Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: Puyallup Tribes now top donor


From: Tim Eyman, ph: 425-493-9127

RE: Anti-892 fundraising hits $5,087,739.70 -- Puyallup Tribes now top
donor at $1,497,835

According to the latest campaign reports posted on the PDC website on
Monday, the tribal casinos have raised $5,087,739.70. On 9/27, the Puyallup
Tribes contributed $747,835 which, when added to their $750,000 donation on
9/22, brings the Puyallup Tribes total to $1,497,835. They're now the No on
892 campaign's #1 donor (the Tulalip Tribes contributed a flat $1 million on
8/05 and are the #2 donor).

All of the opposition's funding is from the tribal casinos. They can
afford it because politicians have given the tribal casinos a
government-protected monopoly which allows them monopoly profits. The
tribal casinos can also afford such huge contributions because they don't
have to pay taxes to federal, state, and local governments.

The tribal casinos have raised a record amount of money. They are
clearly shattering all records on fundraising and it's still darn early.

But voters aren't for sale.

ARE TAXPAYERS WILLING TO PAY AN EXTRA $400 MILLION PER YEAR IN
ADDITIONAL PROPERTY TAXES, JUST SO THE TRIBAL CASINOS CAN MAINTAIN A
GOVERNMENT-PROTECTED MONOPOLY? NO WAY.

I-892 is a win-win revenue-neutral tax cutting initiative, providing
$400 million per year in meaningful and long-overdue property tax relief.
The tribal casinos are offering no alternative -- they clearly don't have a
stake in our state's property tax problem because tribal casinos don't pay
property taxes (or any other taxes to federal, state, and local
governments). But taxpayers are struggling and desperately need relief.
I-892 is the only opportunity that taxpayers have this November to lessen
their crushing tax burden and to give our state's sluggish economy a big
boost.

OMG... I hope no one is buying this "stuff."

I am no fan of Casinos but at least the Tribes are in this State and the revenue from their Casinos goes into paying wages and buying services and profits get plowed right back into our local economies.

Who do you think is paying for the YES part of this initiative??? Canadian companies. They currently own more than half of the non-Indian Casinos. They are bankrolling eyeman. And they stand to profit tremendously from passage of the initiative. Its called FOREIGN INVESTMENT... which means profits leave.

If you want most the profits from the HUGE expansion of Casinos that will follow passage of this initiative to go to Canada, then vote yes.

If you want to limit the number of Casinos in the State and keep profits from the number of Casinos that exist now turning around in our local economies then vote NO.

Simple as that.

Couple questions for the board about this initiative:

1) Where does the money go to that the tribes make in the casinos they own? (wages, etc. are understood...but what about the profits?

2) Do the native employees of those casino's pay taxes? (federal, property, etc?)

3) What percentage of the employees of the native casinos are non-native?

I believe in EQUAL rights for ALL people that live in the US, including gays and NA's.

From our own Declaration of Independance:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

If we are all equal, then we should ALL live by the same rules.

Yeah...I'm a dreamer.

Mike

Do you blame the tribes for trying to protect thier buisness or the non tribal casinos for trying to get a chunk of the slot machine pie??? It seems to me that this is a question that is not just money, but also a life style question. Where do you want slot machines, video poker or other gambling? Is it worth the revenue generated to allow gambling state wide? These are questions I will not answer here, just some you need to pose to yourself.

As far as the money generated the state estimates that the slots would generate about 275 million, not 400 million or about a $30 per year per $100,000 assesed value on personal property taxes. I got these numbers from a news report I saw on campaign ads and the numbers they use depending on which side they are on.

Now back to more important stuff. Do you think there will be any new silvers around the shipwreck on monday??? Kids have the day off school and I was thinking of taking the day off?

Mike B - I am not sure I have an answer for all of your questions but I will take a shot...

1. Most Tribes with Casinos are putting their profits back into economic development and Tribal services. This means they hire construction companies to build stores, office complexes, housing, etc. And it means they hire people to expand services (medical and dental, for example) to Tribal members. There are one or two or three Tribes (western WA) that pay a dividend to their members but most are using profits for providing more services.

2. The wages earned by Tribal members as employees at Casinos are taxed the same as non-Tribal employees. It is the treaty fishing income that is not taxed. If Tribal members own property off reservation then they pay property taxes the same as anyone else.

3. I do not know what percentage of the Casino employees are Tribal and what percentage are non-Tribal. I suppose it varies quite a bit from site to site. From what I have seen and understood, at least half of the employees at Tribal Casinos are non-Indian. And depending on the Casino the range might be 300 to 800 total employees. Again, this is an uneducated guess but in the ballpark.

I hope that helps.

A couple quotes from the initiative:

(2)(a) A state excise tax is imposed on the privilege of operating
non-tribal electronic scratch ticket machines. The amount of this tax
shall be thirty-five percent of the net win from the operation of the
electronic scratch ticket machines operated by licensed non-tribal
gambling establishments.

Do the tribes pay a 35% excise tax from the net win off of the machines at the tribal casino's?

(b) Ninety-nine percent of the proceeds of the state excise tax
levied under this subsection, after state lottery commission
administrative expenses for operating the system, shall be deposited in
a new account hereby created called the Equal Treatment Equals Lower
Property Taxes Account in accordance with section 8 of this act. All
tax revenues in the account shall be used to reduce the subsequent
year's state property tax levy as provided in section 3 of this act.

Certainly makes sense to me. Sounds like folks are just trying to level the playing field.

Mike

Not level.... Large Canadian gambling companies are behind this... far bigger than the western WA Tribes. They are paying Eyeman something like 3 grand a week for his efforts.

So, the State gets a slice of the action... some might even call it a pay-off... in order to let the Canadian Companies take the rest of the money and carry it over the border.

What most people don't know is that the EXISTING non-Tribal Casinos are already set up this way. Jobs are here, yes. But the profits are being taken away from here... UNLIKE the Tribal Casinos.

Not level.

The Tribes pay No taxes. In my area the Tribe pays a small amount for fire Dept. only.

Pacificnw,

You've suggested several times that Canadian companies are behind the YES on I-892 campaign and that they (Canadians) are the ones who will really benefit if it passes. Do you have any credible evidence to back up that asssertion?

=================================
As we all know property taxes have gone up considerably in recent years.

If I-892 passes, it will lower the property taxes of every home/property owner in Washington state that normally pays them without costing the state's general fund a dime.

Regardless of a persons personal politics on the national level, as a citizen/property tax payer of Washington voting YES on I-892 is a no-brainer to me, I hope enough people feel the same on November 2nd.
=================================
http://justtreatusthesame.com/Default.htm

Lower Property Taxes

Vote “Yes” on Initiative 892

Ballot Title: Initiative 892 concerns authorizing additional "electronic scratch ticket machines" to reduce property taxes. This measure would authorize licensed non-tribal gambling establishments to operate the same type and number of machines as tribal governments with a portion of tax revenue generated used to reduce state property taxes.

TAXPAYERS PAID $1 BILLION IN PROPERTY TAXES IN 1980 - WE PAID $6.25 BILLION IN 2003

That six-fold increase is obscene and unsustainable. Property taxes will continue skyrocketing unless voters say "enough." I-892 substantially lowers property taxes for citizens without costing government a penny. It's a win-win revenue-neutral tax cutting initiative. Washington is the 7th highest taxed state in the nation (www.taxfoundation.org) - I-892 keeps us from hitting #1.

WORKING CLASS FOLKS, ESPECIALLY STRUGGLING FIXED-INCOME SENIOR CITIZENS, SHOULDN'T BE TAXED OUT OF THEIR HOMES

I-892 imposes a 35% user fee on electronic scratch ticket machines, using these new revenues - $400 million per year - to substantially lower property taxes. Currently, these machines aren't taxed. I-892 allows existing non-tribal establishments to compete with the tribes (who don't pay taxes), levels the playing field, and substantially lowers property taxes without costing government a penny.

