Amen, regardless of your personal beliefs, you can recognize Christmas as a time for family, for giving, and for love. Lets not lose sight of that

Hahaha, yes, you have my "sanction" to perform whatever rituals you deem appropriate

oh goodie, someone WITH a brain that would like to engage in conversation...

...this might be good.

Your assumption about my religious philosophies is, as are most such assumptions, faulty. I'm not sure specifically what words I typed that led you to that inference as I have been diligent in keeping my religious philosophies to myself. I do however rail against religious intolerance of any kind because after all, we do live in a country where you are supposed to be free to worship/believe as you choose. My railings come from what I feel are the erosion of that freedom in this country....

First, on dinosaurs...

Yes, I am fully aware that 65 million years is the generally accepted time frame for the extinction of dinosaurs. Some frequent posters in here have espoused a strictly biblical interpretation of creationism. What's the difference between 65 million and one million to people who believe the earth and all of the life thereon is only 13, 000 years old?

On ancestry...you are missing the exposition of a thousand fanatical religious posts, my friend. The 'joke' I was attempting to belittle was made by someone who believes that modern man was created in its current form and has not evolved from one species to another. Since you seem to be as interested in the sciences as I am, you must know that the best scientific evidence suggests otherwise, regardless of the overall ability of Darwin's theories to hold water. My words were directed at someone who actually believes his ancestors, modern form, walked with the dinosaurs. If not that, then some other cockamamie explanation for the bones of dinosaurs.

I can see how in your eyes the joke might have failed, but rest assured, there are others here that know of which I speak.

on evolution....

I think Darwinian evolutionary theory is flawed....that said, evolution of species has been repeatedly observed in nature, super-bacteria being a prime example. Other examples include the disparate ways homo sapiens have evolved geographically and insects that develop resistance to pesticides. So.....Evolution as dogma or an umbrella philosophy? No I don't believe.....but, to say that life forms do not evolve would be erroneous in the least.

If I were to characterize my beliefs in some way it would be agnostic with a lean towards intelligent creation of some kind....I base that lean on observation of nature and evidence such as you pointed out....DNA, the prevalence of the golden ratio and fractal gemetry in the design of living things....observable order in what we usually see as chaos.

I freely admit, probably too often, that I am under-educated in the traditional sense. The one way that works to my advantage is that I am never chained to what I've learned or believe. This flexibility, imo, is what allows my philosphies to evolve (excuse the expression) and not stagnate in 'rightdom'.

lastly....

What is wrong with pointing out the hypocrisy of someone who shouts 'hypocrite'? Isn't that what the poster of this thread is doing if not directly, by inference?

....and you have to admit, admonishing non-christians for particpating in christian celebrations is awfully hypocritical coming from a group that stole half of its religious symbolism from the pagans of pre-christian europe. Sorry....that might be a bit of a stab in the dark for you there, it may be more like sixty five percent......

BTW....I didn't detect any disrespect in your post.

"It always amuses me when people try to make others look stupid and fail."

Sounds like you'll really like this site then....

"Unless you LIKE bigotry and hatred."

In the other post as well as this, I think he's already figured out who the bigots and hate speakers are....

Sounds like a sensible guy who doesn't take himself or internet forums too seriously....

Lucky for me I passed the important one years ago.

As a card carrying Agnostic I have to say some of the biggest hypocrits I've met have started off the conversation, "well, you know I'm a christian........" and then they go on to tell me about their illegitamate child they had with the waitress of the restaurant they own, or how there was a misunderstanding between him and his wife and the police and that is how he ended up in the police reports, or how the pastor of a large church talked about how he "jewed" the seller of prospective church property down in price..., or how a business owner is agressive in his tax planning (meaning he doesn't count cash sales towards his annual total sales revenue).

Yeah, then you look at the Catholics and the Protestants, who basically believe in the same bible, except for being able to wear French ticklers on their tallywhackers, so they go to war for a few hundred years in Ireland.

How 'bout them folks from Islam, the fastest growing religion in the world, who proclaim a fatwah (sp?) and decide to strap 20 pounds of C4 and nails to a vest and walk into a mall and vaporize 20 or so people in the name of their God.

Jimmy Swaggart is another good example of a good christian man. Yeah, preach about sin and such, then hire a hooker for a regular date so he can bend her over a couch.

Catholics again, let's see, hmmm...... How about we protect priests who are doing God's work, which means didling little boys, then move them around from dioscese to dioscese, not letting anybody know, so they can continue to do God's work to many little boys, and destroy their lives. Even better, how about just going bankrupt, then refuse to pay settlements to the people they have harmed. Heck, it was only a matter of institutional policy to protect the privacy of the priests involved.

Sorry if I seem a little jaded. I just do my best to be a good man, and to teach my boys to do the same. They go to Sunday school with their friends, and I will let them make their own choice, as my dad let me.

The people who have to wear their religion on their sleeve are usually making up for some past transgression, or are hiding something they are currently involved in.

If you want to be religious, great! Keep it to yourself.

Every religion has examples of this, not just individuals, but insitutional policies that go against the teachings of the Bible, Koran, or Torah.

I just try to build up Karma. Do something good for someone, and they, or someone else, will eventually return the favor. Just concentrate on being good humans. Shouldn't that be enough?

