Lots of yak on both sides. In your opinion was the operation a strategic success in breaking the insurgency or a failure. Long term or short term?

Hard to say.........it may still be too early to tell.

I'll just say that I don't think it was a very good idea to announce plans for the operation in advance of launching it.

If you are looking to eliminate the insurgents, then why warn them?

My only knock on this operation kind of falls in line with Dan's. We didn't get the leaders. I would assume that didn't happen because they knew we were coming. Other Than that I would say success.

I agree Dan, it's too early to tell. Whether this particular battle is a success or not, I believe the real question is whether the majority of Iraqi natives view the US as concurrers or liberators. If we are viewed as liberators, then the number of insurgents should diminish. Otherwise, they will constantly be re-constituting themselves and we will never win the peace, i.e. Viet Nam. We may win battles, but if the Iraqi people don't want us there, this will be a complete waste.

I agree that this is a hard call. History, as usual, will decide.

One things for sure is that the Marines are fully capable of urban warfare. I think that the insurgents learned that the Marines are a whole lot worse then any Air Force "Shock and Awe." The mission was a success in that the Marines wiped out the enemy (ain't heard a lot about any survivors) in what may go down as one of the great military operations in a long time. I don't think the battle of Fallujah will be a great Al Queda training video.

I'm not real sure if that will lead to stratigic victory though.

-----------------------------------------------------------

I heard that the plan/timing was 'announced/leaked' to the media in advance of the operation to fool the insurgents and make them show their hand as to what they had planned to do when we went in to help minimize our casualties--if that's true it may have been a wise move by the military/intellegence community.

After thinking about it, I'm not sure what would have been the right move.

Advanced notice gives the planners/higher-ups in the "organization" time to slip away, while their followers stay behind to fight.

Not giving advanced notice could have led to excessive civilian deaths and a backlash from the civilian residents of the city.

It's sure been ugly in the region in the last couple weeks, though. I'd hate to be the one to formulate a strategy at this point.

I'd really hate to be the guy putting corpses into bags.

I agree with the previous - too early to tell.

Top Stories - Reuters


Report: CIA Paints Pessimistic Iraq Picture

Tue Dec 7, 7:35 AM ET Top Stories - Reuters



NEW YORK (Reuters) - The situation in Iraq (news - web sites) is unlikely to improve anytime soon, according to a classified cable and briefings from the CIA (news - web sites), The New York Times reported on Tuesday.


Reuters Photo



The assessments are more pessimistic than the Bush administration's portrayal of the situation to the public, government officials told the newspaper.


The classified cable -- sent last month by the CIA's station chief in Baghdad after the completion of a one-year tour of duty there -- painted a bleak picture of Iraq's politics, economics and security and reiterated briefings by Michael Kostiw, a senior CIA official, according to the Times.


The station chief cannot be identified because he is still working undercover, the Times added.


The cable, described as "unusually candid," cautioned that security in the country is likely to deteriorate unless the Iraqi government makes significant progress in asserting its authority and building up the economy, the paper said.


Spokesmen for the White House and the CIA told the Times that they could not discuss intelligence matters and classified documents.

Sounds like we should bag the idea of a democracy for those backwards heathens and rain some bunker busters down on the mosques and perhaps level the place except the oil fields which we should just occupy. Looks like we may have to do the same in Saudi Arabia some day soon too. A few Tridents on Iran and we're all set.

if you look at afganistan, it was a failure. after the u.s liberated the country, they were given freedom. i dont know of past statistic, but afganistan is the #1 opium grower in the world. what will happen to iraq once the u.s. withdraws most of their troops.

Let me see...hmmmmm OH I know...Iraq will be the #2 opium supplier???

99 out of 100 morticians agree

FALLUJAH HUGE SUCCESS!!

And if we had left Fallujah in the hands of the terrorists it would have been 100 out of 100.

------------------------------------------------------------

Check Mate!

