I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas.....


.....Just like the one I used to know (in 1968).

------------------------------------------------------------

Here's more evidence of John "they call him Flipper-Flipper.... king of the Mekong" Kerry's contradictions, flip-flops or outright lies about his service in SE Asia :

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200408101318.asp

seriously rory, try to post something that hasn't been debunked or had its credibility ripped to shreds.

Because you can do better...

From the article:
Given the choice between believing Kerry or Gardner, it's pretty simple.

And it doesn't change the fact that Kerry volunteered for combat. Unlike George "Driving That Plane, High on Cocaine" Bouche.

GH,

Kerry coulkd have been on the dumper in sinapore and you would find a way to justify his actions.

...but he wasn't.

Dumbya Bouche could have been face deep in a cokepile while Kerry was serving his country and you'd find a way to justify that.

Oh..........................................

Goharley and h20,

What credible evidence do you have that GW was using cocaine during his service in the 'Guard?
------------------------------------------------------------

goharley,

Since you're the military expert, do you know what percentage of active duty servicemen/women are Absent Without a Leave for a small period of time during their service career?

Finally, in the eyes of the military and it's judicial system, if found guilty--which is a worse offense: Being AWOL for a short period of time or Being a WAR CRIMINAL?

cool, an argument for a change.

I'm going to assume this is where you trot out the 'aiding and abetting the enemy' argument.

Only when you do, try to get it straight, ok? 'War crimes' are pursued by the world court, not the us military, so your argument is flawed from the get go.

Furthermore, even if war crimes were punishable by the us military Kerry couldn't be prosecuted for what you are suggesting because HE WAS EXCERSISING HIS RIGHT AS AN AMERICAN TO FREE SPEECH as a civilian over whom the military has no jurisdiction.

So the only possible answer to your question is AWOL.

Maybe I'm not getting it...try rephrasing the question.

------------------------------------------------------------

Also from the article:


In March 1986, Kerry said, during a speech on the Senate floor, that, "I remember Christmas in 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietmanese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians........I have that memory which is seared----seared----in me..."

That statement isn't speculation or conjecture----That statement is Kerry's OWN words.

War criminal?

The truth will only stretch so far........right now it looks like Stretch Armstrong.


Justifying being AWOL? Nice.

Oh, this is too rich. Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot.

AuntyM,

So GW is now a deserter?

Please explain how the word 'desertion' in any way applies to Bush 43's service record.
------------------------------------------------------------

Like Bushwick Bill said, "give me some of that $hit you 'been smoking."

I'm not a military expert, I only play one in your mind.

Do some research and you'll find multiple references to Bouche and coke.

If you were truly concerned about credible evidence you wouldn't post 99% of the crap you do.

By the way, your quote from the article leads credence to mine. Thank you.

Here's another good argument and justication for making Kerry's campaign song:
------------------------------------------------------------
They call him Flipper--Flipper, King of the Mekong.....

No one you see....

Changes positions better than he......

------'come on-all together now-----
------------------------------------------------------------
Another good read and nail in the coffin of Pierre's presidential bid :

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/220785p-189814c.html
------------------------------------------------------------

If that's your definition of a good read, then... well... I'm sorry I over-estimated you.

Funny how the GOP is trying to nail Kerry now for one day in question. But they seem to keep dodging the Bouche AWOL question. Doesn't it seem odd that Bouche can't find a single guy to come forward saying they served together? Honorably?

No but then the topic was 250 swift boat vetrans saying Kerry is lying. Saying things like he refused to patrol up river and wanted to stay in the delta. Saying he was no where near Cambodia, Saying that he self inflicted two of his 3 PH's wounds. Saying that they feel he came to vietnam to stage things for his ultimate goal of running for president. They are generally saying he is a lying ,cheating , self serving individual that is unfit for the CIC title. Which has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with Kerry. Stick to the topic.

Can someone point me to the proof\witnesses or whatever you have that shows that Bush was AWOL? I keep hearing that brought up, but I've never actually seen the condemning evidence...

Can someone point me to the proof\witnesses or whatever you have that shows that Bush was AWOL? I keep hearing that brought up, but I've never actually seen the condemning evidence...

where was he?

you tell us where he was during the time in question and we'll all shut up.