THESE STATE-REGULATED, LICENSED, SMALL AND MEDIUM-SIZED TAXPAYING BUSINESSES AND NON-PROFITS SIMPLY WANT TO COMPETE

Opponents' main objection is I-892 "expands gambling." Wrong. I-892 only allows existing non-tribal establishments (NOT grocery stores or 7-Elevens - only gambling licensees with 21 and older customers) to compete with the tribes who already offer these same machines. So I-892 authorizes nothing new - it just gives the fixed number of people who play these machines a different place to go. I-892 doesn't "take away" from the tribes - it only requires them to compete.

"JUST TREAT US THE SAME" I-892 ADVOCATES A PRINCIPLE WE ALL BELIEVE IN: EQUAL TREATMENT

Government shouldn't discriminate or give preferential treatment to citizens based on their group affiliation. I-892 requires equal treatment of non-tribal and tribal establishments. That's fair. I-892 provides permanent funding, which doesn't exist now, for problem gambling. I-892 is a balanced, reasonable proposal which allows competition, levels the playing field, and substantially lowers property taxes ($400 million annually) without costing government a penny. Politicians never reduce taxes. Vote "Yes".

Erma Turner, Beauty Shop Owner, gathered 1781 signatures, Cle Elum Eric Phillips, Hiker, Label Company Owner, gathered 1702 signatures, Everett Andre Garin, Retired Post Office, Grandfather, gathered 1642 signatures, Vancouver Jack ***an, Retired Policeman, Retired Navy, Grandfather, campaign organizer, Spokane Mike ***an, Small Businessman, Community Leader, Father, campaign organizer, Spokane Tim Eyman, $30 Car Tab Guy, Taxpayer Advocate, Yakima / Mukilteo

REBUTTAL

Skyrocketing property taxes are obscene and unsustainable - I-892 provides long-overdue relief. Opponents have no alternative. They're only offering threats, lies, and scare tactics. I-892 substantially lowers property taxes ($400 million annually) without costing government a penny - it's revenue-neutral. Tribes are spending multi-millions from their government-protected monopoly to maintain their unfair advantage. I-892 means equal treatment, competition, and a more level playing field. I-892 provides permanent funding for problem gambling. Politicians never reduce taxes. Vote "Yes".

Just Treat Us The Same I-892, 11840 Renton Ave #110, Seattle, WA 98178 Phone: 425-493-8707, Website: http://www.JustTreatUsTheSame.com, Email: jakatak@comcast.net

The federal government, in keeping with a fine tradition going back 150 years, has now got the Indians addicted to gambling and revenues from gambling.

Way to go Uncle Sam!!!

I dont think that the Eyman initiative is going to provide any kind of reliable income to the state. Gambling income is at best a fluctuating source of revenue. I believe that can be a huge variance in gambling revenues. In 2002 lottery sales plummeted by 42 million dollars and the much vaunted mega millions only brought an additional 15 million into the state instead of the 32 million predicted. I would like to also add my additional .4 in saying that I don't want slot machines on every corner. One of our only hopes in the fight against the Boldt decisions might be the income produced by the casinos that might put the nets out of business because of the revenue from gambling. Here is a link that some might find informative

http://vote.wa.gov/guide/measures_arguments.tpl?key=1004

While I don't want to see slot machines on every corner either I don't think that is what this bill does. Reread the following

Given that statement how could they be on every corner? Just curious. The only way I see it would be to put them in pubs and taverns where people under 21 aren't allowed. I just don't see the problem with that. Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't done enough research on this to know more than what was posted here yet.

Rory - Apparently, when you refer to "credible evidence" you simply mean copies of info off a "YES on I-892" web site with the link to that site.

So, turn-around is fair play. Here are some statements and copies from the NO on I-892" web site followed by a link for those that dare to learn something about this poorly conceived initiative and run by a crook like Eyman.

_________________________________

FUNDED BY OUT OF STATE CORPORATIONS

Tim's "property tax relief" is a guise for the real intent of this initiative. It's industry backed, and industry funded. Tim Eyman is helping to promote it, and put his name on it, and for that, he recieved a $3,100 a week salary. Corporations from Canada and Nevada doled out most of the funds to buy this initiative onto the ballot- Great Canadian Gaming has given $160,000 already. This initiative gives them exactly what they want- what the state Legislature has denied them, for many years, with good reason- legalized slot machines in Washington State.

_________________________________

The companies that stand to benefit from I-892 are its backers- out of state, foreign gambling consortiums with a history of problems.

Great Canadian, I-892’s largest contributor at $72,000, previously invested in a cruise ship venture that soured, and is now involved in a lawsuit against Allegiance Capital of Texas, which partnered in the investment.

The cruise ship itself is now a floating den of prostitutes off the coast of Taiwan.

Besides the failed cruise ship venture, former employees of Great Canadian have stated in sworn depositions that casino managers overlooked loansharking at the company’s British Columbia casinos.

For reporting on the loansharking story, the CBC was faced with a Great Canadian lawsuit alleging libel.

Great Canadian is the meanest bully on the block of the gambling industry. It has aggressively pushed into Washington State, buying up four casinos and dumping thousands into an initiative that allows it to cash out on its investments at the expense of Washington’s communities.

Great Canadian reaffirmed its sinister interest in Washington State when it acquired the other half of partially owned subsidiary Evergreen Entertainment Corp. and raised its stakes by $5.3 million.

It obviously expects I-892 to pass and is hoping to reap the rewards of an initiative that is bad for the state but good for the company

Another large donor is Michaels Associates of Nevada, which was fined $50,000 by the Washington State Gambling Commission for lax oversight that resulted in a $250,000 embezzlement.

And yet another large donor, Washington Gaming, Inc., owned by the Iszley brothers, is currently more than $900,000 delinquent in state taxes.

I-892’s backers are dishonest, scrupulous companies with questionable reputations. They stand to gain from I-892 while Washington stands to lose.

I-892 is clearly a bad investment that the people of Washington State should avoid by marking “NO” on their ballots in November 2004.

http://www.permanentdefense.org/

___________________________________

Clearly, this is a bad idea. Don't get sucked into the fairy tale of savings on property taxes.... that's just "paying off" the State so that the big gambling companies can take money OUT of the State and YOU can have a slot machine in every tavern bowling alley and (probably) coming soon to a conveneince store in your neighborhood... just like Nevada. Won't that be great?

The initiative allows slot machines to be in locations where only adults 21 and older have access to them. This is the same basic requirement as for beer and wine.... why would the gambling companies NOT press to have them in every convenience store? Think about it.

No on I-892

I must have missed something here:

"Great Canadian, I-892's largest contributor at $72,000...." and "Anti-892, Puyallup Tribes at $1,497,835 and Tulalip Tribes at $1,00,000..." I guess with those kinds of numbers, those evil foreigners don't frighten me too much.

And in my area the tribe has even refused to contribute for fire protection.

The dichotomy between Tribal sovereignty and Tribal Super Citizenship is an issue that must be addressed.

I-892 attempts to address one aspect of that dichotomy.

The American principle of equal rights and opportunity demand the passage of I-892.


Please heed the advice of a great Indian leader… And vote YES on I-892

"I only ask of the government to be treated as all other men are treated... that the same law shall work alike on all men... with one sky above us and one country around us, and one government for all... that all people may be one people."
--Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce
(In a speech on January 14, 1879 to President Rutherford B. Haynes and a large gathering of cabinet members, congressmen, diplomats generals and others)

The Tribal Casinos don't have a choice about contributing to local emergency services... its in their compacts (contracts) with the State. You may be seeing some negotiation by that Tribe regarding what they are willing to do beyond the minimum as many Tribal Casinos provide more than the minimum to their local community emergency services.

And you didn't read far enough in my previous post. That same Canadian Company just acquired the majority share in ANOTHER company (U.S.) that owns many non-Tribal Casinos in western Washington and is ALSO contributing to the YES group. I am sure you know how big business works in this country... many are backed by foreign investors.

