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#270197 - 08/11/04 07:08 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2449
Loc: Portland
that depends completely upon who you choose to believe, doesn't it?

...where does Bush say he was during that time period? Valid question?

As for Kerry we KNOW where he was. Airtight.
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#270199 - 08/11/04 07:14 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
Quote:
Originally posted by PhishPhreak:
The issue with Kerry is much more air tight it would seem and not based purely on assumptions.
Depends on whether you believe the guys that were actually on his boat under his command, or the guys viewing from a distance, judging from hear-say, using recollection from 35+ years ago, and have a personal vendetta against him for a plethora of reasons.

Still can't change the fact: he volunteered for combat duty. Bouche cannot account for his entire time in the Air Guard.

Why can't he find someone to vouch for him? All the guys in that Guard unit and no one's got his back? Isn't there at least a crewchief for each plane that could say Bouche was around each weekend for duty?
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#270200 - 08/11/04 07:19 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
jeff'e'd Offline
Spawner

Registered: 07/10/00
Posts: 948
Loc: Snohomish, WA USA
GH,

I do remember some fossil being put on a News program who claimed he served with George, I just don't remember which one. I believe it was Hardball with Chris Mathews or Fox News.

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#270201 - 08/11/04 07:35 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
"Still can't change the fact: he volunteered for combat duty"

Yes, because he felt it would be good for his political future. He was in and out just long enough to:

* shoot some home video to use for his future caompaigns
* be able to CLAIM first hand knowlege of war atrocities commited by US troops
* be able to CLAIM he participated in many of these atrocities
* get 3 stratches so he could apply for purple hearts and get out as quick as he could
* come home to the US and play the war hero turned anti-war activist \ political hero\crusader

He's been caught in several lies. Still hasn't shown all his records. Contributed to the loss of the war. Turned on his fellow military men and helped fuel the anger and resentment for them when they returned home to be spit on...

I'm not saying I think George W is free of any of the allegations and I'm not blindly enamored with a false image of him. But I personally am more concerned with Kerry's past actions. So let's say that Bush is a liar - does this mean we want another bigger liar in office?

Kerry wants to be a war hero president. But his own words have him pegged as a supposed war criminal - guilty of self confessed war atrocities. Which is it?

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#270203 - 08/11/04 07:50 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
"When the enemy is firing on you, the last thing you're thinking about is getting elected President"

And you know this from first hand knowledge?

It's well documented that people react differently.

One of the SB vets was on local radio this after noon. He said form first hand knowledge that is was common knowledge that Kerry was there to build his resume for politics and that everything he did while there proved it.
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#270204 - 08/11/04 07:54 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 384
Loc: Portland
Common knowledge?

And you know this from personal experience????

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#270206 - 08/11/04 08:19 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
Wailuku Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 384
Loc: Portland
Ride on daddy's coattails or volunteer for duty in Vietnam hmmmmmm which is the safer option if I want a career in politics???????

Trying to ruin Kerry's credibility by ridiculing his military history is laughable. Where were all these critics when he was actually receiving the medals? Where are the demands to review how purple hearts are issued in the military? Oh yeah, they weren't complaining then... And they aren't demanding the military review how purple hearts are issued? So then why are they being critical now????? Hmmmmmm that last one is a stumper.

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#270207 - 08/12/04 12:34 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
"So then why are they being critical now????? "

It's not rocket science folks. Before they just didn't like the arogant punk who was just another jerk among other jerks. Now the back stabber wants to the CIC of the same military he trampled on. Of course they are coming out of the woodwork now.


On a semi related note - my dad is coming to visit next month. I have never really talked politics with him and for all I know he might hate GW. I do know he tends to be more conservative though... Anyway, he served his full term in Vietnam, and I'm pretty sure he was on a swift boat. I have pics of him sitting on small, very mobile boats with 50 cal guns mounted on board. Should be interesting to get his point of view on all this. He never talked much about his service, but it was clear he didn't appreciate his 'warm welcome' and those 'hippies' who spit at them and called them baby killers. I can't imagine he'll be a big Kerry fan because of that. But I have to wait until next month to talk about it...

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#270210 - 08/12/04 02:20 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL. "political suicide"???

Let's look at the REAL facts...

So...

"If Kerry was motivated to create a political career ... he would NOT have protested the Vietnam War, tossed medals or testified before Congress. "


And yet even though he commited this "political suicide" in such an honorable, selfless, and heroic way - he still magically ended up as a career politition. Did they change the definition of suicide when I wasn't looking? Suicide = getting exactly what you planned on???