I wish I could have the same sentiments as you Aunty with regard to Iraq. I personally do not forsee any tidier an exit to Iraq as was in Vietnam. With that said, it was the questioning of the commanders choices that ultimately helped get us out of Vietnam. So I am not convinced questioning the choices made in Iraq is the wrong move.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for those soldiers that grilled Rumsfeld yesterday. I'm sure the answers given to them quelled all of their concerns. You know, answers like "you go to war with the military you have not the one you want?". Boy must be nice for them soldiers to know that they were all we had not what we wanted to send...

At least there was some pleasure in watching him squirm like a worm in front of the soldiers. Ultimately I feel it is the soldiers and their families this administration needs to answer to. Time will tell...

That was deep Waky real deep. I bet Rummy really gives a hoot what you think.

Tommy Franks said today that the lag time on the armor is not a "want " on the pentagons part but a reality of the shifting nature of war. Supply has been unable to keep up with demand. He felt Rummy would only see the comments as constructive and try to fix the problem ASAP.


RUMSFELD SET UP; REPORTER PLANTED QUESTIONS WITH SOLIDER
Thu Dec 09 2004 11:49:38 ET

Chattanooga Times Free Press reporter Edward Lee Pitts is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, now in Kuwait preparing to enter Iraq, and is filing articles for his newspaper. Pitts claims in a purported email that he coached soldiers to ask Defense Secretary Rumsfeld questions!

From: EDWARD LEE PITTS, MILITARY AFFAIRS
Sent: Wednesday, December 8, 2004 4:44 PM
To: Staffers

Subject: RE: Way to go

I just had one of my best days as a journalist today. As luck would have it, our journey North was delayed just long enough see I could attend a visit today here by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. I was told yesterday that only soldiers could ask questions so I brought two of them along with me as my escorts. Before hand we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld about the appalling lack of armor their vehicles going into combat have. While waiting for the VIP, I went and found the Sgt. in charge of the microphone for the question and answer session and made sure he knew to get my guys out of the crowd.

So during the Q&A session, one of my guys was the second person called on. When he asked Rumsfeld why after two years here soldiers are still having to dig through trash bins to find rusted scrap metal and cracked ballistic windows for their Humvees, the place erupted in cheers so loud that Rumsfeld had to ask the guy to repeat his question. Then Rumsfeld answered something about it being "not a lack of desire or money but a logistics/physics problem." He said he recently saw about 8 of the special up-armored Humvees guarding Washington, DC, and he promised that they would no longer be used for that and that he would send them over here. Then he asked a three star general standing behind him, the commander of all ground forces here, to also answer the question. The general said it was a problem he is working on.

The great part was that after the event was over the throng of national media following Rumsfeld- The New York Times, AP, all the major networks -- swarmed to the two soldiers I brought from the unit I am embedded with. Out of the 1,000 or so troops at the event there were only a handful of guys from my unit b/c the rest were too busy prepping for our trip north. The national media asked if they were the guys with the armor problem and then stuck cameras in their faces. The NY Times reporter asked me to email him the stories I had already done on it, but I said he could search for them himself on the Internet and he better not steal any of my lines. I have been trying to get this story out for weeks- as soon as I foud out I would be on an unarmored truck- and my paper published two stories on it. But it felt good to hand it off to the national press. I believe lives are at stake with so many soldiers going across the border riding with scrap metal as protection. It may be to late for the unit I am with, but hopefully not for those who come after.

The press officer in charge of my regiment, the 278th, came up to me afterwords and asked if my story would be positive. I replied that I would write the truth. Then I pointed at the horde of national media pointing cameras and mics at the 278th guys and said he had bigger problems on his hands than the Chattanooga Times Free Press. This is what this job is all about - people need to know. The solider who asked the question said he felt good b/c he took his complaints to the top. When he got back to his unit most of the guys patted him on the back but a few of the officers were upset b/c they thought it would make them look bad. From what I understand this is all over the news back home.