For a mere pitance to the State, a pay-off really, this inititive would allow a few "backer" commercial gambling companies to walk in and take the cream off... and then carry it to Canada, Nevada or wherever.

Bad idea all the way around.

"The dichotomy between Tribal sovereignty and Tribal Super Citizenship is an issue that must be addressed.

I-892 attempts to address one aspect of that dichotomy.

The American principle of equal rights and opportunity demand the passage of I-892."

EXACTLY

well said Plunker

I second what AuntyM says and would also like to add I think I remember reading about some of the Indian tribes being backed,bankrolled or loaned funding to start up their casinos by some of the corporations from Nevada,Canada(etc) that pacificnw is referring to either that or someones fudging on their fish count tickets.

Pacificnw, You are right on topic. It just seems that some of the folks here are so anti-tribe that anything seen as having a negative impact against them is seen as a positive. And to address the one comment about having a slot machine on every corner. When you figure every restaurant that hasd a lounge, every bowling alley, every tavern or bar...that's a lot or corners....

Fot the pittance gained by introducing a Nevada like atmosphere into the state, far more would be seen as profits by the gambling establishments, who mostly out or state and/or country.

I also dont understand the argument from the media (etc) of the one on every corner whats the difference if there is a slot machine or a pull tab machine on the counter of a business that already has gambling on their premises

I couldn't say it better than AuntyM...she has called me a bigot and racist in the past but that will not deter me from saying that the tribes do have a monopoly which is the "soveriegn nation" argument....We can't stop them because they are separate country.

The tribes like our country fine and use most of the services and splendors it provides but hide inside their "sovereign nation" when it suits them, when it pays off for them....They got half our fish by interpretation of treaties and were not satisfied so they got half of our shellfish by further and even more sympathetic interpretation of treaties. Not happy with that they turned to taking more than 50% of both and refused to accountable. Not satified with that they moved into casinoes for untold millions in profits from their newfound monopoly. And still today tribes are generally poor and plagued by alcoholism. The Muckleshoots who are swimming in cash from casino profits give hand outs to all tribal members to the tune of $2000 per month per person. Still poverty runs wild. Alcoholism is the highest per capita of any group in America. So who is getting rich? Nevada interests and the top dogs in the tribes. They can't and don't staff their casinos predominately with tribal members but with non indians.

I support !-892 for one simple reason and that is that it is one step in the right direction towards equality for all and not just for some. Not super equality for a few but simple equality for everybody.

The argument that says gambling is bad for people is correct but those who argue that line should also argue to close down the tribal casinoes before arguing to only allow tribal casinoes.

They have taken over our fisheries and soon will use their monopolistic gambling profits to buy our government as well. I would not put it past the politicians in Washington to give the tribes all our state lands so they don't get upset.

Will it ever stop? Probably when people get pissed enough.

By the way PACIFICNW...what tribe are you from?

I think Aunty M and Grandpa make very good points.



The slot machines are the biggest draw and by far the biggest money makers in casinos.

Why shouldn't non-tribal casinos be allowed to have slot machines to level playing field and be able to compete with tribal casinos?

The pie is more than big enough for everyone to get a piece.

If I-892 passes, it will lower the property taxes of every home/property owner in Washington state that normally pays them without costing the state's general fund a dime

If the Tribes paid taxes on the millions of dollars generated by slot machines, this wouldn't be be issue.

If the Tribes offered to use some of their considerable slot machine profits to lower my property taxes or just paid state, local or federal taxes period- this wouldn't be an issue.

If I were a Tribe member and received a dividend check eack month from casino profits I'd campaign and vote against I-892.

As someone who doesn't get a dividend check from Tribal casino profits each month, but pays increasingly higher property taxes I'm voting YES on I-892.

My Goodness!
I find myself agreeing with Rory, Grandpa and (dare I say) AuntyM.

According to the Public Disclosure Commission ...

A total of $5,930,695.37 has been donated towards defeating I-892.
The largest single contribution is $1,000,000.00 from the Tulalip Tribes.
Only $25,537.00, about 0.43% comes from other than the various Tribes.
$24,000.00 of that 0.43% comes from the Port Gamble Development Authority.


A total of $709,342.75 has been donated towards passing I-892.
The largest single contribution is $50,000.00 from Freddies Associates.
Only $25,000.00, about 3.52% comes from outside the USA by the Great American Gaming Corperation in Richmond BC.
The bulk of the contributions for I-892 are from local gambling establishments.


The proponents of I-892 are being out spent by more then 8 to 1. It is easy to see that the Tribal interests are spending heavily to preserve their monopoly on electronic gaming at the expense of any non-tribal competitors.

The Tribes are promoting racial priviledge and seeking to extinguish competition while the backers of the Initiative are seeking equal opportunity "in common with" the tribes.

Only through competition will the existing gaming operators be force to provide payoffs equitable with the standards set by the traditional gaming interests. The amount of winnings per dollar spent will be at least 75¢ in non-tribal establishments and the tribal interests will be forced to increase payouts to similar levels or risk losing market share.

Nearly 9¢ of every dollar spent at non-tribal establishment will go to a fund utilized for the reduction of Property Tax Levies. About 1¢ from every dollar of the 35% given to the state will be spent to treat problem gamblers.

- -- --- ---- --- -- -

For those interested, here is how it works...


A federal law, the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act (IGRA), defines the forms of gaming (gambling) which may be conducted by federally recognized Indian tribes. For most types of gambling, a tribe may conduct an activity if the activity is permitted anywhere within the state in which the tribal land is located. Under federal law, states must negotiate concerning any form of gaming permitted within the state, and the tribes are not subject to state law restrictions on the time, place, or manner of play. The federal law encourages states and tribes to negotiate compacts (agreements) defining the extent of tribal gaming, and provides appeal procedures if the tribe and state cannot reach agreement. A number of tribes based in Washington have negotiated compacts permitting the tribes to conduct electronic versions of “scratch ticket lottery” games. Electronic scratch ticket machines can be built to visually resemble slot machines, but their internal operation is significantly different from true slot machines. Each Washington tribe operating electronic scratch ticket lottery machines has a compact with the state specifying the number of machines which may be operated and otherwise defining how, when, and where such activities may occur. Tribal gaming revenue must be used for tribal government operations, providing for the general welfare of the tribe, promoting economic development, donations to charity, or funding operations of local government agencies.

The state levies a property tax for the benefit of the common school system. The statutory rate is $3.60 per thousand dollars of assessed value upon the assessed valuation of all taxable property within the state. The Department of Revenue is responsible for adjusting this rate in each county to reflect a statewide equalization of property tax rates. Existing law limits increases in the state property tax levy to the lesser of 101% of the highest amount levied in the three previous years or the inflation rate for personal consumption expenditures as determined by the U.S. Department of Commerce.


The effect of the proposed measure, if it becomes law:

This measure would authorize non-tribal gambling establishments to operate electronic scratch ticket gambling machines of the same type as authorized in state-tribal gaming compacts. The term “non-tribal gambling establishments” would include any establishment licensed by the Gambling Commission to conduct a gambling activity, or any establishment licensed by the Horse Racing Commission. The total number of machines authorized for the non-tribal establishments would be equal to the total number of machines authorized for tribes in state-tribal compacts.

The measure would direct the Lottery Commission to operate an electronic scratch ticket lottery in which non-tribal gambling establishments could participate through the installation of electronic scratch ticket machines (player terminals) in the businesses where they are authorized to conduct other gambling activities. The largest 40 operations conducting bingo games and the largest house-banked card rooms would be authorized to use 125 player terminals per licensed location. Other establishments would be allocated smaller numbers of terminals as described in the measure. The Lottery Commission would regulate the conduct of the lottery, including the allocation of terminals to individual licensees.

