realize that the crush you had on Mary Anne in the 5th grade probably would have happened regardless whether you were raised by Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve.

Mary Ann was a little hottie, but Billy Boy didn't do much for me. Maybe it was the mustache...

doug,

We all do have equal protection under the law. You have just as much right as I do to marry a woman!

Talk about a stretch. geesh....where does it end?

As far health issues not being a factor your wrong! homo sex is responsible for the rapid spread of AIDS.

The founders of this Country were christians and I seriously doubt they would have anything to do with legaly recognizing gay sex partners. I can see healthcare taking a big big hit with all the new coverage for aids carriers.

Micro

Actually the founding fathers were Deists.

"A Deist is one who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason."

Also IMO religious beliefs should have nothing to do with legal rights.

You don't think those same people have health coverage now…..

Oh boy this is going to get complicated.

our founding fathers were christian though they based most law as "deist" so they were not establishing any religon when the constitution was drafted.

And yes I believe there are many homos out there dying from aids with no coverage.

Aunty we dont have to come up with solutions. there is no compromise! Butt piracy just aint right and is not lagally sanctioned by the government. If homos dont like it they can get the F*** out!

I am digusted and putrified by them. Its in our schools, on are tvs, and in the news .

I for one will never be desensitized to that extreme form of immorallity!

Micro

I feel sorry for you that you cannot see it in your heart to allow others to be themselves.

Hating a gay person for being gay is no different then hating a black man for being black.

Now this is not a personal attack it is just to prove a point. What if I said I was tired of guys wearing camo coats holding bass.

Should I be able to tell him to get the F-out as you would say?

While I was out of town I watched the Bill Maher show even though I view him as a pompous know it all kind of guy....he said the following:

" A guy better not put anything in another guy unless it is a bullit."

Kids are like pets in some respect. They do imitate things in their immediate environment. If a new baby was watching
Adam and Steve kiss and all the other trappings of being "gay" that child will grow up thinking it is the norm. I will do whatever I can to help shield my grandson from the sick behavior I believe to be harmful to him in the long run. Being gay is not normal in my opinion and all the secular brain washing being forced down our throats by the tiny vocal minority in this country won't change my mind.

And by the way...tell a black person about the comparison made here about gay marriage and blacks. The huge majority of blacks are against gay marriage. They realize that a stable home with a father and a mother is what is going to save their crumbling families. They have the alarming statistics to prove it. Being tolerant of gay marriage is not the same as being tolerant of other races.

What this is all about is attaching legitimacy to abhorant behavior. Gays always seem to flaunt their gayness which I interpret as crying out for accdeptance in a society that is over 90% against their lifestyle.

For those of you who think others are over reacting on this topic - I'd just like to point out a bigger picture. Those behind this would like us to have warm fuzzies about their intentions and agenda and compare it to a civil rights issue that we should all support. I must admit it is tempting logic. But to those who doubt there really is a bigger agenda at work, her is just another example of a bigger, and more dangerous angle that is being worked. The target - our kids

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Hurricane GLSEN
Marc Fey (back to web version) | Send

September 28, 2003
About the time Hurricane Isabel reached landfall on Thursday, September 18, 2003, a group of activists, educators, and junior high and senior high school students gathered in Washington, D.C. for the annual GLSEN (Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network) National Conference. Like the havoc that Isabel wrought on communities in North Carolina, GLSEN threatens to produce far greater
What I witnessed during these brief 72 hours left me with the conviction that GLSEN is a cultural hurricane that’s hitting our schools with the kind of force and devastation that may take years to fully assess. Let me try to paint the picture.

GLSEN is a self-styled pro-gay education network targeting our kids in public schools.
The danger is in how they seek to accomplish this mission. In effect, GLSEN’s objective is to cut out parents and adult leaders in the child’s life who don’t a gree with the LGBT agenda. Every speaker at the national conference made this message very clear.

On Friday night founder and co-director Kevin Jennings defiantly declared, “Neither rain, nor wind, not even a hurricane will stop us from bringing justice to our schools!”

A clinic earlier that day was entitled “Strategies for Responding to Homophobic Bigotry: Everybody’s Business!” The title accurately set forth this point in their agenda-- to make the GLBT agenda everyone’s agenda, yours and mine included. And the strategy is to get to our kids.

It’s not just that they are generously funded, though they certainly are. Revenues for 2001 were $3.35 million, and this year’s conference was liberally supported by Kodak, Levi Strauss, Microsoft, and IBM whose logos were emblazoned on banners, brochures, and conference freebies. For the close to 500 people in attendance, including about 100 junior high and senior high students, the companies hoped to capture this powerful purchasing sector—gays and youth—arguably two of the most powerful buying sectors in America today.

No, GLSEN’s success comes from a carefully planned message that homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgender identity issues represent the next human rights and civil rights battle, on par with Martin Luther King, Jr and other reformers great work of the last 200 years. Again, this message is targeted at our kids. Today, GLSEN sponsors about 1700 campus student clubs, called GSA’s (Gay Straight Alliances) promoting LGBT issues. Click link for more.