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#270212 - 08/12/04 02:44 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL. You get busted on a crazy theory that makes no sense, so you result to a personal attack instead of trying to defend your position... Very tactful.


Who cares what the 'political climate' was to you way back then. Let's look at the claims being made, and the ACTUAL results...

Option 1) Kerry had a political agenda when he went to vietnam AND after when he tossed his medals\ribbons, etc: result = Kerry's aganda has been successful to date as evidence in his long standing political career. Clearly his alleged 'suicice' attempt was complete flop...

Option 2) Kerry had an agenda going into the war, but found a higher calling in protesting the war - thus commiting political suicide. Kerry then went on to pursue a career in basket weaving - oops, apparently the suicide attempt back fired and he actually did make it into politics. Fluke? Or was that the plan all along??

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#270214 - 08/12/04 03:41 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
Quote:
Originally posted by PhishPhreak:
Option 1) Kerry had a political agenda when he went to vietnam ...

Option 2) Kerry had an agenda going into the war...
So Kerry knew in his early 20's that he would one day run for president against a guy that had questionable military attendance and had started a war after the nation was attacked by terrorists and the nation would be looking for a strong leader to wage the war against terror.

He knew all that before he volunteered for combat.

Wow. If he's really that good, then he's exactly what we need.
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Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#270215 - 08/12/04 03:42 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL. Once again you can't backup your wacky claims.

Was it political suicide or not??? If it was, how come he still managed a long (yet surpisingly uninspiring) political career?? Please answer the question instead of dodging it with lame insults.

I'm so glad you uncovered a great misconception about logic, facts, history, and the personal study, research, and drawing personal conclusions of...

Now I know I shouldn't bother discussing historical events with friends and family who have personal experience. That will save me a lot of time. But why stop there?? I'll call the media outlets and tell them not to bother with interviewing anymore people with personal experiences and opinions to share. Then I'm heading down the the library to ask them to burn all their historical, political, biographical, etc books ASPAP. Then they should stop buying any more. Think of all the tax dollars saved. Heck, we could save Social Security with the tax dollars saved when we fire the History\Politics\Civics teachers and professors and stop buying the useless text books. Thank you, I have a new mission in life! LOL

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#270216 - 08/12/04 03:45 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL GH. Nice try, but you can do better. He already had a long political career as he had hoped. The presidency would just be the icing on the cake. In his own words he has said that he was interested in politics before he went to 'nam. And guess what - he did go into politics...

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#270217 - 08/12/04 03:55 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
LOL Nice try, PP. A lot of people say they are interested in politics at a young age. Hell, some even say they want to be president. Doesn't mean everything they do has an agenda.

He volunteered for combat, and one of the most hazardous duties at the time. Trying to claim that he did so merely for political reasons is quite a stretch.
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Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#270219 - 08/12/04 04:38 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
LOL. AM - when all else fails (as it seems to often for you...), resort to name calling or nit-picking someone's spelling. LOL

GH - let's see if Kerry had a political calling that he knew from and early age. Perhaps it was his political father or his activist mother he wanted to follow - or maybe his skull and bones buddies who convinced him to go to war, or his desire to be like his hero - jfk?


From Kerry’s own website: johnkerry.com

His mother, Rosemary, was a lifelong community activist
She was an environmentalist and a community activist.
his father was a Foreign Service Officer in the Eisenhower administration
As he was graduating from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam
His two great heroes - his father and John F. Kennedy - had served during World War II. John Kerry wanted to follow both their example
They were simply a band of brothers who all fought under the same flag and all prayed to the same God. And that is the America John Kerry wants today
After graduating from Boston College Law School in 1976
went to work as a top prosecutor in Middlesex County
John Kerry was elected Lieutenant Governor in 1982
he organized the nation's Governors to combat the acid rain that was polluting lakes, rivers, and the nation's water supply
Two years later, he was elected to the United States Senate
He has been praised as one of the leading environmentalists in the Senate
John Kerry has never forgotten the lessons he learned as a young man

From another source:
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml

Most students who had graduated from Yale with Kerry the previous year knew him as the ultimate Brahmin, the studious and serious class orator who longed to run for president someday.
members of the university's elite Skull and Bones society
He enjoyed the cachet of illustrious family names but not always the bonds of a household.
By the time he was 10 years old, he was shipped off for an eight-year odyssey at boarding schools in Switzerland and New England
More than any one place, his ties were to a social milieu -- that rarefied world of wealth and privilege where the French is fluent and the manners impeccable
John Kerry dated Jacqueline Kennedy's half-sister and once sailed Narragansett Bay with JFK at the helm
He married wealthy wives whose net worth dwarfed his own
determined to turn a boyhood dream of following in JFK's footsteps into the reality of a Democratic primary win
But by the time he was 7, the family had moved to Washington. Politics was part of dinner-table conversation
paying close attention to presidential elections, and then along came John F. Kennedy… that is really when John began to be actively interested in politics