The measure would require that the prizes to the holders of winning tickets or shares in the lottery be at least 75% of the gross annual revenue from electronic scratch ticket games. The remainder of the revenue would be defined as the “net win.” Of this net win, 65% would be retained by the individual licensee. The remainder would be placed in an electronic scratch ticket account. Thus, at least 75 cents of each dollar of electronic scratch ticket revenue would be paid out as winnings, 16 cents could be retained by the licensee, and the remainder (about 9 cents) would be placed in the electronic scratch ticket account.

Of the money placed in the account, the Lottery Commission would be authorized to use amounts reasonably necessary to administer the electronic scratch ticket games, the central computer used in the games, and related accounting and auditing functions. After deduction of administrative expenses, the money in the electronic scratch ticket account would be further allocated as follows. One percent (1%) would be dedicated exclusively for distribution to a contractor to pay for services associated with problem gambling. The remaining 99% would be transferred to a special account in the state treasury named the “equal treatment equals lower property taxes account.” Beginning with the state property tax levy for collection in the year 2007, the total state property tax levy would be reduced by the previous year’s gross deposits in this account.

Play of electronic scratch ticket games would be restricted to players 21 years old or more. Electronic scratch ticket licenses could not be issued to convenience stores or other locations readily accessible to minors. Sales would be limited to establishments licensed to conduct other gambling activities, and establishments losing their gambling licenses would also lose their licenses to participate in the electronic scratch ticket lottery. The Lottery Commission would be authorized to establish rules governing the conduct of the electronic scratch ticket lottery.

Where the *&$@ are they getting that 400 million dollar figure? That's extremely optimistic. So...even with Plunker's well researched argument, the majority of the revenue still goes to the gambling establishment. Didn't anyone remember what a crackpit Eyman is? He has little if no credibility and plenty of his own anti government agenda.. I am sick of too much government too... but you can definitely count on me for a NO vote. Oh yeah...so how is this initiative going to stop government from raising our property taxes whenever they feel like it? Oh, that's right...the endless millions from the gambling addicts in the bars....whatever. Screw it, I'm sticking to the fishing topics....

Plunker - I-892 attempts to address one aspect of the dichotomy between Tribal sovereignty and Tribal Super Citizenship???? WOW... sorry but I-892 is about gambling, not any of that other stuff that bothers you.

Aunty - If you want to talk about who had a monopoly, lets talk about another sovereign... the State of Washngton. THEY are the ones that had a monopoly and it was called the LOTTERY. And the State was sure as heck not going to let the Tribes cramp their style. Fortunately, however, the federal government saw that inequity and passed the act allowing indian gaming.

fuzzy - see above

stlhdfishn - Tribes get financing to start up just like any business does. There might even be some that get their financing from a gambling company... but most get their financing from other Tribes... seems that get better deals that way, imagine that. Most Tribal Casinos are owned by the Tribe outright after several years. What you DON'T see with Tribal Casinos is a Candian gambling company OWNING 51% of a Casino as is often the case with non-Indian casinos.

goinfishin - Thanks for the supporting remarks.

grandpa - funny... (I am not a member of an Indian Tribe) but you must be getting rusty because you asked me that question before a few months back... seems to be your standard question for people who do not share your views about tribes. You might want to think of a new line for future use. Of course if I were the type that liked to fire off snappy come-backs I could ask you what Ayrian Nation Chapter you belonged to, right?

Rory - Well, I don't have any answers for you... it all seems to be about saving you 30 bucks on your property taxes no matter what... eh?

Plunker - "The bulk of the contributions for I-892 are from local gambling establishments"... And these are largely owned, partnered, backed, controlled, etc. by the Canadian and Nevada gambling corporations... like I said before.... at least the Tribes are backing their interests with their own money.

I meant to call Eyman a "Crackpot" .....I reely kin tipe. When I'm not goinig too fast......

pacificnw,

I-892 is about more than gambling. It is about equal opportunity and it is about putting some needed revenue in our tax coffers. Your racist attitude is blinding your ability to accept the abandonment of exclusionary regulations in favor of a level playing field. I-892 does nothing to harm the Tribes nor does it an any way restrict their ability to operate gaming establishments.

What it does do is allow non-tribal interests to participate, but in a position of underdog where they can compete only through offering a better gambling experience in order to woo the customers from the established casinos.

What else it does is add 9¢ of every dollar wagered in a non-tribal facility towards lowereing the property tax rate. Only time will tell how much that adds to each year.

I don't really see the point in nitpicking about Canadian ownership because no matter who the corporate or family owner of a gambling establishment might be 9¢ of every dollar wagered will go to the "Tax Fund", 75¢ will go to payoffs and most of the remaining 16¢ profit will be spent locally on wages, rent and utilities.

In any case here is a list of the contributors:

17001, INC., SEATTLE
AAA BOWLS UNLIMITED INC, SEATTLE,
ANJO ENTERPRISES INC, KENT
ATOMIC BOWL, RICHLAND
BARKERVILLE INC., SUMAS
BAYOU BISTRO, INC., TUKWILA
BEVL, INC, LIBERTY LAKE
BIG NEVADA, INC., TUKWILA
BILL TOWNSEND BAIL BONDS, CLARKSTON
BILLIE'S CASINO, LLC, RENTON
BIRCH BAY HOLDINGS, LTD, BLAINE
BLUE ROCK INC., LONGVIEW
BOB'S TAVERN, SHELTON
CACTUS MOOM ENTERPRISES, INC., EVERETT,
CADILLAC RANCH CASINO & ENTERTAINMENT, LONGVIEW
CARRIAGE SQUARE SPORTS BAR & GRILL, KENT
CASCADE LANES, LOUNGE AND CASINO, RENTON
CASINO CARIBBEAN, YAKIMA
CEARLEY MIKE D., CHINOOK
CELEBRITIES CASINO, KENNEWICK
CHESTER TAVERN, SOUTH BEND
CHIEF JOSEPH TAVERN, BRIDGEPORT
CLUB BROADWAY, EVERETT
COYOTE BOB'S CASINO, INC., AUBURN
CRAZY MOOSE CASINO II, MOUNTLAKE TERRACE
DER LITTEN HAUS, CLARKSTON
DINNER BELL, LOON LAKE
DOC'S TAVERN INC., OCEAN PARK
DRIFT ON INN ROADHOUSE CASINO, SHORELINE
EASTMONT LANES, EAST WENATCHEE
EASTSIDE CLUB INC., OLYMPIA
EEC GRAND CENTRAL CASINO, TUKWILA
EPSTEIN NORIEGA LLC, SHORELINE
EVERETT GAMING, INC., TUKWILA
EVERGREEN ENTERTAINMENT CORP, TUKWILA
EVERGREEN MEDIA, SANTA ROSA, CA
FRATERNAL ORDER OF EAGLES FOE, KELSO
FREDDIES ASSOCIATES, AUBURN
GAMING CONSULTANTS INC., TUKWILA
GOLDEN NUGGET HOLDINGS, LLC TUKWILA
GOLDIES RESTAURANT, INC., CLE ELUM
GREAT AMERICAN GAMING CORP, RICHMOND, BC
GREEN LAKE GRILL, SEATTLE
GREENWOOD, OHLUND & CO. LLP, SEATTLE
HAWKS PRAIRIE CASINO LLC, LACEY,
HILGER DANIEL J., TACOMA
HILLTOP BOWL, INC., ILWACO
HIRST INC., OROVILLE
HITCHIN' POST SALOON, FEDERAL WAY
INTERSTATE MERCHANT, SEATTLE
IRON HORSE CASINO LLC, TACOMA
J&P ASSOCIATES, SPOKANE
J. D. W. INC. - MGMT. GROUP, EVERETT
J. MICHAEL'S PUB & EATERY, REDMOND
JANETTE WILKS-GROSS, ILWACO
JTJ ENTERPRISES, INC., VANCOUVER, WA
KEGLERS' INC., EAST WENATHEE
LAKE BOWL, INC., MOSES LAKE
LAKESIDE CASINO, LLC, FIFE
LOUNGE LIZARDS, LLC, TUKWILA
MAC'S CIGAR STORE, ABERDEEN
MAGIC LANES, SEATTLE
MALTESE BAR & GRILL, KELSO
MICHELS DEVELOPMENT, LLC, SEATAC
MONTESANO LODGE NO. 1210, MONTESANO
MORGAN'S LBT, INC., LONG BEACH
MOUNTLAKE GAMING, INC., TUKWILA
MUIR JAMES J., RENTON
MYERS, INC., CLARKSTON
NEW SIREN TAVERN, INC., SEATTLE
ORONDO BOWLING INC, EAST WENATCHEE
PAIR O' DICE INVESTMENTS, LLC, EVERETT
PARADISE, INC., TACOMA
PASTIME TAVERN, CASTLE ROCK
PINNACLE GAMING, LLC, FEDERAL WAY
PIONEER BAR & GRILL, MOSSYROCK
PLAYERS & SPECTATORS, SPOKANE VALLEY
POINT DEFIANCE CAFÉ & CASINO, LLC, RUSTON
PORKY'S CAFÉ & LOUNGE, LONGVIEW
PRE, INC., TACOMA
R. S. PRAIRIE, INC., BRUSH PRAIRIE
RASCALS, INC., SEATTLE
REEF INC., POINT ROBERTS
ROCCO GAMING INC., TUKWILA
ROMAN CASINO, SEATTLE
ROYAL CASINO, EVERETT
SCOREBORD PUBS, INC., FEDERAL WAY
SEA HAG BAR & GRILL, ILWACO
SEATTLE'S HISTORIC TRIANGLE PUB, SEATTLE
SENYOR ADVENTURE INC, SPOKANE
SHAG NASTY'S INC., DEER PARK
SHED INC, SPOKANE
SHORELINE GAMING INC., TUKWILA
SKI INN, INC., ENUMCLAW
SPECIAL K PUB & GRILL, SPOKANE
SPORTSMANS TAVERN, INC., MOSES LAKE
STAR TAVERN, CHEHALIS
STAR, INC., CARSON
STONE HUT BAR & GRILL, WALLA WALLA
SUNSET BOWLING & RECREATION INC., SEATTLE
SWINGING DOORS, SPOKANE
T.B.I. LAND INC, TUKWILA
TACOMA CASINO LLC, LAKEWOOD
TANASSE M. A, YAKIMA
THE CEDAR INN, OLYMPIA
TIMMRECK TIM, ONALASKA
TRACYTON PUBLIC HOUSE, TRACYTON
TUKWILA LAND COMPANY LLC, TUKWILA
TYEE LANES, EVERETT
UNCLE MO'S SNAPPY INN, RENTON
VI AND GLYNN'S PUB INC., MARYSVILLE
VIKING SERVICES INC., SEATTLE
VINCE'S ITALIAN RESTAURANT, SEATTLE
VORMSBERG CORPORATION, TUKWILA
WAGON WHEEL ENTERPRISES INC, BENTON CITY
WARTHAUG INC, SPOKANE
WIZARDS CASINO, BURIEN
WORKSHOP BAR & GRILL, REDMOND