I guess that's my question. What is the 'time in question'? I haven't really had a chance to look into this whole AWOL thing.

Was there a post on this I missed? I'll go back and look...

I'm also curious how these not so siwft boaters for bush remember in detail wounds, where he was, etc 40 years ago.....????

OK, here's an article about it:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5761856

So the issue is that people have questions that they are having trouble finding answers to. Some issues are due to some issues finding certain military records. Some issues are around finding witnesses. But all i've seen is lack of evidence that is being used to assume a possible issue.

The issue with Kerry is much more air tight it would seem and not based purely on assumptions. We have many witnesses, motive, his own words from recorded interviews and public testimony, his own words from his book, his military records (that we don't have all of dispite promises), etc.

that depends completely upon who you choose to believe, doesn't it?

...where does Bush say he was during that time period? Valid question?

As for Kerry we KNOW where he was. Airtight.

Depends on whether you believe the guys that were actually on his boat under his command, or the guys viewing from a distance, judging from hear-say, using recollection from 35+ years ago, and have a personal vendetta against him for a plethora of reasons.

Still can't change the fact: he volunteered for combat duty. Bouche cannot account for his entire time in the Air Guard.

Why can't he find someone to vouch for him? All the guys in that Guard unit and no one's got his back? Isn't there at least a crewchief for each plane that could say Bouche was around each weekend for duty?

GH,

I do remember some fossil being put on a News program who claimed he served with George, I just don't remember which one. I believe it was Hardball with Chris Mathews or Fox News.

"Still can't change the fact: he volunteered for combat duty"

Yes, because he felt it would be good for his political future. He was in and out just long enough to:

* shoot some home video to use for his future caompaigns
* be able to CLAIM first hand knowlege of war atrocities commited by US troops
* be able to CLAIM he participated in many of these atrocities
* get 3 stratches so he could apply for purple hearts and get out as quick as he could
* come home to the US and play the war hero turned anti-war activist \ political hero\crusader

He's been caught in several lies. Still hasn't shown all his records. Contributed to the loss of the war. Turned on his fellow military men and helped fuel the anger and resentment for them when they returned home to be spit on...

I'm not saying I think George W is free of any of the allegations and I'm not blindly enamored with a false image of him. But I personally am more concerned with Kerry's past actions. So let's say that Bush is a liar - does this mean we want another bigger liar in office?

Kerry wants to be a war hero president. But his own words have him pegged as a supposed war criminal - guilty of self confessed war atrocities. Which is it?

"When the enemy is firing on you, the last thing you're thinking about is getting elected President"

And you know this from first hand knowledge?

It's well documented that people react differently.

One of the SB vets was on local radio this after noon. He said form first hand knowledge that is was common knowledge that Kerry was there to build his resume for politics and that everything he did while there proved it.

Common knowledge?

And you know this from personal experience????

Ride on daddy's coattails or volunteer for duty in Vietnam hmmmmmm which is the safer option if I want a career in politics???????

Trying to ruin Kerry's credibility by ridiculing his military history is laughable. Where were all these critics when he was actually receiving the medals? Where are the demands to review how purple hearts are issued in the military? Oh yeah, they weren't complaining then... And they aren't demanding the military review how purple hearts are issued? So then why are they being critical now????? Hmmmmmm that last one is a stumper.

"So then why are they being critical now????? "

It's not rocket science folks. Before they just didn't like the arogant punk who was just another jerk among other jerks. Now the back stabber wants to the CIC of the same military he trampled on. Of course they are coming out of the woodwork now.


On a semi related note - my dad is coming to visit next month. I have never really talked politics with him and for all I know he might hate GW. I do know he tends to be more conservative though... Anyway, he served his full term in Vietnam, and I'm pretty sure he was on a swift boat. I have pics of him sitting on small, very mobile boats with 50 cal guns mounted on board. Should be interesting to get his point of view on all this. He never talked much about his service, but it was clear he didn't appreciate his 'warm welcome' and those 'hippies' who spit at them and called them baby killers. I can't imagine he'll be a big Kerry fan because of that. But I have to wait until next month to talk about it...

