So many of these political threads seem to mired in dogmatic assumptions about what a liberal is or what a republican is. For instance, The last one "Libs hate reality." What do you mean by libs. The fact is that there really isn't a one size fits all label for liberals or conservatives. Many of us are somewhere in the middle and not at the polar ends that were defined quite some time ago.....

In TK's case anyone who doesn't agree with him is labeled a Liberal.

Here's Websters definition of both a Liberal and a Conservative. It's not a bad thing to be called:

lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.

Archaic. Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
Obsolete. Morally unrestrained; licentious.

n.
A person with liberal ideas or opinions.
Liberal A member of a Liberal political party.


con·ser·va·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.

Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.

n.
One favoring traditional views and values.
A supporter of political conservatism.
Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Archaic. A preservative agent or principle.

"free from bigotry."

Its simpler to define it with one or two examples of liberalism.
1. Hate crimes. That a crime is not only a crime but a more severe crime if it is targeted at a group or individual in a minority. Ie If a Black is killed by a white man just because he is balck it is a worse crime than if a balck man killed another black man because he was black.

2. Abortion. That it is OK to kill another human in order to protect ones rights over her own body. Yet if you kill a woman with that same baby in her womb it's two counts of murder. While also asserting that the father whom donated half of the genetic material for that baby has no rights until the baby is born but is always financially liable for the child. Then on top of allof that it is ok to harvest tissue from the dead baby for the greater good of man because it was dead anyhow.

Those mind benders are great examples of liberal thinking.

And now for the conservative viewpoint on the same issue.

"A woman will decide whether or not to terminate a pregnancy based upon whether that tissue can be used for stem-cell research."

And the real zinger.

"It's better if we incinerate the aborted fetal tissues than use it to save people's lives from horrible diseases."

Yeah........that's using your brain for something......like holding your ears apart. :rolleyes:

PS: Nancy Reagan, the ultimate liberal, and I had a nice chuckle at your post.

Dan,

There are legitimate ways of obtaining stem cells. Aborted fetus are just more plentiful. Nancy is clearly against abortion. Also after 10 years of watching her husband suffer I would give her a little credit for lack of clarity on such an emotional issue. I doubt few would take the tact of using fetal tissue if it came down to aborting and using their own fetus. It's easier with distance.

Answer the simple question: Is it better to incinerate the tissue, or use it to cure diseases?

Don't muddy the water........Nancy's thinking is as clear as air from where I'm standing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Ronald Reagan the first governer to sign a bill to decriminalize abortion in 1967?

Again on the abortion issue I never understand why people feel the need to push their religious beliefs on others and that's exactly what the abortion issue is about. And it's usually from the extreme right who want all people in poverty to fend for themselves. I don't get it. If you aren't born yet then we are willing to kill for you but if you are already born and poor we'd just as soon see you dead. It's supposedly a free country. Leave women alone to make up their own minds. I'm a man. I don't really have a say in the issue unless she asks me.

Hate crime. The other day I listened to John Carlson on the way home from work. Why? I don't know. I never listen to him and was changing stations but his argument struck me. He was complaining about people in this state treating those who have Bush/Cheney bumper stickers and such badly. One guy in Shoreline I guess has a massive banner and all pasted all over his house and he keeps getting egged and such, which is wrong. But Carlson wants to know why it isn't a hate crime to pick on someone per their party affiliation. LOL.

Dan,

Incinerate the law that allows the tissue to be used. I would not want to be cured with tissue from someones preventable murder.

Stlhd,

Since when is murder a religous issue? if it is are you pro murder is you are not religous?

So, you're saying that the organs of a murder victim should be incinerated, instead of transplanted?

here's how I will respond to the abortion issue every single time:

Since I do not and should not have a say I consider it a personal religious belief and since it's a free country it is your personal belief and choice.

Wow Stlhd that was deep. Did that come with your happy meal?

Dan,

Big difference. To use a murder victims body parts they most likely consented. If not then there legal guardian did. It has to be a conflict of interst for the killer to consent to donate fetal tissue in the case of abortion and I am sure that the fetus did not consent.

I'm just curious TK....are you a college alumn? If so, did you take any classes in morality? I'm not suggesting that you don't have any, but for those of us who have taken classes in morality (philosophy), ones understanding of abortion is much deeper. Did you ever hear the story of the famous violinist who was on life support and in order to live, required another person to be hooked up to him for 9 months. The moral question is, is it required for that person to stay hooked up for 9 months?