if I-892 will save me even one red cent in this over taxed state I'll vote for it!

Plunker - Who is it that has the racist attitude when I am want to keep gambling to a minimum and I want to keep what gambling there is in AMERICAN hands (Indians are Americans, did you FORGET that??? - obviously) and you want to keep a huge chunk of it in the hands of foreign investors. If you looked into it you would likely discover that half the YES "contributors" you list are controled by the Canadians and the other half are connected to big Nevada Gambling Companies or an investment company owned by some past Enron executive (for example). You are simply carrying over your sportfishing attitude towards the tribes into another arena. It is not about leveling the so-called playing field as you claim... you wear your predjudices on your sleve.


Bobert - I'll send you a red cent.

Plunker - Who is it that has the racist attitude when I am want to keep gambling to a minimum and I want to keep what gambling there is in AMERICAN hands (Indians are Americans, did you FORGET that??? - obviously) and you want to keep a huge chunk of it in the hands of foreign investors. If you looked into it you would likely discover that half the YES "contributors" you list are controled by the Canadians and the other half are connected to big Nevada Gambling Companies or an investment company owned by some past Enron executive (for example). You are simply carrying over your sportfishing attitude towards the tribes into another arena. It is not about leveling the so-called playing field as you claim... you wear your predjudices on your sleve.


Bobert - I'll send you a red cent.

sorry PNW if your remarks reprised an old accusation but you really do sound very much on the side of the tribes on this one and that is fine. Being against the excesses afforded the tribes does not make me a KKK member. It makes me similar to a big majority of fishers who are sick of the growing super citizenship afforded the tribes. I-892 is not that desirable but is one way to start levelling the playing field. Take a trip to indian country (if you don't already live there) and check out what the huge windfall of cash has done for the average tribal member. Not much. Sure there is a boom in construction...check out the crews...maybe a couple of tribal members standing around in hard hats for window dressing because the contract requires it but for the most part the workers are non-indian. I suspect if the tribes were on the same playing field as everyone else they might just excel all by themselves. The BIF hand out system has been a dismal failure and that's a fact.

grandpa - That's OK... it was your accusation and we all know about your accusations.

I think it is important to speak up for tribes, Many of you folks on this site need a different point of view to "balance" the discussion. There is too much inbreeding of the same old tired retoric.

I hope you are not a member of the KKK. That would be disturbing.

Don't agree that I-892 levels anything. Sorry to ,again, disappoint you but I don't live in Indian country... well, unless you think the entire region is Indian Country and then we all line there, right?

What has the cash generated from Indian Casinos done? Quite a lot actually. But I guess we have to agree to disagree on that. I ahve tried to explain above but that does not seemed to have worked.

You could be right about the Tribes being left on their own and excelling. And I think most Tribes would like to be self sufficient and are working in that direction. Passing this initiative won't help their purpose, will it?

No hard feelings... I admit to wanting to stir the pot. Different perspectives are always good, right? Just trying to challenge those that think they have it all figured out. There is more to it than most of us think... I happen to know a little about the subject so I thought I would share. Its not about getting people to agree with me... its about getting them to think past the "lines" on occassion.

PNW......Accusations or not your points of view always have been leaning towards an apologist's role for the tribes. Mine usually take the tribes to task for wanton abuse of our resources in the name of treaty rights. That's ok but we just need to see which axe you are grinding. Your connection to the tribe is not obvious but it is there somewhere. That's fine but you should admit it so your opinions can be understood with the appropriate grain of salt.

I suspect !-892 is something of a weapon to knock the tribes down a notch rather than a real serious tax reduction measure. We cannot seem to negotiate "fair play" so maybe hardball is in order? We have an explosion of gambling in this state now so saying opposing I-892 will stop that expansion is somewhat of a fantasy. Without I-892 all the expansion will contunue to come from indian country.

foreign companies take money out of this state and ountry all the time.but they put money back into it with increased jobs and improvements to their investments.
I am for this initiative as I feel that everyone should have the same level playing field.
Equal opportunity for one and all............................Fishy.

Grandpa - Yes, your accusations are pretty well know... I have to give you that much.

You may think that I take an apologist's role for the tribes. Nothing could be further from the truth... but you probably knew that. My comments are meant to balance the seemingly uninformed and biased discussions about Tribes that normally occupy this site... pure and simple. Someone has to offer steerage corrections once in a while or the discussions on this board just keep turning right and right and right until they auger themselves into the dirt... as we have witnessed so many times.

Take the Tribes to task? Hardly. You are a complainer, thats all.

No axe to grind on my part... except offering all sides of a story, especially if not reflecting the popular opinion here. Again, I admit to a tendency to stir the pot.

There is a LOT of abuse going on with our fisheries resources. You like to point to Tribes as the sole source for those injustices. I know many, many cases where I can agree that Tribal fishers have abused the resource. But I see an absence of comments about non-Indian abuses from you... where is the balance? You seem like a relatively smart person. Perhaps you begin to see my point. The absolute lack of regard for the resource dispayed in a fishery like the Quilcene River "sport" fishery is a great example. Hence, my earlier comments.

