You can bet on one thing King... you know nothing about me. Yet you make this huge assumption... well, after all " You are the King".. How can anyone argue with that ??? Thats O.K, its fun reading your narrow view of the world. Bible expert, gun expert, consitutionalist.... Is there anything you don't know ???

...which is exactly why you should question the church at every opportunity.

..and pp...

i dodged nothing. I both answered your question AND pointed out how idiotic it is.

Should we do an in depth examination of what science has taught us that is correct and what the church has taught us that is correct? Such a comparison could be pretty embarassing for the church.

I studied the bible quite intensely for about fifteen years. I find it hilarious that on the one hand we are supposed to interpret the bible literally , the 'the bible says so' stance as it were. On the other hand we are supposed to interpret the bible liberally, the 'jonah was an allegory' stance.

Perhaps they shoud print the parts that should be interpreted literally in green and the allegorical parts in red just so the average bible reader knows what they are supposed to believe when......

My favorite thing about having this conversation with 'true believers' is that if you question those interpretations, whichever they are, they invariably come back with 'you just don't understand the bible.' No matter how sound your logic, no matter how sound your line of reasoning. No matter how utterly hypocritical you make them look. No matter how grounded in biblical knowledge, much like the conversation where I pointed that the bible says 'kill homos' and all the religious whackos dodged the subject so as not to appear as extreme as they really are.

Clinging too tightly to religious beliefs without question is a sign of weakness. Not questioning authority is a sign of weakness. Not standing up for what you believe is right is a sign of weakness.

The church is as full of weak minded hypocrites as secular society....IMO, even more so, that's what leads people to the church in the first place.

Again especially for you Rory and pp...

...the methodists recently voted to allow gay pastors within their ranks. Can dubya continue to be anti-gay and remain in good standing with HIS church?

I'll bet your brain is hurting over that one....let me answer for you....

Yes, for the very same reasons that Kerry can remain in good standing with his in spite of his differing beliefs.

Total non-issue and quite nearly the most ludicrous question rory has posted to date. Stay tuined though, I'm sure he'll outdo himself before too long..........

"...the methodists recently voted to allow gay pastors within their ranks. Can dubya continue to be anti-gay and remain in good standing with HIS church?"

Based on your view of churches it might make sense. It might pay to do a little study on the matter and see what biblical scholars have to say about various churches. Look up the word apostate for starters and it will take you to the seven churches and the letters written by Christ to the seven churches. All modern churches are born from the seven. If I wanted you to think poorly about something or someone would I give you the best references to check out or would I give you poor examples? With religon it is not hard to find bad examples like with most things in life. If you decide to base your entire opinion on bad examples on churches that have fallen away from the word of Christ have you put the best effort you can into making an informed decision?
I do not have a fondness of modern churches and the study of their doctrine is very important if one plans to join. Like anything in life you have to do your homework.


If one was to only taste fast food would their opinion on the cusine of the the world be valid? No but it's OK with religon for some reason. I think that reason is someone is looking for an easy out.

Unlike you elvis I don't need to look up most words over six letters long. Furthermore I know how to use those words in the right context.

...the easy way. Haha...you mean like "i hates me some gays cuz'n the bible tells me to'?

yeah, real critical thinking skills applied there.... :rolleyes:

No elvis, seeking faith outside the lines is the hard way. Its the difference between coloring in a coloring book and drawing from a blank page. Its those that accept what the church tells them to unflinchingly, without applying their own thought processes to those teachings, that are taking the easy way.

"My favorite thing about having this conversation with 'true believers' is that if you question those interpretations, whichever they are, they invariably come back with 'you just don't understand the bible.'..."

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For starters, why do yoy say Bush is anti-gay?
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I'm not a methodist and I don't profess to be a spokesman for their denomination of Christianity---But I did find this statement on their (United Methodist Church) website:

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Those that are hostile towards God and the Christians who they suggest are foolish for believing in Him often quote the book of Leviticus in an effort to try and discredit their belief system.

The book of Leviticus is from the Old Testament. The Old Testament is the 'Old Law' and believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior are not bound by 'Old Law'. The New Testament is the guideline (Law) for Christians who are born again and are now 'new creatures in Christ'.
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That being said, according to the New Testament; All sexual relations outside of the Marriage of a man and a women are considered sin.

According to the new law it is just as sinful for a man to have heterosexual relations before/outside of marriage as it is for a man to engage in homosexual relations. They're both just as bad in God's eye--That's why you never hear me preaching 'fire and brimstone'.

My pastor says that we are to love the sinner and hate the sin.

I'm glad he feels that way because I've certainly sinned in my life.

We all sin, we all fall short of the glory of God.

It's by God's grace and the blood Christ shed at Calvery that the sins of Christians are washed away and forgiven.

People that have truley accepted that cleansing and the 'Peace that passes all understanding' that comes along with it want to share it with others---Regardless of how they sinned and have fallen short of the Glory of God.

I bet if you asked Bush how he felt about salvation for sinners (regardless of how they sinned) he'd tell you the same thing.