Thanks,

Lee

EDWARD LEE PITTS FILED STORY ABOUT THE TROOPS BEFORE THE POW-WOW WITH RUMSFELD

Developing...

Did I offend you on the other thread so you had to try and slam me here? What was that about me getting a life????

For the record, I was not trying to be deep but trying to respond to Aunty's post and post my own thoughts on that subject. If you interpret that as trying to be deep so be it. It does make me wonder how deep one can be with a cut-n-paste?

I am to assume all the cheers that came after the question were other planted soldiers instructed to cheer for that particular question?

Waky,

I do not get easily offended so knock yourself out.


In no way shape or form can Iraq even remotely be compared to vietnam and even the most learned libs hung that up a year ago. Rummy was really shaking in his boots
and the soldier really dogged him according to you and Katie Couric.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that they are not comparable. It is my feeling that the war in Iraq is an unpopular war just as the Vietnam war proved unpopular. Yep, you are right they are completely uncomparable. Wow answered my own question, your wisdom and benevolence must be wearing off on me...

Apparently you did not see the video of the Q&A session with Rummy and the soldiers. If you had you would have seen Rummy squirming like I said, not "shaking in his boots" as you insinuated I said.

Waky,

I saw it and it appears you saw what you wanted. If you want to compare one element of each war and then call them comparable it would be like saying a Kenworth and a Corvette are comparable because they both have wheels. Read up a little bit on Vietnam pup, and then come back and show me a comparison.

Aunty, Well my attempt to have decent conversation with you on the subject was certainly detoured by no other then his hindass! Sorry it went that way.

I was serious when I said I wish I could have the same sentiments as you on the subject. I have the utmost respect for people in the service. I was a Navy brat and grew up in a military household. I want to support the decisions of the commanders and our commander in chief but I have a really hard time when I fundamentally disagree.

I know that labels me as lib in the mind of some here on the board. If it were true I wouldn't mind the label as I don't think there is anything wrong with being a "lib". We have all benefited one way or another from liberal ideas whether we choose to admit it or not.

It is sad when adults (I assume most here are adults though I have my doubts) are incapable of accepting or tolerating others views. It is that incapability in our country that is further driving a wedge in America. The lame part is for those of us in the middle we feel forced to choose sides. I don't know how many others out there felt they did not have a choice between candidates that represented their values and beliefs. I know I felt short changed at the ballot box. Hopefully we can introduce a few more parties to our political process to get better representation for those in the middle.

My Kenworth has 36 inch wheels but my corvette only has 23 inch wheels. Yep, two more things that can't be compared your example clarified your point perfectly.

I am ashamed at how much my degrees cost especially now knowing I could have gotten one for 35 cents. Oh wait, stamps were only 15 cents in those days.

Waky,

Quit puffing out your internet chest and put your degrees to work and give us your indepth heady comparison of the Vietnam conflict and the Iraq war .

BTW I have owned several Corvettes which year and model had the 23" wheels :p

Great post Aunty!!!

the only thing you need to accept you dolt is that BOTH WARS WERE UNPOPULAR for the comparison to be valid. Unless of course you are the type that plugs their ears and sings 'la, la, la, la, lala' whenever someone tears their arguments asunder.

Once again your lack of skill in devloping a cogent argument on ANY SUBJECT have proven that, when it comes to education, you get what you pay for.

Don't you have some fiberglass resin to huff, I mean 'mix'?

Every idiot knows that corvettes don't come stock with 23 inch wheels. :rolleyes: Mine are custom.

But you certainly proved your point that a corvette cannot be compared to a Kenworth jut like vietnam is totally incomparable to Iraq. Maybe you should have tried to make it to your logic class a little more often.

Hey, they used guns in both wars too. I think you guys are on to something....

H20,

I could take your opinion and a pop bottle to the bank and walk out with $.05 for the pop bottle.