My answer is that it would be a noble of that person to stay hooked up, but it is not required for that person to do so.

Why is that the right wing preaches lack of government intrusiveness in peoples lives, but when it comes to the most personal issue affecting women, the right wing men want to drive their agenda onto women? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

I just have one more question for you TK, if a women is raped, do you still believe the women should be forced to have the baby?

Jeffed,

How is a womans issue? It takes a man to make a baby where are his rights? More leftist feminist BS that it's a womans issue if not then make all woman refund 1005 of child support payments and make it vouluntary. I would bet the Womans issue woud go away real quick.
Yes it is about morality. Can the raped woman once she finds out she is preganat hunt down and kill the rapist? Why not? because murdr is agaisnt the law. Lets save ourselves the "viable" arguement. Funny how so many unviable fetus' turn into little kids when they are not aborted.

Hey Jeff'e'd,

That was an interesting story about the violinest--Did you ever here the one about the guy who was so open minded his brains fell out?

Bush 2004


"If your not a liberal at twenty you have no heart--If you're still a liberal at forty you have no brain."

TK, your 5 second contribution versus 9 months and then labor qualifies you how?

Stlhd,

Each contribute 50% of the genetic material. Why should one have no rights? Try walking away from a marriage without donating 50% and you will be drawn and quarterd by the courts.

TK, based on your posts it sounds like the rub of your issue has to do with Parent custody rights and enforced child support. I do believe that there is lot of bias in that arena towards the mother and if that' s your issue, I feel your pain. But, abortion and child custody are separate issues and to mingle them, dilutes and confuses the point that your are trying to make.

Jeff,

How so? Most pro abortion make the claim that it is a womens right to choose. Most legal precedent agrees. Yet legal precedent holds the man accountable for supporting the result should she choose not to abort. Go to a dinner party and bring up the fact that you had an abortion as a woman you would most likely get symapathy. At that same dinner party as a man tell them your girlfriend got preganant and you want nothing to do with it and will not support her or the child in any way. Tell me which one gets the most negative feedback.

As I see it, abortion has to do with whether or at what point the rights of the unborn outweigh the rights of the mother.

Once a child reaches the 3rd trimester, it starts to gain "its rights as an individual."

The support and custody of the child are a separate issue and should be dealt with, in my opinion, with a non-biased view of what is in the best interests of the child, without making assumptions based on the sex of the parent.

I'm guessing it's that whole 9 months carrying and then labor thing. So the man should be able to force the woman to carry a child to term against her wishes?

How to solve the whole unwanted children/pregnancy abortion thing could quite possibly involve easy access to birth control but now we go down another religious belief slippery slope of hypocrisy.

AM,

Well said and balanced.

But they can never have the same rights since they can't give birth...well yet anyway. To be honest I really don't know what I think about abortion. I just feel it's a personal decision based upon your own personal beliefs and shouldn't be outlawed by government. But some of these same groups who are rabidly opposed are also opposed to birth control.
Preaching abstinence only is the ostrich approach. It sure didn't work for drugs.

There has to be a better approach than killing the kid. The only choice should be birth or birth control because abstinance does not work. As far as I know only the Catholic church is against birth control.

Maybe some day they will invent a method of live extraction/transplanting. A new method of adoption.

I agree but then teenagers aren't known for thinking too far in advance about anything.

That's because we (men) have all been raised (brainwashed) to "do the right thing" "do right by her" "take responsibility", etc. We've been raised to believe it's ultimately our fault and responsibility.

Wait, wait, wait, let's go back a sec.

That's exactly what I've been trying to tell my wife, but she's havin' none of it.

I think abortion is a necessary evil and something alot of men and women do and then regret. I just wish the argument would not degenarate into "pro-choice" and "pro-life".
Abortion is the termination of a life. Get over it. Sugar coating it to lessen the remorse and stigma is just plain dumb. There is a baby growing inside a woman and someone decides to terminate the baby. Done deal.

I was involved in an abortion at a very early age and didn't think much of it until later when I saw three daughters and one grandson born. My daughter and her husband should never have had a child at this time but the thought of killing what turned out to be my pride and joy in life is scary and really unthinkable. Abortion is too easy and so is marriage. So easy to terminate either one.