As graduation approached, Kerry knew that he had three choices: be drafted, seek a deferment for graduate school, or join up and position himself to become an officer. ``It was clear to me that I was going to be at risk,'' Kerry recalled. ``My draft board . . . said, `Look, the likelihood is you are probably going to be drafted.' I said, `If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility and be an officer.' ''

Kerry also had political ambitions -- and was aware of how much military service had served John Kennedy's career. ``John would clearly say, `If I could make my dream come true, it would be running for president of the United States,' '' recalled William Stanberry, Kerry's debate team partner for three years. ``It was not a casual interest. It was a serious, stated interest. His lifetime ambition was to be in political office.''
Only 15 students were chosen each year, and Kerry was picked mostly because he was viewed as a future political leader

But what fellow ``bonesmen'' most remember is how Kerry steered the talk toward Vietnam.

Many at Yale noticed that this young man, on his way to becoming a commissioned officer in Vietnam, was critical of the war -- and the use of American military might against communist regimes

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#270221 - 08/12/04 06:40 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
Quote:
Originally posted by PhishPhreak:
Kerry recalled ...`If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility and be an officer.'
Hey, you may be on to something. Let's look at that again:

Quote:
Originally posted by PhishPhreak:
...If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility ...
Yep, that Kerry's a heck of a guy. Not only did he volunteer for some of the most dangerous combat duty, he wanted responsibility along with it. That's a great pro-Kerry sound bite.

Oh yeah, and he said:
Quote:
Kerry knew that he had three choices: be drafted, seek a deferment for graduate school, or join up and position himself to become an officer.
Notice it doesn't say anything about joining to further his political career. Sure the next paragraph mentions he was aware that combat duty benefitted Kennedy, but that's hardly evidence that he joined strictly for that reason. If his volunteering was politically motivated he surely would have taken a much less dangerous position.

I know, I know - the camera. There are millions of photos and video shots taken by guys in country. Does that mean they all had political agendas?
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Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#270222 - 08/12/04 06:51 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
William Calley volunteered as did many other notable vetrans. Does that mean they get a free pass on all questions? Or is it situational?
_________________________
Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#270223 - 08/12/04 09:48 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3188
Loc: U.S. Army
What question has Kerry refused to answer about his Volunteering for dangerous combat duty?
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

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#270224 - 08/13/04 02:32 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
Theking Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 4756
Loc: The right side of the line
Support The DrudgeReport; Visit Our Advertisers XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU AUG 12, 2004 21:01:21 ET XXXXX

JANUARY -- NOT CHRISTMAS -- KERRY IN CAMBODIA

**Exclusive**

TOUR OF DUTY author and John Kerry historian Doug Brinkley is rushing a piece for the NEW YORKER: to set-the-record-straight on Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia tale, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Kerry has turned to author Brinkley for a "modification" after it was exposed that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968, as he once claimed from the Senate floor.

The Brinkley piece for the NEW YORKER will now say that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas, but rather in January, publishing sources tell DRUDGE.

MORE

Since the early 1970s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the floor of the Senate in 1986 when he charged that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the U.S. in another Vietnam. Here’s what he said as excerpted from the new book, UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me."

John O’Neil’s, author of UNFIT FOR COMMAND, comments on the “clarification:”

“John Kerry describes Christmas Eve in Cambodia as a critical turning point in his life. We now know that his story is completely false. My question is how many people do you know have invented a turning point, one that is seared in his memory? While it makes sense for John Kerry to come clean about the Cambodia story, it is one of several tales that the Kerry campaign will have to face and clarify.”

“By claiming we were engaged in a war crime and crossing international borders, John Kerry damaged the credibility of all the commanding officers above him and insulted the sailors who served with him,” said John O’Neill, member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.”

Developing...
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Liberalism is a mental illness!

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#270225 - 08/13/04 03:04 PM Re: I'm dreaming of a Cambodian Christmas
PhishPhreak Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 1066
Loc: North Bend, WA
AM - you still haven't addressed this yet:

"LOL. Once again you can't backup your wacky claims.

Was it political suicide or not??? If it was, how come he still managed a long (yet surpisingly uninspiring) political career?? Please answer the question instead of dodging it with lame insults."

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