The Koran actually does mention beheading as the best way to kill the infidels because it will strike the most fear into the hearts of the rest of the non believers. Like I said, these people believe this and practice this TODAY...I know there are a handful of nuts out there who think God told them to kill abortion doctors and such but there are millions of Muslims who swear allegiance to Islam today.

H20,

You are such a simple child it is a shame that children have children. .

"No elvis, seeking faith outside the lines is the hard way." How can you say that if you have never tried the other way?
That is like saying that living according to the law is the easy way and being a criminal is hard. No waterbrain believing and living to a standard is much harder than taking the easy way out by making your own rules and own reality.

..the easy way. Haha...you mean like "i hates me some gays cuz'n the bible tells me to'?

Proof of you bias and ignorance. Show me one passage on phrase in the bible that says we should hate gays. As always you can never put your money where your mouth is. You take the worst sterotype of any religion and prop it up as proof that you are right to believe what you do. That makes you worse than even worse than the gay hating pusedo Christians. They do it because they are misguided or ignorant you do it purely from hate.

ok, not hate....KILL!

..and you truly are comprehension impared.

I've stated time and time again that I was raised christian and remained so until well past my teen years....

...to say that I haven't tried the 'other way' is asinine and ign'nt. I put down my coloring book and picked up a blank page.

...but those ARE the sorts of comments we've come to know and love from you elvis.

....ahhhhh, the bliss.

Ahhh yes the angry child a rebel against all the wrongs done by the parents. Great place to be at your age. I will asuume you are referenceing this passage

"LEV 20:13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."

Someone raised as a Christian should know that "Death" in this context means spiritual death not literal death. Because we know that there are 4 rules of interpretation we cannot take this passage literally. There are a multitude of passages that show 4 things that conflict with a literal translation

1. God loves all people. 2. God hates all sin equally. 3. Homosexuality is a choice, a sin we have chosen to commit. 4. In order to be saved, one must turn from this and from all sin.

So I would imagine Christ would embrace a gay person no differently than someone that has say ,lied.


But then again it goes on the deaf ears of hate and a history of mommy done me wrong.

Aunty M- TK does that on every subject he rambles about... which is every subject there is.

Awe come on Steely just because I mash your potato head on every issue

I have spent alot of time in Idaho Elk and deer hunting
since the 70's and know a few ranchers in state. No native Idahonian I know shares your views. You must be a import.

TK, there are also things like avarice and vanity somewhere in that text of yours. Why is it all right for you to continue to point fingers at others, when you leave out the interpretations that would chide you for the things that you do? If I am not mistaken then there is also a passage about turning the other cheek also,when do we get to see this side of you?

SSF,

You can take any text in the bible out of context and make it what you want. Which is what you have done. Thats not the intent of the book. The book should be treated as a whole and using rules of interpretation as proscribed by biblical scholars forces you to keep things in context . You might see it as pointing fingers because someone challenges your worldview in a discussion. On sin in general I suggest you research it for yourself. It will mean more if you answer that question yourself.

Damn it King I forgot that your an " what people in Idaho are like expert as well " I should have concidered that I guess.

Just to let you know, not like you don't already... Most people in Idaho are like ( Mormons) and they are quite sure that both you and I are going to hell... unless of course you happen to be a Mormon. ( in that case you are a god on earth and just waiting to go claim your own kingdom )

Kinda fits your personality.... or at a minimum sounds appealing to you ????

Chided by the mis-informed has never set well with me, You are the one that has taken these out of context, because ,everyone shall have the opportunity to define the bible as they shall. The real test is within yourself, each person defines who and what they are.To stand on the sidelines and profess to be the all and knowing, while telling everyone else how to live,think,have sex,vote or whatever does not exonerate you.
Pompousity and avarice are also sins, and let us remember the best one, "Let ye among us without sin, cast the first stone"
Perhaps you should do more reflecting than professing!..................Fishy.

Damn it King I forgot that your an " what people in Idaho are like expert as well " I should have concidered that I guess.

Just to let you know, not like you don't already... Most people in Idaho are like ( Mormons) and they are quite sure that both you and I are going to hell... unless of course you happen to be a Mormon. ( in that case you are a god on earth and just waiting to go claim your own kingdom )

Kinda fits your personality.... or at a minimum sounds appealing to you ????

SSf

"Chided by the mis-informed has never set well with me," Maybe not but being mis-informed seems to have set well with you.

"everyone shall have the opportunity to define the bible as they shall"

I am trying to decide if that is more ignorant than your rant about Bush stealing the election in Fla. ?

H20 - it sounds like your 'page' is still blank...


To many drugs, mushrooms, alcohol, crappy music - they all tend to produce 'blank pages'. But I really don't know if you do any or all of that, I'm just taking a shot in the dark...

But have no fear. As the 'great JFKerry' has fore-told: "Help is on the way!!"

B Run,

30 years ago there where almost no Mormons in Idaho it is a recent thing. Mormons now out number Jews in the world. Mormons are nice people just misinformed. I will take them over liberals ( Morons)however as they are a much better class of misinformed.

What..... Its a recent thing... Turn down your police scanner so you can hear what your saying