LOL. "political suicide"???

Let's look at the REAL facts...

So...

"If Kerry was motivated to create a political career ... he would NOT have protested the Vietnam War, tossed medals or testified before Congress. "


And yet even though he commited this "political suicide" in such an honorable, selfless, and heroic way - he still magically ended up as a career politition. Did they change the definition of suicide when I wasn't looking? Suicide = getting exactly what you planned on???

LOL. You get busted on a crazy theory that makes no sense, so you result to a personal attack instead of trying to defend your position... Very tactful.


Who cares what the 'political climate' was to you way back then. Let's look at the claims being made, and the ACTUAL results...

Option 1) Kerry had a political agenda when he went to vietnam AND after when he tossed his medals\ribbons, etc: result = Kerry's aganda has been successful to date as evidence in his long standing political career. Clearly his alleged 'suicice' attempt was complete flop...

Option 2) Kerry had an agenda going into the war, but found a higher calling in protesting the war - thus commiting political suicide. Kerry then went on to pursue a career in basket weaving - oops, apparently the suicide attempt back fired and he actually did make it into politics. Fluke? Or was that the plan all along??

So Kerry knew in his early 20's that he would one day run for president against a guy that had questionable military attendance and had started a war after the nation was attacked by terrorists and the nation would be looking for a strong leader to wage the war against terror.

He knew all that before he volunteered for combat.

Wow. If he's really that good, then he's exactly what we need.

LOL. Once again you can't backup your wacky claims.

Was it political suicide or not??? If it was, how come he still managed a long (yet surpisingly uninspiring) political career?? Please answer the question instead of dodging it with lame insults.

I'm so glad you uncovered a great misconception about logic, facts, history, and the personal study, research, and drawing personal conclusions of...

Now I know I shouldn't bother discussing historical events with friends and family who have personal experience. That will save me a lot of time. But why stop there?? I'll call the media outlets and tell them not to bother with interviewing anymore people with personal experiences and opinions to share. Then I'm heading down the the library to ask them to burn all their historical, political, biographical, etc books ASPAP. Then they should stop buying any more. Think of all the tax dollars saved. Heck, we could save Social Security with the tax dollars saved when we fire the History\Politics\Civics teachers and professors and stop buying the useless text books. Thank you, I have a new mission in life! LOL

LOL GH. Nice try, but you can do better. He already had a long political career as he had hoped. The presidency would just be the icing on the cake. In his own words he has said that he was interested in politics before he went to 'nam. And guess what - he did go into politics...

LOL Nice try, PP. A lot of people say they are interested in politics at a young age. Hell, some even say they want to be president. Doesn't mean everything they do has an agenda.

He volunteered for combat, and one of the most hazardous duties at the time. Trying to claim that he did so merely for political reasons is quite a stretch.

LOL. AM - when all else fails (as it seems to often for you...), resort to name calling or nit-picking someone's spelling. LOL

GH - let's see if Kerry had a political calling that he knew from and early age. Perhaps it was his political father or his activist mother he wanted to follow - or maybe his skull and bones buddies who convinced him to go to war, or his desire to be like his hero - jfk?


From Kerry’s own website: johnkerry.com

His mother, Rosemary, was a lifelong community activist
She was an environmentalist and a community activist.
his father was a Foreign Service Officer in the Eisenhower administration
As he was graduating from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam
His two great heroes - his father and John F. Kennedy - had served during World War II. John Kerry wanted to follow both their example
They were simply a band of brothers who all fought under the same flag and all prayed to the same God. And that is the America John Kerry wants today
After graduating from Boston College Law School in 1976
went to work as a top prosecutor in Middlesex County
John Kerry was elected Lieutenant Governor in 1982
he organized the nation's Governors to combat the acid rain that was polluting lakes, rivers, and the nation's water supply
Two years later, he was elected to the United States Senate
He has been praised as one of the leading environmentalists in the Senate
John Kerry has never forgotten the lessons he learned as a young man

