Subject: some quotes


The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in
fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ."
~ Thomas Jefferson


"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae
been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made
them the most bloody religion that ever existed.
~ John Adams


"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of
Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in
all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility
in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
~ James Madison


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or
confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly
to one another."
~ Benjamin Franklin


"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the
worst."
~ Thomas Paine

Is there a point you are trying to make?

I agree with the general message of these alleged quotes.

Mankind continually takes what was intended for good, and turns it into something evil to serve his own selfish gains. Nothing new here...

These "Founding Fathers" did a great thing by giving Christianity and government a fresh start - separating the corrupt bond that had formed over the centuries between "The Church" and the various ruling parties across Europe.

PP

The founding fathers did not care for Christianity or formal religions, they were actually Deists. They believed in God just not Christianity.

Jefferson was biblically correct but what is missing of course is the context. The Church of England and catholic church ruled the world in those days with an Iron fist. They fought for freedom from that type of opression. Biblically both curches and others where apostate and the clergy was elevasted above the layperson. You cannot read too much into it and certainly not spin it with modern context that they where anti religon. The net effect of their expirience was very wise that the govt. should not influence what religon it's people practice.

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We'll just pretend you didn't say that LT

I don't want to see another long drawn out thread where you try to convince everyone that the 'newly discovered' 60 Minute National Guard documents are real.
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"The net effect of their experience was very wise that the govt. should not influence what religon it's people practice"--TK

That's what most of the left doesn't understand in interpeting the Federalist Papers---The idea was (and is) 'Freedom OF Relgion'---not freedom FROM religion.

Don't pretend I didn't say it because I am correct.

a religious thesis delivered by someone against religion is ridiculous. Religious arguments always end up the same....in a name calling battle.

Ahhh Rory, Rory, Rory... It's the... ready for this... SAME FREAKIN' THING!

You are BOTH free to practice whatever religion you choose AND free from having a State-sponsored religion forced upon you.

Boy, I tell ya... them right-wing evangelical extremists sure do have a tough time grasping that concept... :p

4 Salt,

"You are BOTH free to practice whatever religion you choose "

Thats great news. The kids where concerned about the Christmas ban at their school. They have to call it the holiday season in thier class. Kinda neat being free to practice what you want.

Ya the entire name change is rediculous

However whatever you call it you are still free on your break to celebrate the Holiday if you choose.

Those on the left are so afraid that religion will be forced down their throats that they go to great lengths to make sure the majority of folks who have a faith don't get to practice it. Kind of a twisted sense of fairness. A tiny minority can shove things down the majority's throat like not calling Christmas, Christmas. What a shame.

Oh and because of a name change by a dumb ass school board now you cannot celebrate Christmas???? Give me a break and learn the true meaning of Christmas.

So... are you cancelling Christmas at home king? Ya gonna call it something else? If not, then you've just exercised your right to celebrate the holiday season however you choose.

Oh and by the way... now your kids know how Jewish kids must feel when nobody else is celebratin' Channukah.


p.s. Gramps - I don't wanna force ANYBODY to do ANYTHING... just like I don't want anyone else to force ME to do anything.


Live and let live...

Grandpa,

Twisted is as twisted does, perhaps? That is, altho I'm perplexed at calling Christmas vacation the winter holiday, that just may be what you get when you righties associate yourselves with the right wing religious whackos who would insert their religious positions in my government's Constitution. Things like Constitutional amendments prohibiting gay marriage and abortion. It's not that I'm for (or against) either of those, but I don't want my government, and certainly not my Constitution, to have any part of either, for or against.

Believe it or not, it's distasteful for me to come off sounding anti-religion, but the Christian Right (which is neither) seems so intent on blending their religious positions with U.S. law, that I feel compelled to be equally extreme and oppose any and all mixing of practically anything religious with anything government related. My contempt for the Christian Right approximates my contempt for the Taliban, for about the same reason: a lack of tolerance.

Intolerance begets intolerance. No wonder the U.S. has become so polarized.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Good post Salmo

4 Salt,
"You are BOTH free to practice whatever religion you choose"
"So... are you cancelling Christmas at home king? "

I thought fre was free and meant I did not have to go home to pracitice my religon.

You and LT missed some very important points. It's not the school or it officals calling it Christmas or forcing anyone to call it Christmas. It's the simple suggestion when the teacher asks how should we decorate , or the kids making a christmas card. that infringes upon no ones rights and it is even an opportunity for the teacher to teach about the diversity of belief or non- belief in the world. Instead the kids get a different picture.
Bottom line you do not have to discriminate to allow certain things to take place. But people could care less that Christians are offended by exlusion.

Salmo,

I challenge you to post an example of laws or regulations based on Christian priniciples passed in the last 4 years. Just one if you can?