The only grain of salt or anything else that my opinions need to be taken with are a grain of fairness... and to offer the "other side of the story" that is so often missing in so many topics brought up by you and others.

There are many that want to see the Tribes "hit" so they will grab this initiative and use it as a weapon... that is completely the wrong reason to vote YES for I-892.

Again, just one person's opinion and attempt to "level this playing field."

pacificnw,

You continue to play the "race card" but The truth of the matter is...

The Boldt decision affirmed the tribal right to fish "in common with".

The Indian Gaming Regulatory Act provides a tribal right to conduct gambling operations "in common with".

In accord with the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act a tribe may conduct an activity if the activity is permitted anywhere within the state in which the tribal land is located.

I-892 affirms that which the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act provides.

Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce said, "I only ask of the government to be treated as all other men are treated... We ask that the same law shall work alike on all men... with one sky above us and one country around us, and one government for all... that all people may be one people." and I agree.

I-892 provides for "equal rights" not "special rights".

That is why I and most concerned citizens will vote YES on the initiative.

I-892 will "level this playing field."

"Take the Tribes to task? Hardly. You are a complainer, thats all. "

I am a complainer and you are a fair and balanced, objective muse taking all sides into acccount? baloney

What we have here is, failure to communicate...

Unlike your statement... "fair and balanced, objective muse taking all sides into acccount"... what I actually SAID was that I wish to explore the other side of the range of opinions expressed on this site.... because I think these DISCUSSIONS need the balance. And I actually INTENDED on not being objective. I am simply trying to turn things around on you with the hopes that you might see some reasoning other than your own. I admit that I have failed, in your case and in the case of Plunker and probably others. No mas, no mas.

I admit that I am not always right. But I sure wish I had that "king of knowledge" and the feeling of certainty that I was right all the time like you. Must be nice.

I don't want to get into the tribal-rights or the gambling discussion. I just have one question. How is this not a tax? To be honest, I am a littlre ashamed to admit that I knew almost nothing about this initiative until I read this thread (unfortunately I still don't know very much about it). It never occured to me that it was supposed to be a tax-reduction measure. I'm sorry but that is kind of a joke.

This will not "reduce" taxes; it will only shift the tax burden from one group to another, from relatively well off property owners (a class that includes me) to poor saps who don't know well enough not to throw their money away gambling (most of whom, statistics show, tend to be less educated, less well off). Maybe that's fair enough, whatever, but please don't call this "revenue-neutral" tax relief (whatever the hell that means).

PS: I think someone needs to let Tim Eyeman know about the tax tyranny the people of Finland have to live with, so he can go there and help them for a little while.

PNW,
Do tell us how much you know about Tribal Casinos, their operation, and profit distributions.
Then take the information you have on the tribe and compare them to I-892 supporters.

I'll give you one example to start with and that is Federal and state taxes. Anything and everything the tribes purchase is non taxable.
Where can you purchase a Steak and Lobster dinner for $14.95?

If Lowry hadn't had his head up his butt this wouldn't even be an issue.

Back when the state was fighting with the tribes on slot machines, the tribes offered to pay 35% taxes on the revenue generated by the slots. Dumb ol Mike didn't see any sense in that , so the Indians put the slots in anyways.

People will gamble anyway, so lets let them do it here instead of going to canada, or out of state. Saying that there will be more gambling is not true, I will not run out and start gambling because there are machines in some of the places that I frequent.to
Lets vote this in and take the money that is offered to our state to reduce the traffic,or meds for seniors,or whatever.I thought this was the land of the free, If they want gamble then let them...................Fishy.

The intiative provides for $400 million per year in property tax reduction which is a 27% cut. Sure not everyone owns a home but so many do that I would say it should be a very popular decision. If the tribes were willing to trade their failing net fisheries for the gambling monopoly I might consider voting against I-892.

Auntie:

I'm not against gambling, and I have plenty of vices. On issues like this, I'm pretty much a live and let live kind of guy. Besides, I didn't want to get into that. I was just trying to make the point that if you're collecting money to fund the government, that's a tax, no matter what you call it or where/how you collect it.

which brings me to you grandpa. Sure it's relief for property owners, but it's collecting the same money from someone else, which I guess is what Eyeman means by "revenue neutral." So in the long run it's not reducing the overall tax bill, just switching the burden from one group to another (though I do assume plenty of property owners gamble). I own a house and I have to pay taxes on it, so what the hell: who wouldn't like a break? But if all I'm doing is handing the bill to someone else, I feel a responsibility to at least acknowledge that's what's happening.

But like I said, I still have to educate myself on this one. Who knows? Maybe I'll vote yes.

good points Ramon...The state already collects many taxes from one group and passes on the services or savings on to other groups. Hotel Motel taxes and such to pay for stadiums is one example. State lottery is another. Property taxes pay for schools and those taxes are collected from people who do not have kids in school.

Initiative I-892 is not my choice of the best way to lower property taxes. Spending reductions and deflation of state government would be a couple of other ways to lower taxes.

The unique twist on this initiative is that it will collect taxes from a monopoly that does not pay taxes for running a big business and making a profit in this state by diverting business away from their non tax paying operations to operations that will pay taxes. Yes I agree with Ramon that this bounty to lower property taxes is another form of tax or levy if you will.

When gamblers frequent non-tribal casinos they leave money behind and a bunch of it is collected by the state in the form of taxes. So the state already takes from gamblers and gives to others. Why not take taxes from ALL such businesses in a fair and equal manner?

I assume we can't tax indian country but we can compete with them AND pay our taxes too which the tribes do not do. The books are not open for all to see when it comes to tribeal casinos. Perhaps if we knew just how little goes back to help the average tribal member compared to what is siphoned off by the big shots and out of state gambling interests we would be so shocked we would all vote for I-892?

Just like the tribal take of fish and shellfish we have to accept the tribes accounting with no oversight or audit by anyone outside. That is really getting old.

I try to understand what I vote for, it is hard sometimes to get all the facts, and some times I vote without all the facts as I suspect most do. And sometimes I vote on issues and postions in a manner that favors my lifestyle and family.

Grampa, do you really think taking gambling share away from the tribes will weaken their ability to lobby fishing issues? I do not, they still will have plenty of money for that.

Will I get a break on my property taxes? That will be a first, not sure I would see them actually go down, surely the county will assess me higher anyway.

What I need to remember when I vote is this initiative is about gambling and the allocation of it's profits towards tax relief. It has nothing to with fishing.

undecided on I-892....

Grandpa:

I-892 will do nothing to lower property taxes. That is just a "hook" to get the naive to support this turkey.

I-892 is about money -- profits for the sponsors and their shill, Tim Eyman -- period!

I realize that Eyman probably skipped his classes on Civics and US Government while he was partying it up at Wazzou, but I would remind all that we do not have a democracy in this country, but rather a system of representative government.

Like or not, we elect public servants to draft, debate and pass legislation. Then we have an executive to sign or veto said legislation. Finally there is a judicial branch to consider the constitutionality of the signed law. This is called checks and balances, and it is a crucial and intended mechanism in our U.S. and washington State consititutions.

Yes, there is a provision for initiatives and direct democracy that allows these ballot initiatives. But our Founding Fathers intended this to be a last resort, and one used only when all legislative efforts had failed.

Drafting one crappy piece of garbage after another and circumventing the legislative process entirely by foisting it on an uninformed electorate is worse than bad government in my book. It is almost treasonous!

If Tim Eyman really wants to influence public policy in this state, he should work within the system and run for office. He was revealed the last time to be both a liar and a profiteer. Why anyone would ever now support him or his efforts is beyond me.

Any ballot inititative that carries Eyman's endorsement while he gains financially from it should be rejected on principle by the voters of this State. If the idea behind it has merit, find a legislative sponsor to draft and introduce a bill. Then maybe we can debate the issue on its merits.