Hurricane GLSEN article

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More info taken from another site and reposted here:

What is GLSEN Hiding?
Coalition Calls on Homosexual Education Group to Make Its Sessions Available to Public

WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Culture & Family Institute, an affiliate of Concerned Women for America, and 11 other pro-family groups today called on a homosexual education group to make a record of its annual conference available to the public — including tapes of all sessions — so that parents can learn what pro-“gay” school programs are being promoted in the name of tolerance.
“If GLSEN [Gay, Lesbian, Straight Education Network] has nothing to hide, then make it easy for parents to find out what’s going on at these conferences,” LaBarbera said. “We know that GLSEN is not honest with students about the serious health risks associated specifically with homosexual behavior.”
“GLSEN is now recognized by several major school districts and state education systems as an ‘official’ consulting group on homosexuality-related issues. Yet most parents and education professionals have no idea of the harmful agendas advanced by this organization,” said CFI senior policy analyst Peter LaBarbera.
GLSEN is holding its annual conference in Los Angeles October 4-6. Among the scheduled sessions are:
“Mobilizing Young Same Gender Loving Men”;
“Responding Effectively to the Right Wing” — an all-day session led by staffers with Political Research Associates, a leftist group that specializes in providing misleading propaganda about conservatives to the media;
“Transgender Mind, Body, Spirit” — an all-day session. GLSEN celebrates cross-dressing and distributes classroom materials such as “Jesse’s Dream Skirt” and “In Mommy’s High Heels” to elementary-age boys.
“Using Music to Deconstruct the Heterosexist Meaning of Family”;
Keynote speaker Brian Graden of MTV — MTV is a leader in glamorizing homosexual behavior to young people through programs such as Undressed and The Real World.
Joining Concerned Women for America and CFI in calling on GLSEN to make tapes of all its sessions available are the following pro-family groups representing millions of Americans: Focus on the Family; American Family Association; Toward Tradition; Traditional Values Coalition; Citizens for Community Values; Parents Rights Coalition; Mission:America; Family Policy Network; Christian Civic League of Maine; Pro-Family Law Center; and Campaign for California Families.

http://www.lafalce.com/library/family/2002-10-03_pr_hs-in-schools.shtml

Perhaps some of you going into battle with this glsen group should make contact with some of these outside groups who are also fighting glsen.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_2_queering_the_schools.html
Very interesting article.

http://www.missionamerica.com/stoppflag1.php
Seem to be several groups trying to stop glsen.

http://www.georgiaeagle.org/index.php?where=insight&ID=76
Article on the NEA and GLSEN

http://www.narth.com/docs/glsen.html
Another one

http://www.mfc.org/
Minnesota Family Council

http://www.ccv.org/images/GLSEN_Corruption_Crime.PDF
Excellent article. In PDF format.

http://www.usiap.org/Viewpoints/Zgen/NEAAndGLSENSeekToStifleFreeSpeech.html
Good Article

GLSEN (pronounce "Glisten") is moving fast and strong on WA state and many others. They often find a willing team with our school district and leaders. When they don't, they are ready with threats to sue for harrassment and hate crimes (whether the particular shcool has issues in that area or not).

GLSEN, Planned Parent Hood, NEA, and other big organizations have a strategy that invovles 'sexualizing' our young children. Not just accepting or tolerating the gay lifecycle, but exploring it at a young age.

Planned Parent Hood has a website dedicated to kids called "teanwire". In it they tell our kids how common and normal gay sex is and how it is OK to experimnet with it. They offer in depth detail about ANAL STIMULATION and how it is OK for both gay and straight kids to explore it and how common it is.... Nuff said...

PhishPhreak -

You missed a couple of links to help in the fight:

Local Support

Another Christian Organization

Christian FAQs

goharley, very well done

Nice try....

You can laugh if off all you want. Doesn't mean it isn't true or not happening.

I get the impression a few of you are all too familiar with the 'ins and outs' of anal sex. But I'll kick anyones ass who tries to explain in great detail how enjoyable anal sex is and that exploring and accepting it is just part of being a tolerant and accepting person....

Here is a recent article you may find interesting.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewEducation.asp?Page=\Education\archive\EDU20000504a.html

GLSEN is very active in this state and is pushing our local schools to teach their propganda.

PhishPhreak,

How do you feel about lesbian sex where anal doesn't come into play?

Recording someone's voice without their consent or knowledge is against the law.

Education and information is a good thing. There are some here that are quite indicative of a lack of education resources pertaining to human sexuality. Like knowing the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

And there are some here that are so arrogantly conceited they automatically assume a gay person will find them attractive.

Those same people may need to stop and realize that in the grand scheme of things, God may very well find those two loving individuals in a committed relationship much more in favor than someone who hates them simply for their committment. And while you're thumping your bible, take the time to actually read it and notice the number of references to love, forgiveness, tolerance, and nonjudgment compared to those of persecution and hate.

LOL - bible thumping? I haven't even brought that into this. I have gay friends. I don't hate anyone for being gay. Nice attempt to derail the topic. The old "you religious bigit" red herring just won't cut it. The posts I made earlier were taken from another board and I did not read all the links yet. So what if there was a religious spin on many of them. That does not change the fact of what is happening accross our country - to our schools and in our government.

Sex education is good. I have no issue with it. But it needs to be done by trained experts and at age appropriate levels, and in a way that parents are comfortable with. That is my issue here. I'm not gay bashing or afraid that they may flirt with me or try to recruit me. That is just twisted attempts to avoid the subject matter...

As far as the religious\Christian aspect of it. You are pretty close. But if you look closer, 'tolerance' is not always the same as love and acceptance. For example, I love my kids. But if and when they do something very wrong, I don't just tolerate it, I correct them or even disipline them.

Again, my stance is that it is fine for people to be gay. I'm not trying to change them, and I don't want them trying to change me. I have no issue with what they do as long as they don't try to force it on me, my family, my community, my country.

But back on topc.....

Here is an article worth checking out specifically related to gay marriage:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20040309.shtml