King

Children in schools would be a lot better off practicing math in school and making Christmas cards at home.
Just my .02

LT,

Making Christmas card requires math and presents a world of possible lessons tied to geography,history,social studies,music ,literature etc.

Gotta love the leftie extremists - comparing Bush to Hitler and Christians to the Taliban...

"based on Christian priniciples "

Faith cover all religions .

Those intitatives are based on fairness not faith BTW. Faith based charities where excluded from reciving federal funds.

Try again!

Let's just say that Christmas will be Christmas in our home and leave it at that. It is a healthy tradition and brings lots of joy to the family. We won't be forcing anyone to join us and we won't criticize anyone for doing their own thing. We hope no one will try to force their disdain for what we believe on us.

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BUT MONKEY


Sincerely,

Rory b.

Okay, tit-for-tat time.

Gotta love the radical right evangelical fanatics that can't discuss something rationally without resulting to character assasination and labeling.

So there. You're turn. :rolleyes:

80% of the country is opposed to gay marriage and they are not all Christian. The majority of people that watch and play NFL games are Christian does that make it a Christian sport?

The constitution in no way was designed to protect the minority. That notion comes from activist attys and judges interpretation. It was designed to ensure every one has equal rights. There is a mile of difference in those two interpretations.
I have no view on gays. They are people just like everyone else. When it comes to marriage there is no discrimination as gays and straights have the same rights. The only reason to ammend the const. is to stop judges from making law.

Grandpa

Good post

"stop someone from enjoying "equal rights""

Not one attny in the US has been able to prove that there is a violation of equal rights Re: Gay marriage. Look at any of the 1000's of court cases. Not one time for a very good reason. Gays have 100% of the rights that straight people have.

PP,

Although you seem intent on preserving the internet BB tradition of misunderstanding, please try reading again. Slowly. Nowhere did I compare Christians to the Taliban. I employed the polite term “Christian Right (which is neither)” in place of what I usually refer to as “right wing religious whackos.” And yes, there is a legitimate comparison in that both are extremely intolerant of differing belief or opinion. Kind of like you seem to be, based on what I observe of you here. Can you accept a “live and let live” philosophy?

Aunty,

Thanks for the complement!, even if it isn’t true. And the example.

Grandpa,

Couldn’t agree with you more. I value the family holiday tradition, including the Christmas Eve midnight service. My biggest issue with the holiday season while I was raising my family was relegating the commercial ostentatiousness to a minor role, while accentuating the values of family tradition and service. Because Christmas is such a huge secular commercial event, I found that was always a hard balance to strike. My kids are adults now, living in the other Washington, so now the focus is on creating time to share together, and I like it a lot.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

How so? They still can marry anyone that you or I can giving them the same rights.. An amendment simply stops Federal judges for legislating from the bench. It does not efffect gays or straights at all.

You really should undersstand the issue first. Then understand the legal process.

Agreed. But the fanatical evangelicals want you to believe that gays can marry anyone just like you and I can ... as long as they are the opposite gender. So in reality they have to marry someone the zealots approve of, not someone they love and desire. And that is discriminitory.

Harley,

"not someone they love and desire. And that is discriminitory."


Show me where those are rights granted in the const. or where the Supreme court has held them up ? For some reason you think you are smarter than every attny in the nation with that definition of discrimination. If it was that simple Bill Gates would be broke in Spanaway and you would be living in Medina.

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Always a Brides maid.....never a Bride.

Salmo.....You know when I think about it seriously, I can only remember growing up with a large Norwegian family and being surrounded by relatives on holidays and especially Christmas. We usually got one gift which we really appreciated. In fact, I have an old deer skin drum my dad had made by an indian tribe when I was 5...I watched an old family movie of that Christmas so long ago just the other day. And not only that but that very drum hangs right here on my wall today.

Nowadays my kids are not surrounded by those simple and kind hearted Norwegians as they are all dead. They would never sit still for only one present. But they still make things with their own hands for dad because they know those are the things I cherish. Why are we at each other's throats so much about who offends whom with their beliefs? Why are so many embarassed to say they believe in this or that opting out instead to get along and call Christmas the winter holiday or some such boring nonsense. Christmas and Thanksgiving are times to say thanks for all we have and thanks for all of the loving family members and friends we surround ourselves with. I have never given one thought to those holidays being some sort of political cause.

I could not aree more.
PS I have 50% of that Norwegian blood in me Grandpa.

My Dad is 100%, Guess my Mom screwed up the gene pool.

I'm the last in our family to be 100%. I sure miss all those wonderful kind hearted Norwegians...Not many left who can speak the language. Closest I get to that anymore is Ikea commercials.

My Grandma used to be speak Norwegian but after living in the US for so many years she has forgotten a lot of it

JLH you missed one
"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded" James Madison the 4th President

Is that the God of Fire, Ice or Wind