Give that man a cigar! Very well said.

YA, what dogfish said.

A bumper sticker I saw says it all..

Jesus, please save us from your followers.

Nothing wrong with God.. its every other morons desire for you to see him the exact same way he does that gets old.

It would seem to me, that most " Christians" are really just looking for some type of validation that they are " Indeed a higher form of individual "... and that God loves them best... what a bunch of B.S

"I just try to build up Karma... Shouldn't that be enough?"

Karma? Isn't that believing in some sort of higher power? Basically 'religion lite', like 'lite beer'?

Seriously though, you are all free to believe what you want. No one is trying to convince you otherwise - just have an open dialogue.

Personally, I beleive in the Jesus, as revealed to us in the Bible - the Book I beleive God inspired so that we could know Him.

You may feel differently - fine with me.

I'm no better than anyone else and I've never said or even thought as much.

I didn't say I was an atheist, just an agnostic.

I see many people who use religion as a way to divide people, not bring them together. That is what creates the doubt in my mind. We have fought many wars over the centuries based on religion. Most of the Gods in the main religions have the same origins, with a similar message delivered through a different prophet. So then we fight wars, saying God is on "our" side. Well, if it is the "same God", how does he choose?

I'm not trying to get into some deep conversation, just pondering need to make things difficult.

Assume a man, born in the wilderness, to parents who never knew of religion, and I live a good life, being good to those around me. 1000 miles away there people who have read this book and believe it, and they sin, but then ask for forgiveness. Will the man in the wilderness be doomed to go to hell while the person who has read the book, and not been able to follow it to the letter go to heaven?

Sounds kind of holier than thou to me.

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad to hear that despite your own personal reservations you're open minded enough to allow your children to go to Sunday School and are giving them an opportunity to come to their own conclusions.

Damn, Dogfish, looks like your wilderness dude is doomed.

Oh but I'm sure some Bible-quoter will come along and give us the, "well, it's different in this case" speech. Gotta love the way they memorize every verse and then twist the interpretation to fit their argument. Of course if you challenge them with another verse, well, you're just an ignorant heathen that hasn't learned the umpteen different ways to study the bible set down by some obscure theologian that the self-proclaiming masters of wisdom have witnessed as the only true interpretation.

Could you imagine standing on the river bank fishing and the guy next to you starts quoting verses from "Float Fishing for Steelhead" or "The Guide to Driftfishing," pointing out how you're doing it all wrong?

For those of us that have come to a conclusion realize there's only one desirable place to go after death -- it doesn't matter what road you take to get there. For those that haven't come to the same conclusion, they'll be just fine, too.

Goharley,

The point I was trying to make is that I believe the Bible (somewhere--I'll find it) makes a distinction between those who HAVE and those who HAVEN'T heard the Good News of Jesus and that you can't be held accountable if you have no knowledge of God or his Son like the person hypothetically described in the wilderness question.

BTW--Some of us believe the Holy Bible is the inspired by God, and some of us don't.

It's a free country and if you choose to only selectively believe the things in the Bible that concur with your own personal belief system--that's your right.


It's pretty telling that you compare quoting the Holy Bible with quoting "Float Fishing for Steelhead" or "The Guide to Driftfishing,"

While I think very highly of the authors who wrote the fishing books you mentioned--- I think more highly of the author of the Holy Bible.

I didn't really expect you to understand the analogy. But since you feel it is so telling, what exactly is it saying, then?

And are you mocking other's beliefs by wishing a "Happy Winter Solstice" rather than a Merry Christmas, or are you just not that strong in your convictions? I personally don't recognize winter solstice, other than it being a natural astrological occurance, nor have I ever given any indication here that I do. So why would you, being a proclaimed Christian, express wishes of a happy winter solstice to me? Should I in return wish you a happy Ramadan?

I don't remember mockery of one's faith as being a desirable trait in the Bible I read.

This thread is like porn, I just can't seem to look away. There's actually a debate about if people even ever heard of religion and quotes from "the book". Holy gob ****e

I love it!!!

No, but I like it!

Ok, I hadn't checked this thread in a day or so and its grown a lot! The most recent comments delve a little too much into the esoteric for me. When it comes to interpretation of religious philosophies, well, to each his own, and you really aren't going to change anyone's mind on an online discussion board.


h20,

Ok, you got me fair and square . If you say that people are free to celebrate Christmas, which has Christian origins, without relating it to its religious roots, can't christians use symbolism that previously had other religious connotations? Either they are both wrong or they are both fine.

I realize that that also points out the hypocricy of this threads origins, but I think that in challenging someone's hypocricy you can't fall victim of the same thing yourself, or you lose whatever argumentative high ground you had.

In any case, I'd just like to say you are clearly very intelligent, and I look forward to seeing your next comment!

Wow, nice hook-set Aix. I can hear the drag screaming! You caught your limit on this one. This arguments been around longer than any of us and will still be debated long after we're gone. We'll know for sure once we're dead...or will we?

Dogfish... You're alright! We've never met but I like your "pay it forward" karma way of being. You will have some fine sons.

Agnostic...for the record. And yes I'll have my pagan Christmas tree. I'll even sing some Christmas carols...maybe "Away in a Manger" for starters.

Camo