Tim Eyeman and David Goldstein are on KVI 570 AM 'Commute with Carlson' debating the I-892 levy right now (4-5 pm 10/12)

Shorezinger, profiteer, liar, you have just discribed most politicians. They will lie cheat and steal to get what they want. Working within the confines of the law? The initiative process is within the confines of the law and if someone can do that and find a way to profit from it, then I say go for it. As for this initiative, I am all for it,this is the land of the free, and if (as you put it) the uniformed, want to gamble, then I say let them do it here. In washington state, at least that way the tax revenue stays here.
My only hope is that if this passes, the policos find a way to use this revenue to enhance the quality of life here in washington...............................Fishy.

interesting how 15+ anti I-892 ad's and a buttload of pms murrey ads are aimed at the the dinner time consumer without funding from opposing parties???
hmmm?
maybe ? it's a KIRO thing?

vote commie?
vote greenie?
vote libertarian:)
just rethink voting status quo
same scat
different handle
it is time for a change
please rethink the normal republicrats vs the destruct o "demo" crats

why?
cause its the same scat
just a slightly dfiffering oder

...does this mean we can put political posts back up on the main board or is this just posted in here so some fresh new voices can bash the tribes?

bashing the tribes? must be racist rants right?


no way...just observations concerning lack of accountability and special status gone overboard.

By the way to the previous rants about how this intiative will not effect property taxes shows an incredible lack of common sense as most of the rest of the post does.

We wouldn't see so many initiatives if Washington State government did not ignore the voters so many times.

some of what has been written here could be viewed as tribe bashing, yes. racist?...why those are your words....

i thought political topics got sent over to the 'you, aunty, elvis and me' forum so those with sensitive eyes didn't have to look at them?

Why start the thread here is what I am asking you g'pa? Is it because you know there is so much anti-tribe sentiment amongst the general poulation of this board, certainly you couldn't fail to have people lining up to support anything that would affect the tribes negatively? No? Given the only crossover between 'fishing' and 'gambling' is the tribes, I can see no other reason to post this particular off topic thread on the main fishing board.

where is slabquest anyway to tell us all to talk fishing or shut up?

OOPS....I never even gave it a thought that this topic is on the WRONG board. Actually I don't even like this initiative but wanted to see why some would support it. Whether it would be the property tax side or the anti-tribe side. And , oh yes, Slab does lecture me daily.

This post is relevant to fishing and sport fishing interests.

If I-892 fails on November 2nd and the tribes continue to have ALL of the of the un-taxed millions from slot machine revenue, it's very naive to believe that the tribes wouldn't eventually use some of their vast fortune from one monoploy (Electronic Gaming) to lobby for an increasingly larger and less restricted/verified piece of the Washington State fishing pie.

Finally, something that Rory and I agree on!
All men are created equal, that should mean that every one of us gets to have the same opportunities. Gambling,fishing,even stupid behavior is something that every one should have equal access too.
Intelligent choices are the matter of the individual. If you don't want to gamble,then don't...............Fishy.........

Aunty, I would never try to lecture Grandpa about anything. He is a hard headed Scandanavian after all.

Now ED....I do listen sometimes...Even when you are misguided I do listen. Being a full blooded Norwegian saves me a lot of money on haircuts...$1 per side.

By the way saying that I-892 will expand gambling is kind of silly since if it fails gambling will still expand but only on the Rez where no taxes are paid and boat loads of money are siphoned off to lobbyists to buy their influence in the halls of government. Right now no one wants to touch their issues with 10' pole that is for sure.

Absentee Ballots were sent out today
------------------------------------------------------------
Study the issues and exercise your right as an American citizen to participate in representative government.
------------------------------------------------------------


INITIATIVE TO THE PEOPLE 892

Initiative Measure No. 892 concerns authorizing additional "electronic scratch ticket machines" to reduce property taxes. This measure would authorize licensed non-tribal gambling establishments to operate the same type and number of machines as tribal governments, with a portion of tax revenue used to reduce state property taxes. Should this measure be enacted into law?

____YES ____NO

CUT THE BULL****>>>>>>>

Say it .......

>>>>>VOTE YES<<<<<<<

Vote "NO" and send this scam down the tubes like most of the other Eyman scams.

Your right PNW lets let one group of people continue to have exclusive rights that the rest of the community does not get to have. That sounds like the country I sure don't want to live in. If we are all created equal, then we should all be treated equally!
I could care less if you want to give up your rights, but I'll be d@mned if you think I'm giving up mine....................Fishy.

To all who are voting yes on this.... if there was no provision to lower property taxes would you still be voting for this?

If so, you are saying your vote can be bought on this gambling issue.

Could not have said it better myself. Eyman and the gambling corps. backing him are getting your YES vote (right?) on the cheap.

Only in America.

It's not a 'gamble' to level the playing field.

I-892 provides for "equal rights" not "special rights".

That is why I and most concerned citizens will vote YES on the initiative.

I-892 will "level this playing field."

Isn't equality something that benefits America?

PNW, are you a tribal member, or do you work for a tribe, because as most of the voting public see's it this is an equal opportunity for Established gaming places to have the same machines that the tribal casino's have. So it just stands to reason that if you are against this initiative then your a tribal member, work for a tribe, or just don't understand the initiative.
Nows your chance to come clean, which one is it?........................Fishy.

Something smells - Guess you have not been reading the other posts on this, eh?

Repeat, not a tribal member.

Repeat, I do know a little something about the non-Indian casino business, who owns them, who stands to profit from passage of this initiative, and who is paying Eymen $3,000+ per week to run this crazy campaign.

Repeat, out of country and out of State gambling companies are behind this and for a measly 35% payoff, this State (with passage of the initiative) will selll the slot machine rights to them and you will have them in every tavern, bowling alley, lounge, restaurant and... coming soon to a 7-11 near you. So we can be just like Nevada.

Level the playing field? Oh man.

If you apply this "level the playing field" logic to tribal fishing rights, wouldn't it also be logical to issue gillnet permits to any citizen who wants one?

hey chief.....The initiative , as explained in the official voters pamphlet, states that the number of devices will be limited to the same number allowed the tribes by the state. Right now there are not slot machines on every corner and there won't be if this initiative passes. The voters guide spells out in clear detail who will be able to install the machines. You've got the 35% tax right. The voters guide goes into much detail about the small administrative charge and tells about the money all going to reduce property taxes.

As far as out of state interests being involved you make it sound like the tribes are not beholding to out of state interests as well which is not so.

PNW, big deal, like your the only one with this knowledge.I guess we should all genuflect when you speak. I also know a little about tribal gaming and that they do not have to tell any state authority what or how much they make. At least with these other slot machines we will know that we are going to get 35% and we can monitor that to make sure, and let us not confuse the FACTS, No slot machines in any place that is not an establisher gaming place already, so stop telling people that they are going to be put into chuchy cheese's and your kids roller rink, get it straight before you run off at the yap!

yessir....I just saw one of those ads the indians spent $5 million on.....a real homemaker lady pleading to vote no so our kids don't have to see slot machines. Then some footage of kids fresh out of school peering the the window at people playing slot machines . Yessirreee we will have slot machines in 7-11s, schools, churches, day care centers, on the buses....yada yada yada

pnw..tell your braves that we are sick of super citizenship for them at the expense of every other citizen of this state. Join the 21st century and compete in the marketplace with wveryone else on the same playing field and PAY TAXES...

Grandpa, isn't is amazing that when someone that doesn't know what the heck they are talking about, gets called on it, they duck and run. Not just a few days ago PNW was doing alot of running off at the mouth, guess it just goes to show us all that there are some real blowhards on this board!

from one blowhard to another....

I-892 would give the EXISTING small businesses that ALREADY HAVE GAMBLING the right to compete on a level playing field with the tribes. Same EXACT number of machines the tribes are allowed would be allowed to their competitors and no more.

BIG DIFFERENCE: THE TRIBES DO NOT PAY TAXES!!!!! THE REST OF THE SMALL BUSINESSES WHO OFFER GAMBLING DO AND THEY PAY B&O TAXES.....THE TRIBES DO NOT!!!

