I say no....a belief backed up by even the most conservative interpreters of the Constitution.

...but the conservative right continually brings up matters of religious faith as part of its political platform.

Why do you think that is?

You don't think that its the only way the right can hold onto voters who are obviously negatively affected by its economic policies do you? Why else do you think an booze guzzlin', cocaine snortin, frat boy might find Jesus shortly before a run at the presidency....

I agree h2o!...even though I was also known to guzzle a bit o' booze and snort a little booger sugar from time to time...

Never belonged to a Fraternity though.

PETA may be a PITA but I don't pay much mind to them. Until one of those SOBs spray paint one of my wife's furs, then I'll have the ass.

The extreme left that bothers me right now is that ELF group. Those guys are whacked. Burning down new homes is lunacy.

And the irony of some guy burning down a house thereby causing toxic pollution then running back to his own home in a once-wooded-lot-turned-development all in the name of the enviroment is sublime.

I am not sure where I see the stereotype?

We have a nation of faith in terms of the huge majority of our people who say they are religious to a degree or actively practice religion..Does that make a national religion? no...Does it mean that a small minority of folks should disparage relgion and defile anyone who bleieves in God...? Not in my book but obviously a few believe it is their duty to save humanity from God or religion..or maybe they feel compelled to force the rest of us into their secular world. who knows?>

Anyone see Frontline last night? I'm pretty sure it was a repeat but it was about GW and Evangelical Christians. GW, being an Evangelical Christian, purposely targeted their vote as it was discovered if they could get near 100% of that vote no other religious vote mattered due to the always small voter turn out. Since in office he has set about everything on their wish list. His faith based initiative is buried in seven departments of government as we speak. Only one department produces anything measurable about where and who the money is going to. 100% conservative christian groups. Zero to any other faith based group....your tax dollars. An evangelical christian believes the bible is the exact word of god and is to be taken literally word for word. He has tossed out verses from the bible repeatedly in his speeches and policy decisions. This is what scares the rest of the world.

No stlhead....It scares guys like you.

Funny thing i noticed the other day. The right has been all over Kerry for his anti war stuff and throing his medals and all that but when we bring up GW's actual crime of driving while drunk they say "ohh thatsh ancient history and not applicable"

What a crock.. Politics is disgusting, they are all corrupt.. why don't some of the good people of this board run for public office??? That is the solution you know.. good people running the country. what a novel concept..

Yes America has a national faith.. it's moto is, "not out of my wallet"

I believe if you took a nationwide look at what churches and other places of worship exist you would find 95%(+/-) of them to be of a Christian nature.

Now, that said, there are a jillion different varieties of "Christian" churches out there with doctrines from "soup to nuts", but they are noted as Christian faith churches.

As a whole, I would guess that 80%+ of American believe in "God". We are a nation of faith...different varieties, true, but a Nation of Faith we are.

I do not believe (strongly) that any one belief should have political strength over another. We have a Constitutional right to believe as we wish, but never to use that belief as political power over another.

Mike

MIke...good points..I think what is going on here is that people like H2O and Stlhead and Rob and Harley see freedom of religion and separation between church and state as a license to try to take religion away from everyone else. They hate the idea of religion and think anyone who has faith (except Muslims of course) is an extreme right wing fanantic. We have allowed the courts in this country to pander to this small minority of zealots in the name of church and state separation.

Are the 85% the crazy ones or are the 15%?

George Washington, who said, “In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own; nor of my fellow-citizens at large, less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts affairs of men more than the people of the United States.”

Or Abraham Lincoln, who acknowledged, “I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for that day.”

Or Grover Cleveland, who said, “Above all, I know there is a Supreme Being who rules the affairs of men and whose goodness and mercy have always followed the American people, and I know He will not turn from us now if we humbly and reverently seek His powerful aid.”

Or Dwight Eisenhower, who professed, “Without God there could be no American form of government nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first – the most basic – expression of Americanism.”

GP, where do you get a notion like that of me? I'm raised Catholic with 8 years of parochial school (which partly explains my perverted ways ). I am a firm believer in God and fear his retribution for my personal acts.

However, those are my beliefs and they are very personal. In fact I feel that one's faith and belief in a higher power should be of the very most personal nature.

I will never attempt to force my beliefs onto anyone else, and I find it the worst of personal offenses when someone tries to force theirs on me. For example, trying to pigeonhole me into a stereotype simply because I oppose the current administration's tactics against terrorism that seem to be derived from an evangelical rationale.

I have my beliefs, my religion, and I am very close to - and at peace - with God. Don't try to slander me just because I don't goose-step to your ultra-conservative black-and-white view of humanity. There's an awfully big world out there and it doesn't revolve around the GOP.