From another source:
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml

Most students who had graduated from Yale with Kerry the previous year knew him as the ultimate Brahmin, the studious and serious class orator who longed to run for president someday.
members of the university's elite Skull and Bones society
He enjoyed the cachet of illustrious family names but not always the bonds of a household.
By the time he was 10 years old, he was shipped off for an eight-year odyssey at boarding schools in Switzerland and New England
More than any one place, his ties were to a social milieu -- that rarefied world of wealth and privilege where the French is fluent and the manners impeccable
John Kerry dated Jacqueline Kennedy's half-sister and once sailed Narragansett Bay with JFK at the helm
He married wealthy wives whose net worth dwarfed his own
determined to turn a boyhood dream of following in JFK's footsteps into the reality of a Democratic primary win
But by the time he was 7, the family had moved to Washington. Politics was part of dinner-table conversation
paying close attention to presidential elections, and then along came John F. Kennedy… that is really when John began to be actively interested in politics

As graduation approached, Kerry knew that he had three choices: be drafted, seek a deferment for graduate school, or join up and position himself to become an officer. ``It was clear to me that I was going to be at risk,'' Kerry recalled. ``My draft board . . . said, `Look, the likelihood is you are probably going to be drafted.' I said, `If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility and be an officer.' ''

Kerry also had political ambitions -- and was aware of how much military service had served John Kennedy's career. ``John would clearly say, `If I could make my dream come true, it would be running for president of the United States,' '' recalled William Stanberry, Kerry's debate team partner for three years. ``It was not a casual interest. It was a serious, stated interest. His lifetime ambition was to be in political office.''
Only 15 students were chosen each year, and Kerry was picked mostly because he was viewed as a future political leader

But what fellow ``bonesmen'' most remember is how Kerry steered the talk toward Vietnam.

Many at Yale noticed that this young man, on his way to becoming a commissioned officer in Vietnam, was critical of the war -- and the use of American military might against communist regimes

Hey, you may be on to something. Let's look at that again:

Yep, that Kerry's a heck of a guy. Not only did he volunteer for some of the most dangerous combat duty, he wanted responsibility along with it. That's a great pro-Kerry sound bite.

Oh yeah, and he said:
Notice it doesn't say anything about joining to further his political career. Sure the next paragraph mentions he was aware that combat duty benefitted Kennedy, but that's hardly evidence that he joined strictly for that reason. If his volunteering was politically motivated he surely would have taken a much less dangerous position.

I know, I know - the camera. There are millions of photos and video shots taken by guys in country. Does that mean they all had political agendas?

William Calley volunteered as did many other notable vetrans. Does that mean they get a free pass on all questions? Or is it situational?

What question has Kerry refused to answer about his Volunteering for dangerous combat duty?

Support The DrudgeReport; Visit Our Advertisers XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU AUG 12, 2004 21:01:21 ET XXXXX

JANUARY -- NOT CHRISTMAS -- KERRY IN CAMBODIA

**Exclusive**

TOUR OF DUTY author and John Kerry historian Doug Brinkley is rushing a piece for the NEW YORKER: to set-the-record-straight on Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia tale, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Kerry has turned to author Brinkley for a "modification" after it was exposed that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968, as he once claimed from the Senate floor.

The Brinkley piece for the NEW YORKER will now say that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas, but rather in January, publishing sources tell DRUDGE.

MORE

Since the early 1970s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the floor of the Senate in 1986 when he charged that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the U.S. in another Vietnam. Here’s what he said as excerpted from the new book, UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me."

John O’Neil’s, author of UNFIT FOR COMMAND, comments on the “clarification:”

“John Kerry describes Christmas Eve in Cambodia as a critical turning point in his life. We now know that his story is completely false. My question is how many people do you know have invented a turning point, one that is seared in his memory? While it makes sense for John Kerry to come clean about the Cambodia story, it is one of several tales that the Kerry campaign will have to face and clarify.”

“By claiming we were engaged in a war crime and crossing international borders, John Kerry damaged the credibility of all the commanding officers above him and insulted the sailors who served with him,” said John O’Neill, member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.”

Developing...

AM - you still haven't addressed this yet:

"LOL. Once again you can't backup your wacky claims.

Was it political suicide or not??? If it was, how come he still managed a long (yet surpisingly uninspiring) political career?? Please answer the question instead of dodging it with lame insults."