The new initiative if it cbecomes law will impose a 35% tax on the profits from these new machines ONLY ON THE NON-INDIAN BUSINESSES.....

THE TRIBES STILL WILL NOT PAY TAXES ON THEIR MILLIONS IN GAMBLING PROFITS.

The tribes are making so much tax free cash that is not openly accounted for that they are literally buying our state government in Olympia...Think about that....Soveriegn nations using all of our services and then some that we pay taxes to provide. Sovereign nations using the bonanza of cash from gambling we allowed them a monopoly on to alter our government and buy influence while PAYING NO TAXES AT ALL.......

I-892 is no scam as PNW (chief three feathers) tried to pass off on us. It is the only measure I know of to attempt to level the playing field....To treat us all the same. The tribes control our fish and shellfish which are disappearing fast...soon they will control our government. And last but not least, gambling will continue tremendous growth in our state to the benefit of the members of sovereign nations and not to the benefit of the citizens of the state.

Only the 9th Circuit court of appeals could interpret the original treaty language and come up with mile long Indian casinos and endless nets draped everywhere.

I read the other day that the House of Reps has passed a "resolution" to break up the 9th Circuit (ban the pledge) court, mainly because people are sick of their rulings.

Grandpa, calm down I was speaking of PNW. If you read back you and I are on the same page,I was just pointing out that some OTHER people run their yap, and don't have clue as to what is really going on!SO don't take offense toward me on this one, I am sure that we shall disagree plenty in the future...........................Fishy.

I know what you were saying....just gotta figure out my sick sense of humor sometimes

After reading this whole thread I have to wonder how many people have actually READ the proposal??? http://www.secstate.wa.gov/elections/guide/text/892.pdf

Especially interesting is the following
So tell me how you will see these machines in a 7-11? Also think on that commercial that was talked about above?

I don't care a hoot about gambling. Sure I occasionally buy a lotto ticket and I might on the rare occasion drop a buck or two into one of these proposed machines but that would be it. I sure like the idea of taxing these machines though. I don't like the idea of granting more gambling licenses though. Of course I don't see how this bill actually allows that. So I still have some studying to do on this.

If the tribes and all of you protectionists out there want to stay with the status quo, then perhaps you should start an initiative to get the tribes to be accountable and pay taxes on their take at their casinos............Fishy.

Today in the mail I got a fancy and expensive looking flyer from the No on I-892 folks AKA the indian tribes...Part of the $5 million they are pouring into the campaign to defeat it.

Here are some of the quotes from it that make me sick considering who it comes from:

Gambling will bring more crime, drugs, gangs and violence to our neighborhoods. ( Is this the case with the indian casinos in our neighborhoods already?)

I-892 legalizes "electronic scratch ticket machines". Electronic scratch ticket machines are video slot machines. (DUH!!! When the tribes brought these machines to their casinos they called them the same thing...AND they have them now AND they are already legalized BUT only for the indians.)

And my favorite: " We do not believe in gambling in our neighborhoods" BS!!! They are the only ones with these machines and they must believe in them as long as they have a monopoly.

And of course as we have said before this monopoly bring in hundreds of millions of dollars and it is ALL tax free.

The tribes control your fisheries now....Do you want them to control our government next? The millions they are throwing at this erroneous campaign is just a peak under the tent....Watch if they defeat this initiative and see if they don't expand gambling that they supposedly oppose.

VOTE YES on I-892 and generate hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes to lower property taxes and level the playing field for once.

The tribes are able to operate under the same protection provided by the US government, they should have to pay into the same tax structure. Voting this initiative in will let the Established gaming establishments have the same advantages of these machines as the tribes,nothing more, not 7-11's, nor the local bowling alley. Just already established gaming places, anything other than a yes vote on this is a vote for continued racism and protestionism.............Fishy.

I've gotten two of those glossy No on I-892 mailers now warning me about the 'Evils of Gambling' (the little kids trike outside the the little store with the neon 'slot machine' sign in the window was a nice touch).

Where were the 'Concerned Moms Against Gambling' commercials and mailers warning us about the evils of gambling then?
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If passed, I-892 would allow non-tribal casinos to compete with the tribes (who pay ZERO in taxes) and will use 35% of the proceeds to lower every home owners property tax in the state of Washington.

If the Tribes had paid taxes on the BILLION + $'s a year they make on the slots this wouldn't be an issue.

If the Tribes had tried in the past to block their OWN gambling expansion--their argument against I-892 would have some crediblity.

The fact is that when they stand to profit, the Tribes are all for gambling and their UN-TAXED monopoly on it--But when they may have to share a piece of the HUGE gambling profit they're now 'Concerned' about gambling expansion.
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The Tribes have so much money to brain wash the masses with mis-leading propaganda like "Concerned Moms Against Gambling' that the initiative may not pass.

I hope enough people look past their slick and mis-leading propaganda and realize that the only thing the Tribes are 'Concerned' about with respect to slot machine gambling is keeping their monopoly on it.


Vote YES on I-892

The propaganda put out by the tribes against this initiative is TOTAL HYPOCRISY. When tribes expand their gambling activities, it's a good thing. When nontribal establishments seek to provide similar opportunities for their patrons the same activity becomes frought with peril and unsurmountable problems. This is just an elaboration of the old "your's stinks, mine doesn't" theme, and is reason enough to support I-892.

Passing I-892 will increase competition amongst all casino/gambling establishments. That's good for the consumer. I've never wagered a cent in a WA casino, but I have enjoyed some fine dining at several of them. If competition brings $2.99 steak and eggs to a casino menu, I know where I'll be going for breakfast.

I'll vote "Yes" on I-892 because I think nontribal gaming establishments need help if they are to operate profitably alongside untaxed and unaccountable tribal casinos. I'm betting the tribes can operate leaner; they'll still have all the tax breaks in their favor, even if I-892 passes.

With so much to gain for the tribal big shots and their handlers from Vegas it is no wonder they spent more on the phony campaign against I-892. Their smear campaign has not sign anywhere near it that it comes form the indian tribes and the indian casinos. All you see are kids and concerned moms and dads....

Oh I almost missed the full page in the flier with a Latino family..mom, dad, a little boy and a little girl..they are READING THE BIBLE and the punch line says: " Protect our families, our future". Like most of the things the tribes do this is driven by greed..the same sick greed they use to control our fisheries. Hard to believe we have been so blind as to let them into the hen house.

By the way, by supporting the tribal monopoly on gambling you are also helping with their control of our government. A case in point is the upcoming legislative session. Fishing issues are being formulated right now to be submitted to the legislature. Virtually every legislator will not get involved with any fishing cause that includes anything to do with the tribes or goes against anything the tribe wants. Why? Guess who is spreading big money around Olympia? You got it. The tribes. Where do they get all the millions of dollars? From the gambling in our neighborhoods they supposedly oppose. Tax free millions used to shape the way we live in this state. We pay the taxes yet increasingly we cowtow to the tribes who pay nothing and take, take, take.

I just found out something very interesting, I live in north marysville, where they want to put the Nascar track, well there is going to be a community forumn, they have invited the community,civic leaders and all the locals for imput. they have also invited the local tribes for their imput and to make sure that it complies with environmental impact statements put into place by the legislature. Now I find out that the Tulalips never did and environmental impact statement for the casino,the wal-mart, home depot, or for the new outlet mall going in less than a mile from my house. Yeah we sure live in a country where we are all created equal...........NOT!
Vote I-92 in and level some of the playing field!........Fishy.

I know it is an old gripe but ...if the tribes are a sovereign nation and don't have to abide by the rules and laws of our nation then let's put walls around their "nations" and set up border crossings. A toll booth for them to come into our nation to help support all the stuff we give them.

I would vote for any legislator in washington state that had the nads big enough to call out the tribes in this state. I will be glad to see that mealy mouthed Grid-Locke gone.....................Fishy.