GP, I was raised Lutheran and I see the issue the exact opposite you do....go figure. Instead of freedom of religion and freedom from religion I see a party who has been highjacked by the extreme religious right and is trying to shove their religious beliefs and ideals down the throats of all Americans. They twist the 1st amendment to claim they are being oppressed by seperation of church and state. Anti freedom zealots.

Grandpa.


I see religious freedom as a vehicle to Believe the bible. Even where is says things I don't like. For instance where is says that for a rich man to enter heaven is as hard as getting a camel through the eye of a needle , which of course is impossible. The thing we are to learn from that being that it is impossible for a rich man to go to heaven.

Or where the bible tells us that narrow is the path but few find it. Leading us to believe that very few people will go to heaven.

Or where the bible teaches us that sin separates us from God in such a way that we cannot cross over too him.
In short i use my freedom to believe that salvation from damnation is utterly impossible by human effort. Because after all thats exactly what the bible teaches.

That being the case it's easy to say that most people in America even thoes who claim to be of faith are in fact not. Thus leaving America without a national faith other than worshiping gods of our own creation.

even with my religious views being what they are and believeing all others to be false I choose not to try and push my views on anyone and have no desire to make people believe what i believe.
Some people may do things that I think are stupid or even evil and i may say something about that but i also understand that that is the condition of us all. So who am i to judge?

Pmartin excellent quotes and this one points out what i am trying to say.

"..........I know He will not turn from us now if we humbly and reverently seek His powerful aid.”
I agree 100% but would also see that the vast majority of Americans do not do that and we are in my opinion starting to see God turn from our nation on account of our lack of faith.

Did you notice the past tense referances , " Iwas raised" I am Raised". You can not in any way shape or form support abortion and consider yourself Christian. Voting for a liberal candidate is supporting abortion.

TheKing

Not true

Ahhh what? Did I read that right King? You're kidding of course? :rolleyes:

I like to razz you about your extreme right-wing views, but I fear you've stepped off the edge with that statement!


If you was just trollin'... looks like I took the bait. If you were serious... might I suggest immediate psychiatric treatment, perhaps even being permanently institutionalized!

4salt,

Thats the problem with libs they want to create their own reality and have it both ways. Show where in the bible you can justify abortion. It will be easier for you rather than me show you all the areas that say it's wrong. I would use all this boards bandwidth. Secondly, when you cast your vote for something it's the same as doing it yourself. I know you libs like to shift ,dodge and weave reality but denial of that is over the top. Please cite chapeter and vs. and show me some of the better known bible scholars views on aboriton and faith.

I look forward to your reply.

Sin is sin there is no sin that is worse than any other sin except in the mind of human beings. Her eis a list of things you cannot support if you are a christian and that are just as bad as murder including abortion.


1. gossip
2. adultery ( including remarriage after a divorce)
3. drunkeness ( let alone drinking and driving)
4. same gender sexual activity
5. gluttony
6. not submitting to the rule of every governing body. hmm it seems our founding fathers must not have been christians
7.not paying wages that represent the profit you make.
8. astrology
9. selfish ambition
10. envy ( when was the last time you got upset cause somoene outbid you on ebay??
11. showing favoritism
12.unforgivness
13. sueing other christians
14.and on and on and on
there are tons and tons and tons of things you cannot support as a christian even the wonton destruction of our enviroment. The truth is All men are sinners including thoes running for political offices that means that they all support some sort of sinful behavior and are therefore equally unsupportable if you are a christian. The idea that you cannot support an pro choice candidate and not be a christian is factually and biblically incorrect and thinking that way is the most basic of misunderstandings of what christianity is.
Christianity ,grace through faith in Jesus Christ. PERIOD thats it there is nothing more,EVER. the apostle Paul even said that he wished that people who added to the gospel would be eternally condemned He thought it was an extremely sever offence because it misled other people. This is exactly the same kind of thing for which he rebuked Peter. As one of my favorite pastors liked to say. " it's grace plus NOTHING" Dr Bill Ritchie crossroads community church Vancouver WA

By the way Bush doesn't support pro life He just uses pro life to gain the right wing vote.
I am a pro life christian and I cannot in good concience vote for George Bush..

RobAllen,

You know the answer, I was baiting them:-)
I was waiting to see inernet search generated anwers not from their own answers.

You did a pretty good job of answering the question. All sin is equal in the eyes of God. That deals with the earthly portion of our life. We also need to deal with organized religion and the doctrine of the various churches. Check out Revelations and studies of revelations. There is more judgement as a part of the tribulation and our earthly deeds with be dealt with and the true Christains sorted out in various fashion.