Well, there you have it. If Drudge reports it, then it must be true. :rolleyes: Just like that story about his extramarital affair.

Oh, by the way, when someone asks you what you did last Christmas, do they always mean that exact day? Or do they use it as a term for the holiday season? Just curious. You know, like when someone says, "My parents are flying out for Christmas," I don't naturally assume they mean the parents are arriving on Christmas day and then leaving again that day.

Also, the english language has these really cool things called periods. And what they do is separate sentences and thoughts. Like the following example: "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia." See? Those two sentences means the author wasn't implying that he was necessarily shot at while on the boat during Christmas. Notice further that the comma used ties together the context of the second sentence meaning it was various memories over a period of time. This context can also be applied to the first sentence meaning that it covered a period of time, not a particular point in time.

Ahhh, the english language. Marvelous tool once you grasp the basics.

Originally posted by goharley:

How does grammer account for this then GH?

This from Andrew Antippos in this morning's Washington Times:

-----------------------------------------

"Finally, concerning the assertion that Mr. Kerry was shot at by the Khmer Rouge during his Christmas 1968 visit to Cambodia, it should be noted that the Khmer Rouge didn't take the field until the Easter Offensive of 1972, when the Vietnamese forces that had attacked the Cambodians initially in March 1970 pulled out of Cambodia to attack the U.S. and Vietnamese forces in Vietnam. Only Vietnamese Communist soldiers were found on the battlefields of Cambodia in 1970-72."

-----------------------------------------

Antippos was the US Foreign Service officer in Saigon in charge of Cambodia issues from March, 1966 through February, 1970. From February, 1970 until 1972, he was assigned to the US Embassy in Phnom Phen.

:rolleyes: I already explained it all. English, gentleman. Learn it, use it.

Taking something out of context and repeating it numerous times in different spins does not make it true.

One thing you cannot take out of of context: He volunteered for combat duty. The incumbent did not.

AM - you still haven't addressed this yet:

"LOL. Once again you can't backup your wacky claims.

Was it political suicide or not??? If it was, how come he still managed a long (yet surpisingly uninspiring) political career?? Please answer the question instead of dodging it with lame insults."


After all, this is an "... absolute and undeniable fact" that you have trumped us with. I'm sure you can exlpain since it is so clear and obvious...


*****crickets*****


Oh well. Guess I'll check back next week after my vacation... (I'm gone until next Thurs)

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It's not unusual in Massachusetts--this is the same 'enlightened' state that re-elects Ted Kennedy every six years no matter how many mistereses' drownings he tries to cover up or how many rapes he's implicated in.
------------------------------------------------------------

BTW--since Bob nipped the 'Selective my A$$'
thread---I wanted to say that I wasn't suggesting that you condoned slavery--I was trying to make the point that just because the tribes historically did something (gaming or slavery) they shouldn't automatically be able to start doing it again. :p

One point on the tribes and their slavery....The Makahs for example used to travel by canoe to Vancouver Island to bring back slaves from other tribes..one of their sacred traditions like gambling....Trouble is that the Stevens treaties of 1855 allowed them to whale and kill seals and fish but they had to agree to stop the practice of slavery. They agreed and so they can't claim the right to have slaves anymore. I can't seem to find the part about fireworks though.

------------------------------------------------------------

It's very telling that John Kerry is now CHANGING his version of what happened in SE
Asia---but the 250+ sailors who served with Kerry in Vietnam that contributed to 'Unfit for Command' are NOT changing their version.

http://www.swiftvets.com

--------All together now:

They call him Flipper, Flipper...

King of the Mekong.

No one you see......

Changes positions better than he.

BELVEDEEEEEEEERRRE!!

COME HERE BOY!!!

I love it when the Republicans keep this issue infront of everyone.....(Kerry's military service record vs. Bush's). Keep it up TK, PP, et all. Kerry will always come out ahead!!!

Yeah, that same Drudge crap has been posted in this forum about a dozen times now. The same Drudge tabloid that broke the story on Kerry's mistress and affair. :rolleyes:

They get lucky with one story on Clinton, and now they're considered credible?