Waky,

So I have it straight you have a 19 inch wheel from the factory as the largest offered. Put on a z rated tire and your overall profile dia is maybe 22" max and you take a custom 23" wheel pushing your overall profile up . The Ground clearance on the car is 3.5" so it has to go up. Your are talking about rebuilding and redesigning the entire suspension. You are a moron for doing such or your are talking out your ARSE. I vote the latter.Sounds like you have a wigger Tahoe at most. You know as much about cars as a 5 year old.

Oh boy I'm busted! I know nothing about corvettes and my car knowledge is as good as a 5 year old. I'm so ashamed I owe everyone an apology for taking King Richard's lame assed example and demonstrating how absurd his assertion was. I should have never entered the corvette arena with King Richard as he is an expert on them just like every other topic to ever be discussed in these forums. I have seen the light, now if only the other 8000 board members can come to terms that King richard is the all seeing all knowing pompous ass of the world, wouldn't life be grand.

God forbid you would have used a Yugo in your example. I would have really been hosed then, my knowledge of Yugos is even less then Corvettes. Ohhhhhhh the shame!

Let me beat you to your next post Richard.

Waky,

Your knowledge of this fishing board mirrors that of my goat. There are not 8000 board members on this forum. You are either a total twit or incapable of reading numbers everyone and their pets know that the total number of people registered to this board is only 4573. That would mean only 4571 people need to see the light that I am an expert on everything and a pompous ass to boot. Since your math is so poor I'll break down my numbers for you. 4573 registered users, you are already converted -1, and I already know I'm a pompous ass thats another -1. Take 2 from 4573 and you are left 4571. Simple enough for you there Wako? I have now proven it is a verifiable fact, I know more than anyone else and I am a pompous ass!

"The Benevolent" King Richard


I may have missed a slam or two but I'm pretty sure that covers the gist of what your next post would have been. Of course I'm checking with you as you do know everything.

Wacky,

Lets hear all about Vietnam and 23" Corvettte wheels and all your valuable degrees. So far you have folded on all three fronts. tsk tsk three lies and three strikes shame on you pup!

Hardly folded on three fronts. I never claimed to be an expert on Vietnam, I simply compared the popularity of Vietnam to my perception of the popularity of Iraq. It was you who asserted that the two were completely incomparable. Why don't you enlighten the rest of us uneducated baboons as to why Vietnam and Iraq are completely incomparable?

If admitting I know nothing about Corvettes is folding well you got me. We got on the subject of Corvettes when you tried to back up your claim that comparing Vietnam to Iraq is like comparing a Kenworth to a Corvette. I don't think anyone including my daughter needs to know anything about either vehicle to understand your analogy couldn't hold water.

Obviously you don't get it. I'm a King richard believer now! I'm desperately waiting for you to tell me how Vietnam and Iraq are completely incomparable!!!!

Wacky,

"I simply compared the popularity of Vietnam to my perception of the popularity of Iraq."

First you compared Vietnam to Irag in terms of exit or motivation to exit saying it was questioning the command that motivated the exit. That is just not the case. You then side stepped made the popularity the focus. I never disagreed with the popularity issue.


"It was you who asserted that the two were completely incomparable."

They are and many many experts have made that case. The liberals tried and failed over a year ago to draw that comparison only to have been routed by historical and factual arguements. Certainly you can draw a few parallels but from front to back the differences are glaring. Namely , It is a delared war, It's an all volunteer Army, the troops support the war, the populace of Iraq supports the war without getting into strategy and politics on the side of Islamo facist and the west..

So you are saying public opinion of the Vietnam conflict had nothing to do with our troops ultimately being removed?

My assertion was and still is that public opinion had a tremendous amount to do with our withdrawal from Vietnam. I liken Iraq to that scenario as I believe public opinion on this war is and has been changing since its inception. Questioning our commander in chiefs decisions as well as those commanders responsible for carrying out the commander in chief directives is an action the public can take to express their opinion. Therefore I do not think questioning is a bad thing.

Perhaps public opinion got the troops out of Vietnam. Public opinion definately cost countless thousands of American soldiers their lives. The public sentiment and the protests they staged pushed politicians in to making decisions that the military should have made. Please be careful on this slippery slope.

That's a point well worth thinking about.

Although I am not sure I am familiar with what you are referring to when saying "Public opinion definately cost countless thoushands of American soldiers lives."? I guess I am really asking is how?

Waky,

Not at all. Public opinion definately effected the decision process and the press played a major role. It was the first war fouhgt in front of instant media like TV. Where avg. people could see images that could give them a sense of what was happening hoever biased it may have been. They tried the same thing and it has not worked to date in Iraq. They tried to effect the outcome of the election and cost several hundred US lives and countless lives of Iraqi's. Bush & company are determined not to let that happen in this war. The press role is to report the facts in an unbiased role. Then the people can make up thier mind. All the unbiased stuff I have read and fisrt hand conversations tell me we are on the right course. the majority of the Iraqi people feel the same way the troops fighting the war feel the same. Have you seen thatin the popular press? When is the last time you sa the nightly news open with American troops giving their rations and supplies to school aged kids in the streets of iraq or playing soccer with the locals? all but two provinces in Iraq are peaceful and safe with people living free for the first time in 40 years. Ever hear that from the press or Jim Mcdermott?

Wailuku:

My point was that public opinion affected military decisions on both sides.

There was a doccumentary on the history channel about the Air-war in Vietmnam and the American Pilots held in the Hanoi Hilton that demonstrated one example fairly well. In the Doccumentary they interviewed one of these pilots who actualy met Ho Chi Min while being held there (I am pretty sure it was John McCain). Ho Chi Min told the pilot that "the war would be won not in the jungles of Vietnam, but on the streets of Washington and New York". The North Vietnamese tailored their propaganda campaign to insight the population at home. They brought in American celebrities to Hanoi, and took them on guided tours of the bombed areas. They reported that the targets we were bombing were schools etc... As the war went on the North Vietnamese propaganda machine pumped out more and more redical claims. As their claims increased the violence in the streets increased. The actions of the protestors and public opinion in general undoubtedly encouraged the North Vietnamese and helped to prolong the war. That inturn cost thousands of American Soldiers thier lives.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying we should follow our leaders blindly. We just need to be careful how the message is sent.


I don't have much time today. If I get a few spare moments I will find some articles and possibly the name of that doccumentary for you.

It was a special on PBS The American Expirience a segment called "Return with Honor" and James Stockdale was the POW.
One of the toughest men in the history of the world.

------------------------------------------------------------
Lenin would have called them 'Useful Idiots'


The Vietnamese communists that killed over 50,000 Americans call John Kerry and Jane Fonda heroes:

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=puppets

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040531140357545

And the so-called 'enlightened' people called him their choice for president.

I'll keep an eye out for that documentary. I have been following most of the "american experience" series so I am a bit surprised I missed that one.

Did they indicate that we were targeting those schools or that those schools etc... were bombed inadvertantly? Was there a clear distinction?

Rory, it is somewhat ironic that you cut-n-paste links that refer to Kerry's participation (known or unkown neither can be proved) in Vietnam's propaganda machine and your links are to a right wing propaganda machine on the internet. Propaganda is propaganda no matter if it is supporting your beliefs or not.

It's not use. I've pointed out to Krusty numerous times - even with transcripts of sworn Senate testimony - that his references to Kerry and Vietnam's war hero status is completely bogus. He refuses to acknowledge the truth. I'm afraid he's hopeless.

Not that he'd quit whining anyway.

Waky,

You can also check out "Vietnam: the 10,000 Day War" a documentary from the 80's. It's 13 hours long but very well done. I think you may have to get it from the library.

I am a Vietnam war history buff so I will think of more .